Fighters are notorious as being good at dealing damage and nothing else, and personally I've found that when playing a Fighter, once my build is finished, I no longer have anything to look forward to.
The lack of out-of-combat abilities/skill points makes having any real non-combat hobbies almost impossible.
The cop-out answer is always "roleplay" but that doesn't take into consideration that your character sheet is there to tell you what your strengths and weaknesses are, and when all of your strengths rely on killing something, it leaves a pretty big hole in the potential for believable roleplay.
Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.
Any tips/tricks/hints/experience to give?
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Have you heard of advanced weapon training yet?
It lets you trade out the ability to pick a different weapon group (but doesn't affect the growing bonus on current ones), and you can pick one of a variety of abilities.
This includes getting to treat your BAB as skill points for 2 skills (used bluff, intimidate, and a pair of skills based on weapon groups- usually has another social skill, or maybe perception). All of the skills gained like this are treated as class skills.
Also, you can apply bravery to will saves.
There are other options, but those two address some of the larger complaints that fighters face.
Past that- find an interesting style. I've been playing around with an outslug style build that also uses another AWT option- stealing the warpriest's sacred weapon dice. So that I can punch people 20' away with my steel gloves as heavy as greatswords.
Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.
Remember, there is no problem doing something as a hobby without having the skills. The skills show professional-level training in something. No one says you have to be a *good* cook. 1 rank in a skill already denotes serious training.
Advanced weapon training is definitely an option and gives the fighter a passable skill set. It is pretty big, and do not forget that you can use feats to get extra advanced weapon trainings(and hey, fighters do not lack for feats).
That said, I have seen games, where people got a free skill point/level for professions, crafts or performances that were not related to adventuring. It doesn´t change much. I actually gave everyone at least 4+ skill points/level in one game and, well, we have very skills that no one has, but it has not made a huge difference except when it comes to mass assists (which the party has almost never used).
From a RP-side, there are quite a few activities that your character can enjoy. Anything from stamp collection to pub crawling to writing a travelogue is on the menu, and as said before you can have something as a hobby without being particularly good at it.
Here is Build I've been working on. I call it: The Dastardly Lore Warden. Basically, it's a maneuver specialist that abuses dirty trick and also, has a wide skill set and can pack quite the punch in a fist fight.
With the Lore Warden Archetype, 14 Intelligence and Human, we are sitting on 7 skill points per level, plus the extra that Versatile Training net us.
With the following layout, you can max as class skills: Perception, Acrobatics, Sense Motive and Stealth, and with the SF:Linguistics+Orator combo you can max Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate too with only one skill that also grant us new languages. If drawbacks are allowed, a personal recommendation would be to pick up pragmatic activator as the Lore Warden also convert it to a class skill when switched as Int based skill.
The skill focus in acrobatics its to exploit the Hair's feature, maxing out our chances of evading a critical per turn.
So basically, he is a Half-Skill Monkey, can act as party face, Scout, do some good tanking with dirty trick locks, and while not focused in dps, still can pack good damage on a fight.
The build progression looks as follow:
Race: Human
Alternate Racial Traits: Focused study
Traits: Reckless, Seeker
Str 17 (15+2) Dex 15 Con 13 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 7
1 - Skill focus: Linguistics, Orator, Power attack
2 - Combat expertise, Improved dirty trick
3 - Maneuver training +2, Kitsune Style
4 - Kitsune Tricks, +1 Con
5 - Weapon Training (Close), Advanced Weapon Training (Versatile Training: Close)
6 - Quick Dirty Trick
7 - Maneuver training +4, Know Thy Enemy, Greater Dirty Trick
8 - Skill focus: Acrobatics, Combat Reflexes, +1 Str
9 - Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon: Cestus), Weapon focus (Cestus)
10 - Kitsune Vengeance
11 - Maneuver training +6, Hair’s Breadth, Pin Down
12 - Dirty Trick master, +1 Dex
The essential is getting close and personal with an enemy, dirty fight it, and them, they can either remove the two conditions you impose and having to expend a standard action to do so or trying to get away provoking an AoO and triggering another dirty trick maneuver thanks to Pin down and Kitsune vengeance. If they decide to stay and do not shake off the conditions, you literally can disable them on your next turn with Dirty Trick Master.
The nice thing about this PC is that he gets the hell away of the big stupid fighter picture. He has a terrible flaw though, his will save. The problem with the Lore Warden is that it loses bravery and the armed bravery posibility. I want to fit Iron Will somewhere, and even additional traits to pick up a will booster, but don't know what to cut away yet.
So, what do you think?
If you really want to be good at things outside of combat, you can build towards that. I mean, a Lore Warden who focuses on Elven Battle Style gets INT to damage at level 4, and that character really isn't going to lack for skills.
I think a lot of the problem (and the rules kind of compound this) is that 90% of the time when people are making builds they're thinking about "what am I going to do in this combat situation" which is all well and fine, but when it comes to classes that are really focused on doing one thing well it's kind of important to consider what else they want to do.
Plus, consider that your character can have an interest in things that they are simply not good at; and characters are often defined by their weaknesses as much as their strengths. "Fighter who loves cooking, but is terrible at it" can be fun, but ultimately the issue is whether the way the game you're in will actually allow for opportunities to do stuff outside of skill checks and combat. I've been in games where playing a fighter would have absolutely been the wrong choice, just because of the lack of negative space built into the campaign.
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Back in my 3e days I had a saying, "If you can't roleplay an interesting human fighter, you shouldn't be allowed to play anything else."
Sounds a little snotty, but the gist behind it was that I feel like way too many people just play a stereotype for a race and a stereotype for a class, and think they're being original. They see Fighter as being "boring" because it doesn't hand them an entire personality and background on a silver platter, it just gives you the tools to make damned near anything that touches a weapon (and even things that don't touch weapons).
To make a comparison, other classes are a toy truck, or a toy sword. You can look at them and know exactly how you're "supposed" to play with them. Fighter is a box of legos. All the pieces you need to make anything you can imagine, and you can play with it however you want. You just have to figure out what you want before you can make it, instead of the other way around.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Back in my 3e days I had a saying, "If you can't roleplay an interesting human fighter, you shouldn't be allowed to play anything else."
Sounds a little snotty, but the gist behind it was that I feel like way too many people just play a stereotype for a race and a stereotype for a class, and think they're being original. They see Fighter as being "boring" because it doesn't hand them an entire personality and background on a silver platter, it just gives you the tools to make damned near anything that touches a weapon (and even things that don't touch weapons).
To make a comparison, other classes are a toy truck, or a toy sword. You can look at them and know exactly how you're "supposed" to play with them. Fighter is a box of legos. All the pieces you need to make anything you can imagine, and you can play with it however you want. You just have to figure out what you want before you can make it, instead of the other way around.
It is a little snotty and smacks of "one true way"ism, but in general I tend to agree with you, at least in my personal games. I feel similarly when I see people complain that they can't make an interesting character out of the CRB races - there are 7 billion unique humans in real life, and while some of them probably are boring, there are a good portion that are interesting.
Let's see, my last fighter was for a Carrion Crown game, 15 PB. I made a LG human fighter who fought with longsword and shield and didn't take the shield bash tree. The entire point of his build was to be as mechanically vanilla as possible. He was from a minor Ustalav noble family and was set on mastering the sword, while protecting his sister - who was a changeling sorcerer. He didn't know she was a changeling. I played him as brave, a little foolish (8 Wis), and fanatically devoted to protecting his group (woe be upon the foe that damaged his sister). I had him speak with a bad Eastern European accent. He was effective and a lot of fun for the whole table.
He died once to a nat one on a SoD effect and was brought back. Otherwise he survived the entire AP just fine and was useful throughout. Our party was cleric, sorcerer, summoner, fighter.
It is the player that makes a character interesting, not the rules.
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Back in my 3e days I had a saying, "If you can't roleplay an interesting human fighter, you shouldn't be allowed to play anything else."
Sounds super fun to be a new player at your table.
The question being asked in this thread is a fair one due to fighter's lacking mechanics. They have very little way to interact with the world based on the mechanics in the game, so things like lore warden are great for this.
Personally, I'm a fan of Eldritch Guardian and Mutagen Warrior for these reasons, as they make you feel quite different regardless of the fact that you're still a fighter at heart.
I don't understand how some people seem to be annoyed that others like having mechanics to help with their roleplay, not everyone is as 'good' a roleplayer as you, and some people need aids to help out with this.
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Ok, I will completely focus on roleplay, mechanical discussions have been done a lot already...
First, as others already pointed out, you can always add some background, no matter the class. Family ties, relationships with others, birthplace, social status before adventuring, worship etc. are all good options.
There are also some (rather) fighter specific RP hooks. A hook might be: Why did your character become a fighter? Did he feel the need to protect somone? Did he join an army because of the free meals? Does his family have a martial history? If it didn't, why did he decide against family traditions?
A fighter also has strong ties to his weapons and armor. Why did he pick this weapon - respective these weapons? What's his opinion about other weapons - smaller, bigger, more mundane, more exotic? Did he have a key experience with his favored weapon(s)? Or with one he dislikes? What are his opinions about light and heavy armor? Where do they stem from - was some heavy armor guy overrun because he wasn't mobile enough or did some orc pierce through light armor and ended a life?
Bravery can have some place in the background too. Stories about brave fighters charging at dragons, dwarven warriors battling underground horrors or elven fighters hunting giants can impress young people and make them consider the path of the fighter.
Finally, depending on bonus feat choice there is also RP potential. Why does a fighter enjoy a certain maneuver? Was he impressed by seeing done by anyone else? Or is it just a natural fit to his personality - bull rush for an all-in guy, disarm for a cunning fighter, trip to protect others or prohibit escape? The same can be done for any special attack, be it Whirlwind, Vital Strike or 'Death or Glory'.
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Otherwise he survived the entire AP just fine and was useful throughout. Our party was cleric, sorcerer, summoner, fighter.
Well hats off to that bro-tier Summoner for doing his damnedest to share the spotlight. Skill monkey Eidolon and a laser focus on buffs, I'm guessing?
Back on topic. Yeah, roleplay can make a character interesting. Any character. But in most cases the Fighter class isn't doing you many favors to make that vision come true. Heck, I've got ideas for ways to build Fighters, but since PFS is my main avenue of play, I feel like I'd be picking selfishly and ignoring key mechanics (face skills, perception, knowledges, casting...) that pick-up groups might need.
Honestly? Just give it 4+ Int skills as a baseline and you fix 90% of my gripes with the class. Traits can fix the class skills and Iron Will plus investing in Wisdom enchants will make your bae save as good as the average wizard's.
It's just that i struggle to get hypes about what's essencially a mundane class in a magical world. So many concepts are enabled by casting power or interesting mechanics (love you, Kineticists) it Fighters can be described as "Up-gunned Warrior class with slightly boosted numbers on AC and DPR."
wait what
what is bro-tier
Back in my 3e days I had a saying, "If you can't roleplay an interesting human fighter, you shouldn't be allowed to play anything else."Sounds super fun to be a new player at your table.
I think the kinder way to put it is "consider who your character is as a person not just what they can do that involves die rolls. If whatever character you're playing isn't someone who is interesting aside from what they can do mechanically, the game might benefit from you thinking more deeply about your character's person."
Like "Allergic to wine, is afraid of bees, loves the opera, has lost touch with his sister but misses her, enjoys whittling in spare time, is awful at card games but still enjoys gambling, distrustful of magic using elves, became an adventurer to get away from being doomed to farm the rest of his life, wants to buy a boat and a seaside villa on retirement, hates bullies, had has his heart broken, thinks worshipping the gods is silly most of the time since they're going to do what they're going to do without consulting him first, loves dogs, carries a bottle of maple syrup everywhere in case there are waffles to be had, dislikes hereditary class divisions but envies the fashions nobles wear, greets animals he sees a la "hello Mr. Horse", has a lucky pair of socks that's now getting pretty worn out, and composes poetry but refuses to share it with anyone" is a concept for a person, and you can make that fit with more or less any character from a human fighter to a svirfneblin arcanist. If the character you're playing isn't at least as detailed *as a person* as that stuff that just came off of the top of my head, you (and the game) would most likely benefit from putting a little more thought into that stuff. The human fighter is just the character that has the least said about him or her by the game itself, so you have to be able to fill in that negative space with some kind of personality or you're going to have less fun than you ought to be having.
It shouldn't be about "making new players feel unwelcome" since we were all likely pretty oafish at this when we started, it should be about guiding people to think of their characters as more than the accumulation of an array of numbers. I mean, most of the ways you can express your character in a game are about what you want to do more than what you roll.
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Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.
Persuade your GM to allow Background Skills from Unchained. Except that Bards can take Perform as background (ban that) it's remarkably well balanced, as most of those skills are trash. I felt that it's a bit overdone at 2skp/level, so I changed it to 2skp at 1st and 1/level thereafter. Now you can cook to your heart's content as well as make weapons or recite poetry or be an expert on Ulfen scrimshaw of the early 45th century.
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Fighters are notorious as being good at dealing damage and nothing else, and personally I've found that when playing a Fighter, once my build is finished, I no longer have anything to look forward to.
The lack of out-of-combat abilities/skill points makes having any real non-combat hobbies almost impossible.The cop-out answer is always "roleplay" but that doesn't take into consideration that your character sheet is there to tell you what your strengths and weaknesses are, and when all of your strengths rely on killing something, it leaves a pretty big hole in the potential for believable roleplay.
Maybe I really enjoy cooking?
Well, I would if I could afford to put any points into Craft or Profession, but being Int-low and having only 2 skill points per level means I'm tapped out once the "adventure-necessary" skills are taken.Any tips/tricks/hints/experience to give?
Protip: Play 5e
I start by imagining How he fights
Ignoring mechanics and stuff, just what are the visuals for how he fights.
I try and imagine fight scenes with him. How does he fight a pack of Orcs, what if he was fighting a dragon or a giant, etc...
If the game was a movie what fight scenes staring this guy would make me go "DAMN that was cool"
Once I have that in my head I work out the other details and worry about how to reprisent that mechcanically. Personality, Hobbies, Skills, Feats, etc.... because all those things come back to the fighting style.
Solid full plate and shield Tanker, is gonna have a personality to match.
Fast moving mobile twin blade is gonna be someone restless, hates staying in one place, confident maybe even cockey.
Everything aside the Fighter is the guy who fights. How he fights is, to me, as central to who he is as anything else, as are the reasons why his fighting style developed this way.
Some of my favorite characters have been fighters I made following this approach.
S 14 +2 race
D 14
C 14
I 13
W 12
C 10
Ability scores are really not that different then a "normal" fighter.
You get the traits that make sense motive and diplomacy class skills and give you a +1. Full ranks in both, plus +4 and +6 bonuses from feats means:
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +1 ability, +4 feat = +19 sense motive
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +6 feat = +20 diplomacy
So you invest 3/20 ability point buy points.
2/12 feats
2/2 traits (or 3/11 feats if you count traits as 1/2 feat)
2/3 skill points
I would like to try playing this character as a diplomatic officer type. Perhaps a John Wayne type.
Back in my 3e days I had a saying, "If you can't roleplay an interesting human fighter, you shouldn't be allowed to play anything else."Sounds super fun to be a new player at your table.
Well the point is that your ability to role play your character is a skill that you have to develop, and I honestly see a lot of the heavy niche specific classes with all of the baked in flavor arent challenging you to grow or expand.
They're like those "How to lose weight in 5 minutes a day" advertisements. They don't work, they don't do anything but make you think you're trying when you're really still just sitting on the couch with a puzza.
I'd rather see someone trying and mostly failing to play something that is actually theirs than Drizzt Clone #3752.
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I've never found any class to help anyone learn how to roleplay. Campaigns where you have to roleplay help you learn how to roleplay. Classes have nothing to do with that. Some classes help you mechanically do things outside of combat. Some help less. Fighter helps least. At least without advanced weapon training, or the lore warden archetype.
So yeah, those are my suggestions. Of course, along with advanced weapon training, or the lore warden for more skills, you can try item mastery feats, the mutation warrior, or eldritch guardian can give you some new, fun options.
I've never found any class to help anyone learn how to roleplay. Campaigns where you have to roleplay help you learn how to roleplay. Classes have nothing to do with that. Some classes help you mechanically do things outside of combat. Some help less. Fighter helps least. At least without advanced weapon training, or the lore warden archetype.
I think a large part of the issue is that there's only so much a person can keep in mind at once. When you're trying to juggle, say, an animal companion/familiar, preparing your spells, your spell slots, your stat changes due to size changes, and your summons that's already a lot to keep a handle on especially if you're sort of new here. So it's justifiable that the player who's having trouble keeping up with all that lets other things slip by the wayside. This is reasonable! Keeping track of your character's employment history and favorite foods isn't going to help the party win a fight, so people naturally focus on the stuff that does.
But when you're playing a class that has very little to worry about, no daily choices for your abilities, no managing metacurrencies that run out, only one character to control, and all your abilities and modifiers are the same at the start of the day as they are at the end, it's easier to keep track of your character's quirks and personality, particularly if you're not an old hand at this.
It's just like how you wouldn't advise a new player to pick a complicated class because they'll have trouble keeping up; if a player is having trouble keeping up, they tend to roleplay a lot less.
There has been a lot of general roleplay advice, as well as advice about not being afraid to roleplay an enjoyment of an activity you aren't any good at. The Fighter who likes to cook but isn't really very good at it, for example.
I should clarify that my concern was exactly the opposite: How to be a Fighter that is *actually good* at something other than just fighting.
The Fighter who likes to cook and is very good at it, enough that maybe it's a retirement option after adventuring life is over.
That said, I think Background Skills basically cover this need perfectly. Thanks to those who pointed them out!
Use 3pp or homebrew... I humbly suggest this.
...And this, for extra fun (falchions are boring after 300 characters using them). ;)
The Weapon Master Handbook is pretty nice too.
Just out of curiosity, what Will saves *aren't* covered by your version of Bravery? (ie: why not just give full Will bonus and scrap Bravery?)
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Just out of curiosity, what Will saves *aren't* covered by your version of Bravery? (ie: why not just give full Will bonus and scrap Bravery?)
Tsc... I really should make that more clear. I'll get around to it... Soon... I just have to figure out a way to describe it without ruining the page formatting. :P
The Bravery bonus applies against fear and the same stuff Protection From Evil would protect you from: spells that allow the caster to have direct control over you... So it applies against stuff like Charm Person and Dominate Person, but not stuff like Confusion, Feeblemind or Glitterdust.
Without Advanced Weapon Training? Everything that isn't a fear effect. So most enchantments, most necromancy, most enemies abilities, etc.
With AWT? Nothing. Nothing escapes bravery with AWT. It applies to all will saves. Also to the DC for intimidation on you.
Seriously, most of these problems are answered by "get AWT".
The eldritch guardian gets a bravery version that is pretty much the AWT one as the bravery bonus applies to mind-affecting spells. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of spells that require a will save and are not mind-affecting, except positive energy spells if you are undead.
The eldritch guardian gets a bravery version that is pretty much the AWT one as the bravery bonus applies to mind-affecting spells. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of spells that require a will save and are not mind-affecting, except positive energy spells if you are undead.
Bestow Curse. Which is a fairly solid debuff. It is only necromancy (curse). I would imagine many curse spells are similar.
But yes, taking out mind affecting is huge. And it is "effects", which makes it even more valuable (I am wary of Dwarves' hardy/steel soul build, sicne that is for spells and SLAs- nothing against a vampire, a fairly standard boss type; "effects" would include super natural abilities). It is enough that you shouldn't feel like you are destroying yourself if you take eldritch guardian.
Other fighter trades for bravery...a bit more questionable.
Organic Character Development
Easily one of the coolest things you can do with the stock fighter.
What do I mean by this?
Say we have Hiro Heroson, a young man full of youthful exuberance freshly deployed i the town guard.
As part of his basic guardsman package, he's equipped with the whole standard uniform for his town; scalemail, a shield, and a sword.
Disaster strikes on Hiro's first day; goblins attack the town market.
Now, based on the events at the market, Hiro's fighting style may change.
While he comes in as just another guard, we shape him more based on how the market event goes.
Perhaps he needs to come to the aid a merchant. Hiro then begins building down the Bodyguard tree at later levels.
Maybe he is tasked by his commander to hold a gate to allow the townsfolk to escape. Hiro now focuses on Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line.
Maybe he needs to plow through a hoard of goblins to rescue a VIP. Hiro builds towards combat maneuvers.
Maybe he is forced to use a different kind of weapon in the combat. Hiro begins branching out into other weapon styles, maybe giving polearms or longbows a shot.
Heck, even if Hiro later decides that one of his decisions wasn't the best for him, he can trade out his bonus feats at later levels.
Now, most classes can do this, but simply not to the degree of the fighter.
The fighter is a blank page.
Other classes have formating coded in.
Ha, I knew there must have been a few. Still, the archetype is cool - it and the mutagen one form my basic fighter package at the moment.
Ha, I knew there must have been a few. Still, the archetype is cool - it and the mutagen one form my basic fighter package at the moment.
Hard to argue against mutagenic warrior.
Even more attack/damage, and it gives you wings.
The eldritch guardian gets a bravery version that is pretty much the AWT one as the bravery bonus applies to mind-affecting spells. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of spells that require a will save and are not mind-affecting, except positive energy spells if you are undead.Bestow Curse. Which is a fairly solid debuff. It is only necromancy (curse). I would imagine many curse spells are similar.
But yes, taking out mind affecting is huge. And it is "effects", which makes it even more valuable (I am wary of Dwarves' hardy/steel soul build, sicne that is for spells and SLAs- nothing against a vampire, a fairly standard boss type; "effects" would include super natural abilities). It is enough that you shouldn't feel like you are destroying yourself if you take eldritch guardian.
Other fighter trades for bravery...a bit more questionable.
Bestow Curse is pretty bad but it isn't "you are now an NPC" bad. Saves are considered more valuable than AC because losing the AC game sucks but losing the save game kills; bad will is unacceptable because you then spend the entire combat chasing down your wizard, bad fortitude is unacceptable because you then spend the entire combat puking up your guts.
By the way, how many people here use combat stamina for fighters? I think that if you follow the option to make it available to them for free, between that and AWT fights can actually get pretty scary for martials.
I think the effect of stamina system is barely noticeable... Most feat boosts are so minor they might as well not be there.
It should allow special actions of some kind, like improving movement speed, ignoring difficult terrain, making an extra attack, getting a reroll/bonus to physical skill checks, getting an extra movement, standing up as a swift action, etc.
It'd be much more useful and take far less page space.
The cop-out answer.
Play the Warlord from Dreamscarred Press' Path of War.
4+Int Ranks, Full BAB, Bonus feats, Charisma to Mind-Affecting Will Saves, Teamwork abilities, stances and aura buffs, and maneuvers ("spells" for martial classes).
Even if you removed the maneuver subsystem and slapped a bonus feat where a new stance would be (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17) it would be playable over the fighter (even with dead features such as Dual Boost and Prowess).
@ Lemmy - some are just freebies and tricks, but there are a few good ones. I imagine a lot of PCs would go for buffing a power attack more often than not, to be honest.
One of my ideas about fighters was to double the bravery bonus so that it is actually significant to 1/2 the character level to match the progression of various other class bonuses and make the feature give the same bonus to stamina pools to define fighters as the premier combat stamina users (like how monks have more stunning fist uses than anyone else with the feat). Mind you, this might need some finetuning for AWT :) .