My group played a short adventure out of the beginner box that took us to level 5, then we started a larger campaign using the full core rules, and are now at level 2. One of my PCs played a rogue for both, and maybe he's just uncannily good at getting into position, but he has been pretty much always able to flank his target, resulting in his being able to conduct a sneak attack on almost every round of every fight. The result is that he has done probably 75-80% of the total party damage from the day we started (he doesn't hit more often, but that extra d6 bonus damage really beats up these low level NPCs). While no one has complained (they're just happy in their victories), I wonder if there is something I'm missing. It just seems that it's either too much bonus damage or that you can sneak attack too often. Has anyone else seen this, is there anything that can/should be done about it? I have no intention of changing the rules, but if I'm misunderstanding them, that's a different story altogether. Or maybe it's just sneak attack is super-effective at the start and becomes less so as the PCs get higher? Thought?
One other thing, can a rogue use his sneak attack as part of an attack of opportunity - my read of the rules says yes, but I want to be sure.
On a side note - I really think it should have been named something else, I find it hard to call it sneak attack when you're standing right in front of the guy who is taking swings at you, lol, but that's a problem for another day.
Thanks
Sneak Attack and Rogue damage generally falls off a lot compared with what other classes can do as you level. Just enjoy it while you can.
If you have an AoO when flanking or when your opponent is denied their Dex bonus to AC, you should apply Sneak Attack damage.
Sneak attack is very conditional. Lots of creature types are immune, it doesn't work if the target has any concealment (meaning a L20 rogue's sneak attack is completely negated by a lousy Obscuring mist), and rogues are very squishy, so being in melee is a good way to get crushed. Rogues are considered one of the weakest classes in the game.
If the situation is right, yes, you can SA on an AoO.
You can rename any ability, class, feat, skill to anything you desire.
In general it is considered sub par. Keep in mind there are a number of creatures immune to sneak attack. Also when he moves into position be mindful of AOOs on him.
That said if everyone is happy, sounds like you don't have a problem. An agile dangerous opportunist can be hard to pull off, but it seems like your player has it well done.
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As to the SA on an AoO, yes. If the target is flanked or flatfooted he can absolutely get his extra damage on the AoO.
The name Sneak Attack is an unfortunate artifact of design from long before. And you are going to get blasted with a lot of differing opinions, some saying that the rogue sucks, and others saying that your rogue is doing things right and all is as it should be, and others saying you should nerf it down to once a round.
If it works for you, keep doing it. If it doesn't, make some adjustments.
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Elementals and Oozes are immune to sneak attack. Armor of fortification has a % chance to negate any sneak attack. Moving into flanking position will usually provoke an AoO and limit you to a single action. Rogue lack any accuracy enhancers and are a 3/4 bab class.
Low levels are the sweet spot for rogues as most monsters are not immune to damage, and ACs have not begun to outpace the paltry to hit of the rogue. As you move into mid levels, expect the performance to fall.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What other character classes do you have in the party? As others have mentioned, sneak attack can look better than it is (particularly at low levels), and the effectiveness of sneak attack can seem even greater if you don't have another high damage class in the party to provide a benchmark. For example, if you have a barbarian and a rogue in the same party, the former will hit more often and do more damage than the latter.
Bottom line, I'd suggest leaving the class unchanged and playing a little more to get some experience with other classes and their effectiveness.
Edit: Also, don't forget that concealment on the target spoils sneak attack. Of course, the odd thing about this is that the safest place to be when facing a rogue is a dark/shadowy alley...
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The damage is probably competitive. Rogue with twf is getting two hits at 1d6+str+1d6(sneak) with a -2 att. A barbarian with a greatsword is getting 2d6+1.5xstr+3(power attack) with a -1 to att. It is also worth noting your rogue probably has a +1-2 str bonus and the barbarian is going to have a +5-6 str bonus (when raging). Thus your rogue gets on average 16-18 dmg per full attack and the barbarian gets on average 17-19 dmg per full attack. The barbarian also does not need to flank, can move and still get his 1 attack per round, has an attack bonus higher than your rogue (higher modifier from his ranging str and power attack is -1 vs -2 for twf), and he will deal more damage on an AOO. A fighter is getting the same damage as the barbarian minus the 2 points of raging str. A ranger is the same as a fighter with regards to dmg, at this level, except against his favored enemy when he is closer to the barbarian.
The rogue has competitive damage at this level, but will soon get eclipsed by most classes and their damage is reliant on a situational ability (sneak attack) that requires strategic movement to get in place as well as requiring cooperative allies.
Levels 1-5 are the Rogue's strongest levels. Rogues CAN be very good, especially if they are multiclassed with something complimentary later on. The trick is getting sneak attack reliably. Flanking can not be depended on 100% of the time, so most sneak attackers use something else like Feint (Improved/Greater Feint or Two Weapon Feint), invisibility (Major Magic: Vanish, also the Rogue Alternate class Ninja from Ultimate Combat has an ability that cause invisibility a low number of times per day), or the Gang Up feat (easier flanking).
The rogue's other problem is hitting. They lack many of the bonuses to attack that other classes can use abilities/feats/spells to get. Also, most rogue players tend to go the two-weapon fighting route, which reduces the attack modifier. (I prefer strength based, single weapon rogue characters because of this. Plus, they have much more mobility on the battlefield. With that said, a two weapon fighting sneak attacker with flanking is game over so long as they can hit the bad guy... so both options are valid.)
I'm playing Skull and Shackles alongside a Rogue/Duelist multiclass character who is an absolute monster on the battlefield. He feints to get sneak attack, which allows him to hit like a barbarian while having a nigh-unhittable AC. Plus he's the party negotiator and skill monkey. I had a Bard (Dervish of Dawn archetype) who specialized in high AC, good damage, and high talking skills. One of the reasons I retired the character was that the party Rogue could do everything my character could do, but better.
So yeah. Despite the general opinion on these forums, the Rogue can be quite strong if you build and play it right. Especially if you multiclass.
You wouldn't want to multiclass that early anyway. The rogue is solid from 1-5. The only reason it's considered weak is that it suffers hugely after level 10.
Then again, lots of folks don't play much higher than 10. The game changes a good deal after level 7 or 8 when the spells and special abilities start kicking into high gear. The combats have a different playstyle.
I'm very happy they use tactics, but I would also like to see variation in tactics. Right now, it's pretty much get behind the guy and sneak attack for every fight.
It might be a matter of how you're playing the enemy. If you're letting the rogue flank regularly, it suggests that your monsters need to get their backs to the wall or go around in pairs.
Flanking takes a bit of time to set up, and relies on one of
a) sucking up an AoO for movement
b) acrobatics to avoid said AoO
c) taking a round or two to get round the back, in which time you're not doing much
d) lots of 5' steps to inch into position where the opponent can hit you
e) special movement powers
f) winning initiative to avoid the AoO
Many of these become much more difficult against multiple opponents, or in terrain.
But otherwise, it looks to me as if the other PCs are a bit underwhelming in melee, so it's not surprising that the rogue is leading the field. Someone has to, and it's normally a fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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We have a Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer, and Cleric
Ah - a rogue will shine in that type of party. Clerics don't do much damage by design, Sorcerers don't get impressive until the higher levels (and, even then, they often rely on spells that impair/cripple targets rather than do damages), and Monks trade raw damage for tricks like stunning an greater mobility.
It's not uncommon in my gaming groups (particularly at lower levels) to have a single melee-oriented charcter (often a barbarian) dishing out most of the damage and the remainder of the party working to enable/protect that character.
Make sure you know when you flank.
Make sure you know the AoO rules.
Make sure you know how acrobatics (tumble) works.
Acrobatics vs CMD, at first levels it's pretty do-able, at later levels (especially against non-humanoid targets) it becomes A LOT more difficult.
Make sure you move the enemies smartly.
I will go on a limb here and say that the cleric isn't a two hander melee combatant, what i mean by that is that the composition of your party will make the rogue shine a lot more even if the cleric is built for melee* (or rather the party isn't very good at fighting in melee).
Imagine for a moment that instead of a monk you had a barbarian, he would hit every round at +5 for 2d6+10 where the rogue (when he seanks attacks) he hits at +5 for 2d6*. You can understand now the difference, (at this low level) they both have the same chance for hitting but the barbarian does a lot more damage (more than double) and he doesn't need to spend a round (to get into position) to be able to make his damage.
*i assumed that both of them have masterwork weapons and that both of them have a 16 on the ability score they use for hitting (STR for barbarian, DEX for rogue)
Congratulations, your players understand and use tactics. And because of that your rogue is effective.I'm very happy they use tactics, but I would also like to see variation in tactics. Right now, it's pretty much get behind the guy and sneak attack for every fight.
What other character classes do you have in the party? As others have mentioned, sneak attack can look better than it is (particularly at low levels), and the effectiveness of sneak attack can seem even greater if you don't have another high damage class in the party to provide a benchmark. For example, if you have a barbarian and a rogue in the same party, the former will hit more often and do more damage than the latter.
Bottom line, I'd suggest leaving the class unchanged and playing a little more to get some experience with other classes and their effectiveness.
Edit: Also, don't forget that concealment on the target spoils sneak attack. Of course, the odd thing about this is that the safest place to be when facing a rogue is a dark/shadowy alley...
We have a Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer, and Cleric
It also seems that the general consensus regarding this is that my own bias against it is that the character has yet to level high enough - I can deal with that. We are on core rules now, and doing RotRL, so we'll be getting to level 15-16 at least, it will be interesting to see how strong it is then.
Thanks all
As others have said, what you have here is a combination of it being too easy to get flanking (who is the rogue flanking with? remember that the other character must be threatening, so must be armed--the monk's unarmed strike counts, but the cleric and sorcerer need to have SOME sort of weapon in their hand), and a fairly low damage party in general, so +1d6 is looking like a lot.
When the monk starts getting more attacks per round, or his damage goes up, he may steal the spotlight more often.
For comparison, if you had a barbarian instead of a monk, the rogue would be WAY behind: 2d6 base damage from a greatsword + 3 Power Attack two-handed, +9 (16 starting Str + 2 racial, presumably, +4 rage =22, or a +6 modifier increased by 1/2 when used to deal damage 2-handed), for 2d6+12 damage, a higher attack bonus than the rogue, and no need to flank to get that damage consistently.
A fighter would be a bit behind that, but would more or less catch up in a few levels. Several other characters would also either be doing considerably more damage now, or would be in a few levels.
I'll say that, in my home game, the player running the rogue has been rather frustrated, as whole encounters go by without him having a chance to make a sneak attack. In many of my encounters, the players find themselves in unadvantageous positions, themselves flanked in a narrow corridor or otherwise surrounded by foes, or fighting against an enemy that prohibits easy movement (large and huge creatures), flying enemies, etc... He recently asked to pick up the Scout archetype, which allows for Sneak Attack on a charge, and then whenever you move 10 feet (doesn't have this part yet), and he still hasn't had consistent luck with SA. As you can see, it can be a rather fickle benefit.
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Sneak attack is very conditional. Lots of creature types are immune, it doesn't work if the target has any concealment (meaning a L20 rogue's sneak attack is completely negated by a lousy Obscuring mist), and rogues are very squishy, so being in melee is a good way to get crushed. Rogues are considered one of the weakest classes in the game.
If the situation is right, yes, you can SA on an AoO.
You can rename any ability, class, feat, skill to anything you desire.
since when is the rogue considered on of the weakest classes? evasion, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, the most skills. and more tricks then you can shake a wand at
Don't forget that you can't sneak attack if the target has concealment.
At low levels, this is usually dim light*, fog, rain, or spells like Obscuring Mist. At higher levels, this includes Blur, Displacement, etc.
Also, precision damage (like sneak attack) is not multiplied on a critical hit. That makes a huge difference.
*If your Rogue has darkvision, dim light doesn't apply.
Enjoy your honeymoon period with the rogue and let the rogue shine while he can. When clerics and sorcerers as full casters start contributing more, the rogue will fade somewhat.
since when is the rogue considered on of the weakest classes? evasion, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, the most skills. and more tricks then you can shake a wand atSneak attack is very conditional. Lots of creature types are immune, it doesn't work if the target has any concealment (meaning a L20 rogue's sneak attack is completely negated by a lousy Obscuring mist), and rogues are very squishy, so being in melee is a good way to get crushed. Rogues are considered one of the weakest classes in the game.
If the situation is right, yes, you can SA on an AoO.
You can rename any ability, class, feat, skill to anything you desire.
A basic party can divide up all the core skills, making a single skill monkey moot. Lots of classes get evasion, and it isn't much use against a raging barbarians +15 to hit power attack, vital strike, two handed great-sword coming for your rogues face. Sneak attack can sometimes be a never used ability (concealment, lack of flanking, flight,etc), or the set up (1 or 2 rounds doing nothing) can mean the damage is less than average (2 rounds set up flanking, attack for 3d6+ weapon = 1d6/round assuming you hit, vs Barbarian 3 rounds of 2d6+STR = 6d6+ (3xSTR) in 3 rounds), other Melees also have WAY more chances to hit.
Every class has tricks, rogues have some good ones, Ninjas have some better ones, but they are not enough to pull a low BAB melee based class up to the big leagues.
By level 10 you should have a headband of Ninjitsu. Concealment in all forms then becomes moot other than the ever present miss chance. Get a way to sneak attack reliably and enjoy the +2 insight to attack. Also a bonus to feint.
Wow that takes up your whole budget for items that are not weapons, armor or consumables.
Enjoy your honeymoon period with the rogue and let the rogue shine while he can. When clerics and sorcerers as full casters start contributing more, the rogue will fade somewhat.
Depends if the fullcasters ever bring greater-invisibility. Take that rogue and crank it to 11.
Or if they summon monsters in flanking positions
Or a lot of things that would both set up the rogue and cripple the enemy.
By level 10 you should have a headband of Ninjitsu. Concealment in all forms then becomes moot other than the ever present miss chance. Get a way to sneak attack reliably and enjoy the +2 insight to attack. Also a bonus to feint.Wow that takes up your whole budget for items that are not weapons, armor or consumables.
Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggestThose percentages are not rules you have to follow. It's a guideline so a character doesn't start with a +5 sword and no other gear. A rogue spending money to make their primary damage method more viable is what a rogue would do. Just as much as a wizard would get a +4 INT headband by level 10.
Please stop with the nonsense about budgets to attempt to push for your opinion that rogues suck. The alchemist build you posted was a multi class attempt to become a rogue and not an alchemist doing it under its own class limitations. Your alchemist was also a failure with its entire damage potential reduced to a first level fighter when inside of low light, darkness, an enemy under a blur spell, or any other simple low level trick. Obscuring mist is a level 1 spell that makes your build useless in combat. Good at all those intelligence skills, but nil combat effectiveness.
So you're saying the Rogue should pull gold from his armor, weapon or consumables to make up his deficiency in other magical items to make room for this headband.
Don't see what all that other junk was about. I've made 10th level Rogues and none of them took the Headband by 10th due to wealth constraints. There's simply too many more important items for the Rogue's survival to come before working on your damage potential.
If a single PrC dip makes the Rogue look bad when combined with the Alchemist such that it causes you to spit vitriol at me in a completely different thread then I think theres an issue.
But since you're so willing to derail this thread into an attack on my character build, allow me to point out that the Alchemist has methods of avoiding the issues you bring up.
And of course next level he gets access to Blindsight and Greater Invisibility.
A Rogue gains...drum roll please...1d6 sneak attack.
Woah. I'm no moderator here, but let's keep things on-topic and away from personal attacks.
I'm not sure if this is leaking from another thread or what, but I think a lot of us would appreciate if you toned things down, Khrysaor.
I'm being a bit of a hypocrite calling you out like this, but let's stop this before it becomes a full issue and a moderator does need to step in.
This was preordained as soon as the thread was conceived.
well, effective is a relative term. and i have seen people do the math on rogues compared to other classes, their average damage seems to hover lower than others, their skill use is worse than others, and their unique bonuses tend to stab the rogue in the back (pun not intended, but I laughed when I wrote it). that example is once per day, once per day to side step, and if you fail your one use, your prone now.
Wow, a thread about how the rogue is too good? I guess I really have seen it all. ;-)
What wand of Blur? You quite clearly showed you don't have the gold for that.
I accept my build has it's flaws, just as any Rogue build is likely to have flaws.
I take issue when you say that Alchemists are not > than Rogues because I didn't buy a headband. I can make room for a Headband if it's looking to be that important. That's the thing about wealth is how little it proves. You're making this huge deal out of me not taking the headband yet, so what happens when I do?
Your argument falls apart.
Your build uses a weapon and shield, if my Alchemist is fitted to match your concept, not only would it have a higher AC, but it also frees up feats and gold for it to pull even further ahead and afford the Headband you keep harping about.
My answer to your claims that my Alchemist is shut down by the setting sun or whatever, is that the Alchemist has class features that overcome those challenges and provide options for when his sneak attack isn't the best option. Granted Blur is a specific issue but is easily remedied by simply doing the same as your build and just buying the Headband.
What happens when your character isn't in melee or isn't able to Sneak Attack? What do you do? The Alchemist can buff his allies or use an extract towards the goal of getting to sneak attack.
Sure, I'm a hater. I don't mind being called out. Just stop taking things so personally is all I'm asking.
On-topic:
Has anyone run the DPR numbers of an optimized Slayer from the playtest yet? I'm curious how they line up with things like Fighters or slightly self-buffed Rangers (ignoring the animal companion I suppose, no way it could keep up with that). I'm curious how well Sneak Attack works out for the class.
And all the haters propagate.
I'm willing to have a discussion. I don't believe any opinion is unanimously right or wrong. It's frustrating that you felt the need to attack me in a completely different thread over me inquiring what you sacrificed to afford the headband.
Since you actually posted your gold distribution I can see that you value your saving throws and AC less than I do as a Rogue.
Has anyone run the DPR numbers of an optimized Slayer from the playtest yet? I'm curious how they line up with things like Fighters or slightly self-buffed Rangers (ignoring the animal companion I suppose, no way it could keep up with that). I'm curious how well Sneak Attack works out for the class.
If you don't mind a bit of digging, I ran quite a few numbers in the Slayer Playtest if you feel like checking my post history and searching for "Taldrin the Terrible"
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And all the haters propagate.
we don't hater the rogue, we're disappointed by it.
I dug it up for you Xethik =)
Taldrin the Terrifying's DPR Calculation
And his build is located here.
EDIT: As for the comparison to Rangers, they do slightly less overall damage when the Ranger is facing his Favored Enemy and contributing his Animal Companion towards DPR.