Cover and Concealment


Rules Questions


I've now led my group through the first 2 sessions with the core rules (we previously did the beginner book thing), and while we are progressing quite nicely, I find I'm still confused somewhat regarding cover and concealment and, as we're meeting again tomorrow, wanted to see if I could at least get clearer on it.

From reading the rules about 50 times now (core rules only), it would seem that cover and concealment are not mutually exclusive, is that correct? If I have a guy in behind a shadowy 1/2 wall, he would have both. In that case, the monster would have a bonus (+4, I believe) to armor class, plus a 20% miss chance. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

Also, say I have an evil boss a distance away from a PC, and that evil boss has a minion standing directly between him and the PC, does the boss get +4AC because the minion is giving cover? And how would distances apply? Say, in one case, the minion is adjacent to a PC 30 feet away, and in another he was standing 1/2 way between them?

Finally, if that minion were instead a second PC, would the boss get cover from PC1 because PC2 was in the way, getting both a bonus to AC from cover and the benefit of PC1 suffering -4 to attack from shooting into melee?

I keep going round in circles on this and really appreciate any clarity you can provide.

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

the rules for cover, concealment, and visibility do take some time to figure out...but it sounds like you got it down.

Item #1: Does the boss get +4 AC because the minion is giving cover?
Yes, if a minion is in line of fire from missiles or ranged touch spells, he provides the BOSSMAN +4 AC for soft cover.

Any creature can act as soft cover, enemy or ally.

Item #2: How would distances apply?
Distance is not relevant in the case of soft cover. The creature either provides cover or it does not.

Distance does come into play when you talk about half-walls.

If the attacker and target are within 30 feet of an object that acts as cover, the one who is closer can ignore the cover and gains the 20% miss chance from the other. If they are further than 30 feet, the cover is ignored by both (which sounds a bit odd for spells, but not for missiles that arc).

Also, I believe the general consensus is that cover does not 'stack', which means that if your shadowy half-wall is a physical barrier (ie it can stop missiles), it will not provide +2 AC due to Cover as the creatures already provide a +4 to AC for Soft Cover.

Item #3: Finally, if that minion were instead a second PC, would the boss get cover from PC1 because PC2 was in the way, getting both a bonus to AC from cover and the benefit of PC1 suffering -4 to attack from shooting into melee?
Yes, If PC1 has to 'shoot through' PC2 to hit the enemy, the enemy would gain +4 AC from soft cover and the PC1 would have a -4 penalty for shooting into melee. Pretty brutal.

Sczarni

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_partial-cover

They are not mutually exclusive, and they grant different bonuses based on the degree of each.

For instance, a person with lightning stance might have 50% concealment from making a move action behind a low set of boxes (low cover) or around a corner (full cover). So it is all circumstantial and all applies.

In the question you asked about the evil boss, they would only have soft cover, so no bonuses or subtractions to melee, only to ranged attacks. Also, additional monsters do not add more cover. Example: A 1 2 3 4 B If the 1-4 spots were full of the boss's minions, he would still only have soft cover versus A trying to shoot him (at B).

If the situation were A B 1 2 3 C (C being the Boss), then the only two that wouldn't have soft cover would be B and 1 (and they would be in melee and wouldn't care anyway, unless 1 was trying to hit A or B was trying to hit C, taking AoO as required for using ranged attacks in melee). A shooting 1, as stated, would take -8 total (soft cover and shooting into melee). So he is better off shooting at the boss (C) with just the +4 AC mod.


Craig1234 wrote:
From reading the rules about 50 times now (core rules only), it would seem that cover and concealment are not mutually exclusive, is that correct? If I have a guy in behind a shadowy 1/2 wall, he would have both. In that case, the monster would have a bonus (+4, I believe) to armor class, plus a 20% miss chance. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

Correct. You can benefit from both Cover and Concealment at the same time. Technically... (reality wise) anytime someone is benefiting from Cover, they should technically been considered as having Concealment as well (unless the object providing cover is clear); however, if I recall correctly, the rules do not actually state that.


So it seems I have it pretty much correct, now I just have to remember to actually apply it in game :)

As an extension to this, say PC-A fired at BossMan through PC-B taking the -4 for firing into melee and granting BossMan +4AC for soft cover and PC-A then rolled a 1 on his attack. Is it unreasonable to say that he missed BossMan, but hit PC-B and have him roll damage against his ally? Would you recommend he do a second attack roll against his ally to see if it actually hit, or modify damage, or anything like that?

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

Craig1234 wrote:

So it seems I have it pretty much correct, now I just have to remember to actually apply it in game :)

As an extension to this, say PC-A fired at BossMan through PC-B taking the -4 for firing into melee and granting BossMan +4AC for soft cover and PC-A then rolled a 1 on his attack. Is it unreasonable to say that he missed BossMan, but hit PC-B and have him roll damage against his ally? Would you recommend he do a second attack roll against his ally to see if it actually hit, or modify damage, or anything like that?

Thanks

It's not RAW.

You could house rule it...but keep in mind that this means when a 1 is rolled, a highly skilled archer will hit a friendly much more often than a low skilled archer, which is counter-intuitive. If your group decides to implement this, I suggest you just make it a straight-up roll like d20 vs AC.


So then, how do people usually handle friendly fire?

Grand Lodge

Craig1234 wrote:
So then, how do people usually handle friendly fire?

Precise Shot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The archer who missed already is suffering a consequence for failure: He didn't hit. I don't really see a need to have him damage an ally on top of that.

As with any house rule, it depends on how you think your players would like the rule. Hitting allies tends to be considered "not fun," but if your players would get a kick out of it, then go ahead.

I recommend that new players try to get used to playing the rules as written for a while before adding their own. That way you have a feel for what it is that you're changing and whether it actually needs that change.

Grand Lodge

Reckless Aim is the only way to accidentally hit an ally.


OK, thanks. My players wouldn't have a problem with the occasional hit, but it would definitely be a drag if it happened often. That's why I was trying to get at how people handle it.

Sczarni

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Reckless Aim is the only way to accidentally hit an ally.

Or, if you play with a "crit deck" there are cards in the fumble pile that have this as a consequence. The crit deck is a supplemental/optional rule and not Core by any stretch. I don't even know if it's Paizo to be honest.

Grand Lodge

I hate those decks.

I demand to know when the DM plans to use them before the start of a campaign.

If so, they will taste the pain of my reroll Witch!


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Bring the pain, BBT. We like those decks, but mostly because we allow a draw from the crit deck or you can just take the multiplied damage. We only check for fumble on the FIRST attack you make in a round. If you confirm the fumble you can either just fumble with no further effect other than losing the rest of your iterative attacks for that turn, or if you really want to keep them, go for the deck.

Grand Lodge

Well, those decks hurt martial PCs, and that's it.

No need to up the Caster/Martial gap.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Spells fumble too. I especially recall an enemy caster who fumbled, reducing himself in size by two steps.

Grand Lodge

Fumble?

How?

You can choose spells that don't require the caster to roll any attack roll.

It is really easy to do.

Sczarni

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Fumble?

How?

You can choose spells that don't require the caster to roll any attack roll.

It is really easy to do.

Any spell which attacks a target and rolls a d20 follows the standard attack rules for critical hits and failures... Check the Core Rulebook. They can even do multiplied damage. Avoiding all these generally means doing less damage (esp. vs. rogues with high reflex rolls and improved evasion). Throw that improved 20d6 fireball out there (or whatever it does). Watch Evil Rogue Laugh.

Grand Lodge

maouse wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Fumble?

How?

You can choose spells that don't require the caster to roll any attack roll.

It is really easy to do.

Any spell which attacks a target and rolls a d20 follows the standard attack rules for critical hits and failures... Check the Core Rulebook. They can even do multiplied damage. Avoiding all these generally means doing less damage (esp. vs. rogues with high reflex rolls and improved evasion). Throw that improved 20d6 fireball out there (or whatever it does). Watch Evil Rogue Laugh.

There are plenty of spells that don't have a to hit roll, nor a Reflex save.

Watch that Evil Rogue laugh himself silly, as he fails that Will save after getting Persistent Mind Fogged followed by a Quickened Hideous Laughter....


maouse wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Fumble?

How?

You can choose spells that don't require the caster to roll any attack roll.

It is really easy to do.

Any spell which attacks a target and rolls a d20 follows the standard attack rules for critical hits and failures... Check the Core Rulebook. They can even do multiplied damage. Avoiding all these generally means doing less damage (esp. vs. rogues with high reflex rolls and improved evasion). Throw that improved 20d6 fireball out there (or whatever it does). Watch Evil Rogue Laugh.

Easy, concentration roll.

Grand Lodge

maouse wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Fumble?

How?

You can choose spells that don't require the caster to roll any attack roll.

It is really easy to do.

Any spell which attacks a target and rolls a d20 follows the standard attack rules for critical hits and failures... Check the Core Rulebook. They can even do multiplied damage. Avoiding all these generally means doing less damage (esp. vs. rogues with high reflex rolls and improved evasion). Throw that improved 20d6 fireball out there (or whatever it does). Watch Evil Rogue Laugh.

I mean, you can select spells, that don't require a D20 roll.

For example, a Wizard casting Charm Person doesn't roll anything.

Sczarni

In my experience, if you are wielding a weapon with a critical modifier greater than x2, and it's damage you're after; you are almost always better off choosing the multiple damage - if you're given the choice.

We play that the crit deck is optional, the fumble deck is compulsory.

I'm playing a Zen Archer in that game and last session the Perfect Strike ability saved me from 2 fumbles as I just got to discard the natural 1 both times.

Sczarni

kinevon wrote:

There are plenty of spells that don't have a to hit roll, nor a Reflex save.

Watch that Evil Rogue laugh himself silly, as he fails that Will save after getting Persistent Mind Fogged followed by a Quickened Hideous Laughter....

Way to "out dps" people... lol. JK. Neither of those do damage. But a great help to the party I guess.

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