I think this is a good solution for guaranteeing a very reasonable but not overwhelmingly overpowered character but still having some randomness in the D&D ability scores:
Reworked so all ranges (other than the single fixed-18 in 5D6K3 and 6D6K3) are 1D4+xx. Z-Scores are for StatSum, BonusSum, and PointBuyPFSum. Z-Score is (Value-Avg)/StdDev
3D6 targeted power level:
Min: {14,12,10,10, 8, 8}: 62 tot, 10.33 avg, 1 bonus, 56.5 Ntile, -0.1/+0.3/-0.0 Z-score
Max: {17,15,13,13,11,11}: 80 tot, 13.33 avg, 7 bonus, 97.8 Ntile, +2.3/+1.9/+2.3 Z-score
Avg: {15,14,12,11,10, 9}: 71 tot, 11.83 avg, 4 bonus, 85.6 Ntile, +1.1/+1.1/+1.0 Z-score
1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7, 1D4+7
Start with {13,11,9,9,7,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
4D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {15,14,12,12,10, 8}: 71 tot, 11.83 avg, 5 bonus, 41.7 Ntile, -0.4/-0.1/-0.4 Z-score
Max: {18,17,15,15,13,11}: 87 tot, 14.50 avg, 11 bonus, 96.4 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {17,15,14,13,11,10}: 80 tot, 13.33 avg, 8 bonus, 79.8 Ntile, +0.9/+0.8/+0.9 Z-score
1D4+14, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7
Start with {14,13,11,9,9,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
5D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,14,14,12,10,10}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 9 bonus, 49.0 Ntile, -0.4/+0.1/-0.1 Z-score
Max: {18,17,17,15,13,13}: 93 tot, 15.50 avg, 14 bonus, 96.5 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {18,16,15,14,12,11}: 86 tot, 14.33 avg, 12 bonus, 83.6 Ntile, +0.8/+1.0/+1.0 Z-score
18, 1D4+13, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {13,13,11,9,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
6D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,15,15,12,12,10}: 82 tot, 13.67 avg, 10 bonus, 33.7 Ntile, -0.6/-0.5/-0.3 Z-score
Max: {18,18,18,15,15,13}: 97 tot, 16.16 avg, 17 bonus, 98.1 Ntile, +2.0/+1.9/+2.1 Z-score
Avg: {18,17,16,14,13,12}: 90 tot, 15.00 avg, 14 bonus, 80.6 Ntile, +0.8/+0.9/+0.8 Z-score
18, 1D4+14, 1D4+14, 1D4+11, 1D4+11, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {14,14,11,11,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
More explaining is definitely necessary...
DAT TITLE!! No thanks pt buy works just fine.
Snow_Tiger wrote: More explaining is definitely necessary... The basic concept is to create character stat arrays with some randomness, that are on par with what one would expect from various traditional die rolling schema, but with less variance (i.e. so your party won't be vastly different in terms of power level because one player got very lucky and one player got very unlucky.)
To mimic "roll 3d6"- "Start with {13,11,9,9,7,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat."
To mimic "roll 4d6, keep three" - Start with {14,13,11,9,9,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
To mimic "roll 5d6, keep three" - "Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {13,13,11,9,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat."
To mimic "6d6, keep three" - "Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {14,14,11,11,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat."
I've honestly never heard of the last three, but I think instead of 4d6, drop low for my next campaign I'll try 14+d4, 13+d4, 11+d4, 9+d4, 9+d4, 7+d4, just to see how it works.
Try this for random stats with equal absolute values (not equal point buy values):
Take 12 playing cards numbered 4 to 9; two of each. Shuffle them and draw six pairs. The total of each pair is assigned to an ability score.
Umbral Reaver wrote: Try this for random stats with equal absolute values (not equal point buy values):
Take 12 playing cards numbered 4 to 9; two of each. Shuffle them and draw six pairs. The total of each pair is assigned to an ability score.
Interesting. But the quality of the sets of pairs would still fluctuate, if one player draws all-even combinations and the other all-odd combinations. Their ability modifiers differ by +6. (Extreme case.)
If you don't want to get rid of odd stats at CharGen altogether, what about using 9 even and 3 odd cards? That way everyone is guaranteed to have 1 odd stat, with a maximum of 3 odd stats. So the total ability modifier difference between players can't vary by more than 2.
Sure, that could work.
Something like this?
3 cards each of 9, 8, 6 and 4. Shuffle and draw pairs. That way, if you get an odd stat, at least it's going to be a high one.
3D6 and 4D6K3 have been standard for a long time. 5D6K3 is an option in D&D 3.5 (Pathfinder uses 2D6+6 instead, slightly weaker).
6D6K3 is a continuation of the pattern. All 3 of my groups use very high-powered point-buy or fixed matrix for stats: 52pt 3.5 point-buy, {18con,18,16,14,12,10}, and {18,16,16,14,14,12}. At least 6D6K3, or more, is needed to match those with dice.
I think 2/3 of all prefer point buy. I prefer point buy myself.
There is a minority of purists out there that prefer to be strictly by the dice. These people tend to prefer 3D6 ironman, 4D6K3, or the 'organic' method - 4D6K3 in order, reroll one stat, then two stats can be switched.
My hybrid method is for people that are torn between the two, or as a compromise for GMs that want dice but the players want point-buy (or vice-versa).
My starting arrays are also mostly odd (only stats with 18 ceilings are even) so that rolling a 1 or a 3 will increase the bonus. 2 is no better than 1 and 4 is no better than 3 when it comes to bonus-yield. Bonus sum is the biggest measure of power from stats, more than point-buy-value or the stat sum.
Something I was trying out when making up some NPC's was a 4D6K3, and then adjusting the lowest 2 scores as I choose to match a given point buy. This was pretty easy in hero lab where I could set the point buy. but then roll to fill it in. Then see immediately the point buy totals when adjusting.
Error in your 4d6k3 figures, the first 9 in your 'start with' values should be an eleven instead of a nine. Either that or the error in in you Max values.
I like this method although some of the higher ones are way too powerful for my table.
Thanks for sharing!
Most of the time I prefer the fairness of point buy over the weird differences in luck that rolling gets you.
However, I miss the way a random-ish array makes you puzzle out what kind of person would fit these stats. Point-buy tends to make rather predictable stats.
The card draw method seems like a decent compromise; it smoothes over the worst inequalities but keeps some of the surprise. I'm going to propose the idea to my players, see how they feel about it.
That's why I came up with the mostly random option i listed above. No reason you can't run it STR->CHR, so you'll get a totally random mix, but it is tweaked to meet point buy consistency (without the prejudiced picks that point buy creates). It was perfect for rolling a bunch of NPC's, and a fun solo activity (at least for me) rolling mostly randomly, including random background generation (Ultimate Campaign style) - and then writing up a realistic backstory from the totally random results... good times. It's like internal improv.
Yeah the sum/bonus was too low in the max. Both the max and the min have to drop by 2 because I don't want the max to be more than 2 standard deviations above the mean (average of the 3 z-scores). 89 sum / 12 bonus has a +2.7 z-score on the point-buy value.
89sum / 12 bonus / 18 max / 11 min is only producing 3 results and certainly no exact match on the array in a pool of 65536 rolled stat arrays.
87sum / 11 bonus / 18 max / 11 min produces 8 results from the 65536 pool, but 5 of the results are an exact match on the array (after sorting).
I'll update the post with the fix (if it lets me, else I'll make a new post).
Fixed 4D6K3. The plain-english instructions (last line of the block) were actually correct.
Also nerfed down the high-stat in 3D6 by 2pts.
All ranges (other than the single fixed-18 in 5D6K3 and 6D6K3) are 1D4+xx. Z-Scores are for StatSum, BonusSum, and PointBuyPFSum. Z-Score is (Value-Avg)/StdDev
3D6 targeted power level:
Min: {12,12,10,10, 8, 8}: 60 tot, 10.00 avg, 0 bonus, 45.5 Ntile, -0.4/-0.0/-0.3 Z-score
Max: {15,15,13,13,11,11}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 6 bonus, 95.4 Ntile, +2.1/+1.6/+1.7 Z-score
Avg: {14,13,12,11,10, 9}: 69 tot, 11.83 avg, 3 bonus, 77.6 Ntile, +0.8/+0.8/+0.6 Z-score
1D4+11, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7, 1D4+7
Start with {11,11,9,9,7,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
4D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {15,14,12,10,10, 8}: 69 tot, 11.50 avg, 4 bonus, 31.9 Ntile, -0.6/-0.3/-0.6 Z-score
Max: {18,17,15,13,13,11}: 87 tot, 14.50 avg, 11 bonus, 96.4 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {17,15,14,12,11, 9}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 7 bonus, 71.6 Ntile, +0.6/+0.5/+0.7 Z-score
1D4+14, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7
Start with {14,13,11,9,9,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
5D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,14,14,12,10,10}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 9 bonus, 49.0 Ntile, -0.4/+0.1/-0.1 Z-score
Max: {18,17,17,15,13,13}: 93 tot, 15.50 avg, 14 bonus, 96.5 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {18,16,15,14,12,11}: 86 tot, 14.33 avg, 12 bonus, 83.6 Ntile, +0.8/+1.0/+1.0 Z-score
18, 1D4+13, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {13,13,11,9,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
6D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,15,15,12,12,10}: 82 tot, 13.67 avg, 10 bonus, 33.7 Ntile, -0.6/-0.5/-0.3 Z-score
Max: {18,18,18,15,15,13}: 97 tot, 16.16 avg, 17 bonus, 98.1 Ntile, +2.0/+1.9/+2.1 Z-score
Avg: {18,17,16,14,13,12}: 90 tot, 15.00 avg, 14 bonus, 80.6 Ntile, +0.8/+0.9/+0.8 Z-score
18, 1D4+14, 1D4+14, 1D4+11, 1D4+11, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {14,14,11,11,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
Added 3.5 and Pathfinder point-buy costs.
The PB sum and stat sum will be inflated relative to the bonus sum because of the un-optimal odd-number valued stats. The true measure of power is the bonus total, though bonuses in the primary and to a lesser extent secondary stats of a class affect power more than the other stats
The sets are for a bottom of a medicore, slightly bad roll to ceiling of a pretty good but not ridiculously lucky roll on the dice combinations. Extreme bonus sum differences are 6, typical 3.
3D6 targeted power level:
Min: {12,12,10,10, 8, 8}: 60 tot, 10.00 avg, 0 bonus, 0 PB-35, 0 PB-PF, 45.5 Ntile, -0.4/-0.0/-0.3 Z-score
Max: {15,15,13,13,11,11}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 6 bonus, 32 PB-35, 22 PB-PF, 95.4 Ntile, +2.1/+1.6/+1.7 Z-score
Avg: {14,13,12,11,10, 9}: 69 tot, 11.83 avg, 3 bonus, 22 PB-35, 10 PB-PF, 77.6 Ntile, +0.8/+0.8/+0.6 Z-score
1D4+11, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7, 1D4+7
Start with {11,11,9,9,7,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
4D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {15,14,12,10,10, 8}: 69 tot, 11.50 avg, 4 bonus, 22 PB-35, 12 PB-PF, 31.9 Ntile, -0.6/-0.3/-0.6 Z-score
Max: {18,17,15,13,13,11}: 87 tot, 14.50 avg, 11 bonus, 50 PB-35, 44 PB-PF, 96.4 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {17,15,14,12,11, 9}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 7 bonus, 35 PB-35, 27 PB-PF, 71.6 Ntile, +0.6/+0.5/+0.7 Z-score
1D4+14, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9, 1D4+7
Start with {14,13,11,9,9,7}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
5D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,14,14,12,10,10}: 78 tot, 13.00 avg, 9 bonus, 36 PB-35, 29 PB-PF, 49.0 Ntile, -0.4/+0.1/-0.1 Z-score
Max: {18,17,17,15,13,13}: 93 tot, 15.50 avg, 14 bonus, 60 PB-35, 56 PB-PF, 96.5 Ntile, +1.9/+1.6/+2.2 Z-score
Avg: {18,16,15,14,12,11}: 86 tot, 14.33 avg, 12 bonus, 47 PB-35, 42 PB-PF, 83.6 Ntile, +0.8/+1.0/+1.0 Z-score
18, 1D4+13, 1D4+13, 1D4+11, 1D4+9, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {13,13,11,9,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
6D6K3 targeted power level:
Min: {18,15,15,12,12,10}: 82 tot, 13.67 avg, 10 bonus, 42 PB-35, 35 PB-PF, 33.7 Ntile, -0.6/-0.5/-0.3 Z-score
Max: {18,18,18,15,15,13}: 97 tot, 16.17 avg, 17 bonus, 54 PB-35, 50 PB-PF, 98.1 Ntile, +2.0/+1.9/+2.1 Z-score
Avg: {18,17,16,14,13,12}: 90 tot, 15.00 avg, 14 bonus, 69 PB-35, 68 PB-PF, 80.6 Ntile, +0.8/+0.9/+0.8 Z-score
18, 1D4+14, 1D4+14, 1D4+11, 1D4+11, 1D4+9
Automatic 18 for 1st stat. For remaining 5 stats, start with {14,14,11,11,9}. Roll 1D4 for each stat and add the result to that stat.
D&D Next (5E) point buy cost totals are always exactly 12 higher than the Pathfinder point-buy cost totals, as long as the lowest stat is 8 or higher.
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