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I've been trying to find a comprehensive list of ways to pull off a sneak attack (particularly for a ranged rogue, who struggles to flank). I haven't found one, so I figured I'd post the list I have so far. Links to any list others have posted would be very helpful (sorry if this is duplicate information!). I'm trying to keep this list limited to core Paizo (no 3rd party), as that's my limit when playing.
You won't sneak attack all the time, but it helps to know your options.
Sneak Attack Limits
-Target must have some effect that denies his dexterity bonus to AC (see below)
-Ranged sneak-attack only works within 30'
-You must be able to see target well enough to pick out vitals. Enemy cannot be benefiting from concealment, for example.
-Enemies immune to precision damage are immune to sneak attacks. These include Elemental, Incorporeal (except vs Ghost Touch), Ooze and sometimes Protean (actually, 50% chance to ignore).
Target Is Denied Dexterity Bonus
-Hasn't acted yet in combat (surprise round, you have a higher initiative, etc)
-Flanked (typically melee only, rare exceptions e.g. Unwitting Ally).
--Creatures immune to flanking include Ooze, Elemental and Swarm.
-Attacked by hidden/invisible sneak-attacker
--NOTE: Once you're spotted or no longer invisible, no more sneak-attacking. This means a full attack only gets 1 sneak attack in if the invisibility spell wears off after the attack or you fail the stealth check to stay hidden.
-Certain status effects, including: Stunned, Blinded, Cowering, Pinned
-Otherwise Helpless/Unconscious (sleeping, tied up, etc)
-Running (without Run feat)
-Squeezing through a space half its size
-Targeted by a successful Feint (typically melee only)
-Balancing (Grease spell, awkward catwalk or platform, etc)
That's not getting into any specific strategies for creating these opportunities (a list which is long indeed, and generally involves your party), but it hopefully covers the general bases. Am I missing any critical scenarios?
I recomend the Sniper rogue archetype. It increases the range by which you can apply sneak attack to a max of 90ft, and it reduces the range increment penalties when using bows and crossbows. Also, there' s a rogue talent that decreases the sniping penalty by half.
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-Enemies immune to precision damage are immune to sneak attacks. These include Elemental, Incorporeal (except vs Ghost Touch), Ooze and sometimes Protean (actually, 50% chance to ignore).
Swarms are also immune to Sneak Attack.
-Squeezing through a space half its size
Specifically, when using Escape Artist to squeeze through a space less than half your size.
-Balancing (Grease spell, awkward catwalk or platform, etc)
Specifically, when using Acrobatics to move at half speed on narrow surfaces and uneven ground (just wanted to be more specific than "balancing").
Also, "while climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC" (unless you have a Climb speed, of course).
You can eventually flank with a ranged weapon once you pick up Snap Shot.
Good point. I had forgotten about the Sniper archetype (I tend to not be able to take archetypes in our games).
By sniping penalty, do you mean Stealthy Sniper (-10 instead of -20 to stealth to stay hidden after attack)? Yea, if you're sniping from a hidden position, it's probably going to make or break your volley (or your spine, should they reach you). ^_^
Nefreet: Thank you for the catches and corrections.
I hadn't thought about Snap Shot, particularly with Improved Snap Shot when you're threatening 15 feet away. Either is still uncomfortably close, but the option to do it when you're able is powerful.
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Currently we play a 3 rogue team:
All 3 use greater invisibility.
One uses Dazzling Display & Shatter Defenses (currently Mythic levels of both, which speed things up).
One uses a bow (with snap shot 15' and dimensional abilities (though not yet flanking for themselves).
One uses melee with a dancing sword.
All total it makes a hell of a mess...
We are getting into a position now where we are using Sniper Goggles and just using ranged with the greater invisibility... because, well, why not?
Essentially, all you need to do sneak attack is #1 a foe that is subject to it, #2 concealment.
Wind Stance and Lightning Stance combined with Shot on the Run make a pretty nice "moving" Stealth monster as well. So you may only get 1 or 2 attacks a round, but you are guaranteed (almost, if you build for stealth) to never get hit and always do sneak attack damage.
You can eventually flank with a ranged weapon once you pick up Snap Shot.
That is a can of worms and not definitely true.
You should not rely on this, as there has never been a resolution. However, some developer comments hint strongly at the opposite conclusion.
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Really?
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
How could there be any argument against? The feat explicitly lets you threaten with a ranged weapon.
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You can eventually flank with a ranged weapon once you pick up Snap Shot.That is a can of worms and not definitely true.
You should not rely on this, as there has never been a resolution. However, some developer comments hint strongly at the opposite conclusion.
like the devs that wrote the dimensional feats that let you flank for yourself???!!!!
Yeh, I am trying to figure out how a specifically defined feat that lets you threaten 5' (and then 15' with greater) is anything like a "can of worms" and not "resolved."
Is the "can of worms" that it still provokes AoO (since the text isn't there that says it doesn't for NORMAL attacks)? That is about the only thing left out... and one might suppose that if an AoO didn't draw an AoO from someone else, then a normal attack wouldn't either.
When I looked at Snap Shot and Flanking, it seemed to add up. As long as you threaten a square, you can flank that square with an ally (with the right positioning). Snapshot causes you to threaten adjacent squares. Though future errata will be more definitive, and your GM is always the final judge.
I wish the devs were more on top of errata. These sorts of things matter. :(
Really?
How could there be any argument against? The feat explicitly lets you threaten with a ranged weapon.Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
Threaten in regards to AoO, I believe. But how someone 15 ft away, and potentially not even visible affects someones DEFENSES I don't get. To provide a flanking bonus to someone else, the target would have to be aware and focused on defending against the threatening assailant. Correct, RAW does not explicitly state this, but I don't play RAW, I play an RPG based on the pathfinder ruleset.
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Threaten in regards to AoO, I believe. But how someone 15 ft away, and potentially not even visible affects someones DEFENSES I don't get. To provide a flanking bonus to someone else, the target would have to be aware and focused on defending against the threatening assailant. Correct, RAW does not explicitly state this, but I don't play RAW, I play an RPG based on the pathfinder ruleset.
#1 You don't need to be visible to threaten someone else (they don't need to be aware of you even). #2 Flanking happens whether or not the person is aware of you also. You can be invisible with a 15' reach melee weapon and flank for someone, so with these feats, the same applies to a ranged weapon. No biggie.
Targets DO NOT need to be aware of anyone. That is why you get a bonus to hit (they are otherwise distracted) when flanking. The sudden stab in the back is the "otherwise distracted" that gives your flanking partner THEIR +2 bonus.
CraziFuzzy: I don't understand why it would only work in RAW. When flanking, you're dangerous to an opponent because you're drawing their attention in multiple conflicting directions and limiting their options, and that creates openings for both you and your flanking buddy. It's hard to defend on opposed sides effectively.
You can flank with reach weapons in their threat range. If you train to threaten just as effectively with a bow, why couldn't you use that to compromise your enemy's defenses?
As for invisibility, that gets into the separate issue of whether an invisible creature can flank normally. He could sure as hell exploit the opportunity...
Let me clarify my opinion on it:
ooooo
oBoCA
ooooo
ooooo
In this 'image'. C is actively defending against A. In which case, I believe that A WOULD be distracting C, and B should be able to ranged 'sneak attack' C. B, being there, however, does not necessarily distract C, therefore A would not be getting any flanking benefits. Lets not forget that for B to shoot at C while C is fighting A, B would take a -4 on attacks due to the close quarters of A&C (unless he's got precise shot - a 2 feat tree). Shooting into melee is actually inherently HARDER than shooting a lone enemy (well, I guess in theory you could choose not to shoot carefully, and if you miss, hit your friend), not easier.
For me, the shortcoming in the rules isn't necessarily who threatens whom, but who is engaged with whom. There is a note in the precise shot feat stating "NOTE: Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other." If flanking was written as such:
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by engaged with another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
it would make more sense and be far less confusing.
Now, just as the image above shows how the archer could gain advantage by a friend opposite the enemy, I also feel that:
ooooo
oACBo
ooooo
ooDoo
in the above image, A and B are flanking C. They each gain a +2 modifier on their hit, and they can take advantage of the enemies split attention to make precision strikes (sneak attack). C is obviously distracted, and even though D is not opposite someone, I fully believe the D would have a +2 advantage shooting at C. By the rules, he would not, as he'd need an ally opposite him, but how could C be distracted by A and B enough that they can take advantage, but D cannot?
I don't necessarily have a problem with the reasoning in the second example; in fact, it's any ranged attacker's dream. But you'd want to playtest that in a number of scenarios to make sure it's not horribly exploitable. And I don't just mean by the players -- monsters have sizable resources, and you could easily find your party in an inescapable total wipe situation simply because your monsters followed the rules of the world to their natural conclusion. ;)
The first example basically assumes the enemy is unaware of combatants who are not adjacent. The rules avoid doing this for a number of reasons, particularly because if they're not aware of you, you can sneak attack to your heart's content.
the offset being that usually, monsters aren't going to necessarily have precise shot, or sneak attack for that matter, so that 2nd example, D attacking C would have a -2 instead of a +2.
If I was doing a total combat rewrite, I'd involve focus counts instead of hard fast 'flanking' conditions. A given creature/character can choose to 'focus' on a given number of known assailants, meaning that's who he is actively defending against (and therefore gain dex and shield bonuses against). A single assailant takes 1 focus point. 2 assailants takes 2 focus points. 2 opposing assailants take 2 focus points, plus one focus point for being flanked. If a creature has more assailants than focus points, he is 'overwhelmed'. Attacking an overwhelmed creature allows precision strike capability, and a grants +2 circumstance bonus on attacks (melee or ranged). Focus points would potentially be wisdom based (as perception is).
As you mentioned, though, there are a ton of balance conseuqences for messing with this stuff, so it'd be hard to even houserule it at this point without a lot of playtesting. Could be fun though...
In any case, I still fail to see how Snap Shot (the ability to let loose a projectile in an instant, has anything to do with distracting an opponent. It does have everything to do with making attacks of opportunity against opponents to make stupid moves). To me, it's obvious that that is why the feat explicitly describes attacks of opportunity, and says nothing about flanking. The fact that AoO and Flanking both use the term 'threaten' is an unfortunate mistake.
If two Rogues have Snap Shot, and are standing on opposite sides of their opponent, wielding ranged weapons, then they both qualify for Sneak Attack damage.
You skipped the first five words of the description for Flanking, "When making a melee attack..."
Also, there's the FAQ against ranged flanking from APG's Gang Up feat.
You can threaten with Snap Shot and provide flanking benefits to someone on the other side of a target making a melee attack (even if that melee attacker doesn't threaten such as with a whip or unarmed strike), but 2 ranged attackers do not actually flank.
Get a Stag Lord Helm or something similar.
I recomend the Sniper rogue archetype. It increases the range by which you can apply sneak attack to a max of 90ft, and it reduces the range increment penalties when using bows and crossbows. Also, there' s a rogue talent that decreases the sniping penalty by half.
I really like those goggles
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If two Rogues have Snap Shot, and are standing on opposite sides of their opponent, wielding ranged weapons, then they both qualify for Sneak Attack damage.You skipped the first five words of the description for Flanking, "When making a melee attack..."
Also, there's the FAQ against ranged flanking from APG's Gang Up feat.
You can threaten with Snap Shot and provide flanking benefits to someone on the other side of a target making a melee attack (even if that melee attacker doesn't threaten such as with a whip or unarmed strike), but 2 ranged attackers do not actually flank.
Nothing to do with ranged attacks, but I was just going to mention Gang Up as one more way to get a sneak attack, since it lets you get the benefits of flanking without having to actually flank.
Those sniper goggles are indeed nice. ^_^ The stag helm isn't bad either.
Good point Sniggevert, I missed the melee part.
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If two Rogues have Snap Shot, and are standing on opposite sides of their opponent, wielding ranged weapons, then they both qualify for Sneak Attack damage.You skipped the first five words of the description for Flanking, "When making a melee attack..."
Also, there's the FAQ against ranged flanking from APG's Gang Up feat.
You can threaten with Snap Shot and provide flanking benefits to someone on the other side of a target making a melee attack (even if that melee attacker doesn't threaten such as with a whip or unarmed strike), but 2 ranged attackers do not actually flank.
I didn't miss those 5 words, Snap Shot simply makes them irrelevant.
And the FAQ for the Gang Up feat, is for the Gang Up feat. Not Snap Shot. I agree that if three Rogues (without Snap Shot) were wielding ranged weapons, then Gang Up would do nothing for them.
Toss in Snap Shot, and their target is in a world of hurt.
This seems rather clear to me, and I've never seen discussions to the contrary before. Might you have a link to one of them?
Snap Shot doesn't make them irrelevant. And that's what I was specifically referring to. The developers clarified flanking can be applied to melee only, that only melee qualifies to be flanking, and only they benefit from it.
Snap Shot doesn't change it. So, Snap Shot lets you threaten others. It allows you to provide flanking to others. It lets you make AoO. It doesn't let you as the bow wielder flank.
Here is one thread about the discussion. I'm sure there are several others.
Back to the original topic...
Don't forget Hunter's Surprise.
Hunter's Surprise (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can designate a single enemy she is adjacent to as her prey. Until the end of her next turn, she can add her sneak attack damage to all attacks made against her prey, even if she is not flanking it or it is not flat-footed.
Ruggs: Thanks for steering things back. Hunter's surprise is an excellent rogue talent for this, though an adjacent enemy is dangerous for a bow user... ;)
No action is specified though, so you could potentially designate the adjacent enemy as a free action (is that correct?), take a 5-foot step away, and unload arrows on the target. It lasts through your next turn, so when that starts 5-foot step back as needed and full-attack again, for two rounds of full sneak attacks.
Let's see if I can avoid screwing this up (eyeballing it at the end of the day, so I make no promises). At 10th level (the earliest you could do it), you're looking at 2 rounds of 4 arrows fired each (with rapid shot and manyshot) at +5(x2)/+5/+0. Of those arrows, those that hit deal 1d6 (shortbow) + 5d6 (sneak attack) + any other bonuses (point blank shot, arrow/bow effects, etc). Should everything hit, that's 48d6 + 8*dmg bonuses in 2 turns.
Am I getting that right? If so, no wonder it's 1x/day only. ^_^ Still, that generously assumes everything hits at rogue's poor accuracy (including the rapid shot penalty and possibly firing into melee if you didn't grab precise shot).
Enemies at L10 will not be eager to let you do that often without resistance and retribution. They'll quickly conclude that letting you fire from safety or step back is not allowed, and keep you swarmed. Ah the counter-play.
I would recommend a splash of fighter or ranger to get Point Blank Master and/or weapon specialization, but bleh. By bwain ish tyrd.
But how someone 15 ft away, and potentially not even visible affects someones DEFENSES I don't get.Everything in the round happens at the same time, we just take turns as players to keep things organized. When you are flanking somebody you don't go up to them and sit and wait for them to finish what they are doing, it just SEEMS that way because in real life we do.
You may be invisible, but your attacks are not, they are engaged with the person in front of them and now for some reason there are arrows coming out of nowhere behind him. That is quite enough in my book to get them worried about protecting both sides of themselves, in other words being flanked
Hmmm:
OAOOO
OCOOB
OOOOO
ODOOO
Except the contention here is that just because the archer HAS improved snap shot, he provides flanking for the melee guy, simply due to his positioning - even if he is facing the other way. Referring to the above layout, to say that improved snap shot provides flanking would mean that A gets the +2 on C, simply because D is sitting where he is - even if D is actually shooting at B - This is what I meant by the difference between 'threatening' or 'engaged'. The concept of a 'threatened square' has everything to do with AoO, but should have nothing to do, on its own, with flanking.
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Remember, the original thread subject is ways to get a sneak attack, not necessarily just for bow users.
Here's another one that I don't think has been mentioned: level 5 of the Halfling Opportunist prestige class makes all attacks of opportunity into sneak attacks. Not something that will come up very often, but if we're doing a comprehensive list...
So, a Halfling 5th level Opportunist with Snapshot, etc. should be able to Sneak Attack with thrown weapons/missile weapons? That sounds promissing. :)