The most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures in the bestiaries.


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Celanian wrote:
I'm not sure that the 50 pound weight limit for teleport should include a monster's normal gear. Look at some other Outsiders such as Star Archon. They wear large full plate and large heavy steel shield which is well above 50 pounds. I don't think the intent was that they couldn't teleport in their standard gear.

I think it is more likely that the designers forgot about that limitation when designing the creature and it's item loadout.


Celanian wrote:
I'm not sure that the 50 pound weight limit for teleport should include a monster's normal gear. Look at some other Outsiders such as Star Archon. They wear large full plate and large heavy steel shield which is well above 50 pounds. I don't think the intent was that they couldn't teleport in their standard gear.

The problem is that its based of the Teleport line of spells which specifically *are* limited by the weight of your gear. The racial abilities would have to add an extra line to include equipped things +50lbs for that to work.

(the normal limit being a maximum load for the creature casting the spell).

-S


I know the RAW is pretty specific. I just don't think it's RAI. Highly competent outsiders with thousands of years of life and 20+ int and wis shouldn't go running round in gear that prevents them from teleporting.

If I were to make a ruling, I would say that any personal gear listed in an outsider's stat block is attuned to them and don't count toward the weight limit. If they replace the gear, it takes them 1 day of wearing/wielding the gear to attune the new gear.

I know it's just a house rule and not what the rules actually state, but it makes much more sense to me to do it this way.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Can a change in tactics shake things up enough to alter the challenge of a creature, to better fit its CR?


Cussune wrote:
Can a change in tactics shake things up enough to alter the challenge of a creature, to better fit its CR?

Yes. Anything that provides unusually favorable circumstances to one side or the other can affect the encounter's CR.

Most entries assume tactical behavior, though, unless the monster in question is mindless. I'd increase the CR of a mindless construct if it were granted sentience since constructs are often defeat able by simply outwitting them, but a sapient wolf wouldn't really change much in and of itself as hunter animals are more than capable of basic tactics (suh as flanking, avoiding attacks of opportunity, and so on).

Silver Crusade

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What I find sad is I think the rationale behind the 50lb limit was never equipment. My theory is that it was to avoid the old, terrifying, tactic of fiends from 2e.

The 'divide and conquer' tactic.

A fiend would show up, grab onto your arm or something (using the old 2e method where they would just do such things, or would claw you and thus be 'holding you') and teleport away with you.

Then, with you in their perfectly sealed room of woe, would proceed to beat the everloving crap out of you without the benefit of your allies to help you.

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Celanian wrote:
If I were to make a ruling, I would say that any personal gear listed in an outsider's stat block is attuned to them and don't count toward the weight limit. If they replace the gear, it takes them 1 day of wearing/wielding the gear to attune the new gear.

Limiting it to a 'light load' might be a simpler houserule and makes it somewhat mirror flying creatures.

Edit: Or make them look up what a 'light load' would be based on their Charisma score, since that tends to be not quite as crazy as strength. The point of that limit is they can't bring passengers and have to be somewhat economical with gear. Not 50 as a specific number.


That'd be a fairly smart house rule.

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Tels wrote:

Could the Marilith not just use weapons two-haned, thus cutting her number of necessary weapons in half and increasing the damage per swing, while funneling the extra gold into her defenses?

Seems kind of a win-win in my book.

What extra gold? A marilith's weapons are +1 because she has a racial ability that makes any weapon she holds at least a +1.


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Vart the Fire Man wrote:


So it begs the question. IF you can use treasure to improve a monster, and that improvement DOESN'T increase the CR, then why are creatures with Treasure none equal in CR to creatures with Treasure double or Treasure triple? Why are a Mithral Golem and Plasma Ooze equal in CR with a Planetar and Mature Adult Gold Dragon?

I think a lot of the problem with the CR conversation is some were speaking of CR by the rules, and others like myself were speaking of "effective CR(difficulty)" which should equate to an actual CR.

As an example you can add enough non-key classes, add treasure, and change feats, and the CR by the rules won't change, but the difficulty can go up by a lot. So technically the CR should be ad-hoc'd if you do this, but RAW the CR may never change.

PS: Now I don't change the CR even after adjusting difficulty if the group is optimized because I don't think stock monsters can stand up to good players and/or optimized characters.


Back on my buddy the maralith, her "to hit" has to be increased. I would add a few HD which would also boost saves, and then give her a profane bonus to her attacks or maybe even damage.
Run, the numbers, and increase damage again if possible.

Changing out her SLA's, and giving her the ability to more likely bring in demons by summoning is also a good idea. Flight as an SU do it can't be dispelled might also work.

As for Astral Projection I would give her SLA's that work with it, or dump it for something else like Limited Wish.

PS: I am not looking at her statblock right now.


I'd be tempted to swap out a couple of her feats for Multiweapon Fighting and Improved Multiweapon Fighting. With 25 attacks a round, some of them are bound to get through. I'd also give her scimitars instead of longswords, dramatically increasing the chances of activating her Bleeding Critical feat.

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Blade barrier and telekinesis do work with project image.

A marilith's battle plan should roughly look like this:

1) Cast project image from hiding. (If possible, do this from around a corner by casting project image via a projected image.)

2) Have the projected image surround itself in a blade barrier.

3) When the foolhardy adventurers manage to bust down the door, have the image attack them with telekinesis (15 attacks at +20 each, dealing damage depending on whats in the room. If its a marilith's lair, I'd assume assorted large-size melee weapons for an average of 2d6 damage each.) Or use telekinesis to disarm foes of things like bows and holy symbols (Remember, you have Improved Disarm).

Someone will probably soak a round of damage from the blade barrier trying to charge the image before realizing its an illusion. (And will have to do so again to get out, because now its inside the circle.)

Now the gig is up. If the layout of the lair allows it, this might repeat for the next projected image, otherwise, now it's combat time.

4) Keep pummeling with telekinesis until someone makes the Perception check to find you. Once they do, surround yourself with your second blade barrier for the AC boost and the deal damage to any melee trying to reach you.

5) When you get attacked, remember that unholy aura means anything Good that hits you takes 1d6 Strength damage unless they make a DC 25 Fort save.

6) Don't use your full attack for damage. You have Improved Disarm. Make sure that melee foes can't hit you back. Hit for damage only once their hands are empty, and use your Combat Reflexes if they try to pick up the weapons.

7) Don't be afraid to teleport away to get some breathing room and set up another project image in the next room. Taking one AoO is better than taking a full attack. And leaving melee foes on the inside of your blade barrier is funny. Take the chance to summon some Hezrous: they can spam blasphemy, chaos hammer, and unholy blight.

You can be very inventive with telekinesis, also. Close doors, trigger traps. It's a flexible spell.

Edit: Kirth's suggestions are also excellent, but this is stock.


wraithstrike wrote:
I think a lot of the problem with the CR conversation is some were speaking of CR by the rules, and others like myself were speaking of "effective CR(difficulty)" which should equate to an actual CR.

I was more interested in how you can compare the Mithral Golem with a Planetar that has spent it's double treasure on buffing it's abilities, when they're both the same CR. I know you can customize monsters to fit a GM's personal view of CR, but the topic of the thread is over and underrated, and in that light, I could almost say all Treasure none monsters are overrated for their CR. That is, if it's acceptable to spend that treasure to improve the creature.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'd be tempted to swap out a couple of her feats for Multiweapon Fighting and Improved Multiweapon Fighting. With 25 attacks a round, some of them are bound to get through. I'd also give her scimitars instead of longswords, dramatically increasing the chances of activating her Bleeding Critical feat.

I didn't think that Improved Multiweapon Fighting existed in Pathfinder. :\


Ashiel wrote:
I didn't think that Improved Multiweapon Fighting existed in Pathfinder. :\

I should have known that anything providing a martial boost got nerfed in the transition from 3.5...


Vart the Fire Man wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think a lot of the problem with the CR conversation is some were speaking of CR by the rules, and others like myself were speaking of "effective CR(difficulty)" which should equate to an actual CR.
I was more interested in how you can compare the Mithral Golem with a Planetar that has spent it's double treasure on buffing it's abilities, when they're both the same CR. I know you can customize monsters to fit a GM's personal view of CR, but the topic of the thread is over and underrated, and in that light, I could almost say all Treasure none monsters are overrated for their CR. That is, if it's acceptable to spend that treasure to improve the creature.

It has been my experience that most "Treasure none" or "Treasure incidental" monsters don't have any use for equipment. For example, a tiger doesn't need anything to wreck your face.

Of course, even if the tiger was a little weaker (which I'm not convinced of by the way) than creatures with treasure of the same CR, you're also not getting rewarded as much for killing one ('cause it has treasure none or incidental).


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
I didn't think that Improved Multiweapon Fighting existed in Pathfinder. :\
I should have known that anything providing a martial boost got nerfed in the transition from 3.5...

Well, I don't think it's so much a nerf so much as they never ported all the feats from the SRD. The Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting feats come from the non-epic feats in the Epic portion of the 3.5 SRD.

However, a maralith would qualify for MWF, IMWF, and GMWF if they were allowed, as she has the requisite Dexterity, Arms, and BAB.


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Ross Byers wrote:

Blade barrier and telekinesis do work with project image.

A marilith's battle plan should roughly look like this:

1) Cast project image from hiding. (If possible, do this from around a corner by casting project image via a projected image.)

2) Have the projected image surround itself in a blade barrier.

1/3 casts down.

Quote:
3) When the foolhardy adventurers

The foolhardy adventurers died a long time ago.

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manage to bust down the door, have the image attack them with telekinesis (20 attacks at +20 each, dealing damage depending on whats in the room. If its a marilith's lair, I'd assume assorted large-size melee weapons for an average of 2d6 damage each.) Or use telekinesis to disarm foes of things like bows and holy symbols (Remember, you have Improved Disarm).

If the party was 14th level (APL+3, as in the Marilith is an "Epic" encounter), a 3/4 BAB character has 20 CMD before Strength, Dexterity, Dodge, Deflection, Insight, or feats. Anyone with Defensive Combat Training or a good BAB is sitting at 24 + mods. The chances of TK-maneuvering actually succeeding is slim. Especially sine anyone with a brain at this level has five keyrings of holy symbols and a utility belt of spell pouches.

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Someone will probably soak a round of damage from the blade barrier trying to charge the image before realizing its an illusion. (And will have to do so again to get out, because now its inside the circle.)

They would do what now!? Why the heck would they ever do that? Why would you charge through an AoE to get into melee? Shoot the damned thing. The illusion is sitting out in a blade barrier. The blade barrier does not provide total cover or concealment, and the illusion has a cruddy AC. Pew, pew, pew.

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Now the gig is up. If the layout of the lair allows it, this might repeat for the next projected image, otherwise, now it's combat time.

It costed the party 1 arrow and maybe a move action to pick holy symbol #35 off the ground.

Quote:
4) Keep pummeling with telekinesis until someone makes the Perception check to find you. Once they do, surround yourself with your second blade barrier for the AC boost and the deal damage to any melee trying to reach you.

Pew, pew, pew, pew.

Quote:
5) When you get attacked, remember that unholy aura means anything Good that hits you takes 1d6 Strength damage unless they make a DC 25 Fort save.

Pew, pew, pew, pew.

Quote:
6) Don't use your full attack for damage. You have Improved Disarm. Make sure that melee foes can't hit you back. Hit for damage only once their hands are empty, and use your Combat Reflexes if they try to pick up the weapons.

Fishing for 20s to disarm someone is cute. CMD is going to be even higher than their AC, because unlike AC, CMD takes into account 10 + BAB + Str + Dex + Deflection + Dodge + Insight + *insert favorite random bonus here*. Even if you manage to disarm something, you just get smashed with a secondary weapon or a gauntlet, or they eat the AoO to pick the weapon back up. Or if they happen to be a switch-hitter (like most rangers and fighters) they don't even stop their full-attacking to rip you a new one.

Quote:
7) Don't be afraid to teleport away to get some breathing room and set up another project image in the next room. Taking one AoO is better than taking a full attack. And leaving melee foes on the inside of your blade barrier is funny. Take the chance to summon some Hezrous: they can spam blasphemy, chaos hammer, and unholy blight.

Casting defensively is probably better than eating the AoO given that you're probably going to fail the Concentration check if you take a sword to the face while trying to concentrate on your SLA. You're also going to need quicken-SLA to get a blade barrier up AND teleport away (except neither of those can be quickened on a maralith's caster level), but given that you probably got planted with a dimensional anchor you probably don't have to worry about that.

If you win the slot roll and get some hezrous, then the fight begins to look somewhat interesting, but that's mostly because of the Hezrous. Notice when I mentioned a better encounter than a maralith for the same CR, I mentioned a few hezrous with some demonic backup. If the Maralith wins her summon-lotto, the hezrous can actually put some pressure on the party with chip damage while the party curbstomps the Marilith and then moves onto the summons (of course since they're summoned, they might just sweep the field with holy word and be done with it).

I can't fathom how anyone who would "charge through a blade barrier to engage the melee-enemy in melee" ever reach the point that they could actually fight a Marilith for real.


Vart the Fire Man wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think a lot of the problem with the CR conversation is some were speaking of CR by the rules, and others like myself were speaking of "effective CR(difficulty)" which should equate to an actual CR.
I was more interested in how you can compare the Mithral Golem with a Planetar that has spent it's double treasure on buffing it's abilities, when they're both the same CR. I know you can customize monsters to fit a GM's personal view of CR, but the topic of the thread is over and underrated, and in that light, I could almost say all Treasure none monsters are overrated for their CR. That is, if it's acceptable to spend that treasure to improve the creature.

The idea is that you run the monsters as they are in the books. If you use the treasure you are ad-hocing, which as a said before is not a bad thing, but the games builds the monsters "ready to go".

Silver Crusade

Ross Byers wrote:

Blade barrier and telekinesis do work with project image.

A marilith's battle plan should roughly look like this:

1) Cast project image from hiding. (If possible, do this from around a corner by casting project image via a projected image.)

2) Have the projected image surround itself in a blade barrier.

3) When the foolhardy adventurers manage to bust down the door, have the image attack them with telekinesis (15 attacks at +20 each, dealing damage depending on whats in the room. If its a marilith's lair, I'd assume assorted large-size melee weapons for an average of 2d6 damage each.) Or use telekinesis to disarm foes of things like bows and holy symbols (Remember, you have Improved Disarm).

Someone will probably soak a round of damage from the blade barrier trying to charge the image before realizing its an illusion. (And will have to do so again to get out, because now its inside the circle.)

Now the gig is up. If the layout of the lair allows it, this might repeat for the next projected image, otherwise, now it's combat time.

(...)
7) Don't be afraid to teleport away to get some breathing room and set up another project image in the next room. Taking one AoO is better than taking a full attack. And leaving melee foes on the inside of your blade barrier is funny. Take the chance to...

I support the ra-ra Marilith argument (who doesn't like multi-armed demonic snake ladies) but..

Remember who's engaging her.

Its entirely likely the mage of the party has a bunch of arcane sight/see invisibility shennigans perm'd on him, and frankly by this point adventurers are usually justifiably cagey regarding potential illusions. They might just rush forward, but if they know they're engaging fiends, someone probably has a geegaw of true seeing somewhere, and thats if the party doesn't have it cast already.

On 7, what is this 'attack of opportunity' you speak of? She's got a Caster Level 16 and a charisma of 25 (thats a +7 mod) meaning she's got an effective +23 on concentration checks, and she only needs to roll a 6 to hit the DC of 29 for cautious spell-like invocation.

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Ashiel wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:


A marilith's battle plan should roughly look like this:

They would do what now!? Why the heck would they ever do that? Why would you charge through an AoE to get into melee? Shoot the damned thing. The illusion is sitting out in a blade barrier. The blade barrier does not provide total cover or concealment, and the illusion has a cruddy AC. Pew, pew, pew.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. The marilith WILL loose, and lose quickly, against a 17th level party. That's how the CR system works. I'm more interested in how it does as a dungeon-ending APL +3/4 battle against foes that have already spent some spell slots.

Its attacks are a lot more likely to hit against 13 or 14th level characters.

All I was trying to say is the abilities DO have synergy.

(And that there are lots of fighters/barbarians/cavaliers who would rather charge and do melee damage with a huge attack bonus than shoot through a blade barrier (+4 AC) with their dexterity mod and less damage.)


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I'd prefer not to build my genius (Int 18) enemies around the dumbest player tactics available. Besides they're leaders they should always have minions with them anyways. Also the example Ashiel gave was for a level 14 party.


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Most dragons aren't as nasty as the CR however ancient red dragons are hideously under CR'ed.

Round 1: Anti magic field, move within reach.

Good luck fighting an ancient red dragon with no magic. With AC 38 and you only get base STR + base BAB which is 19+ about 6 +25/20/15 vs AC 38. Base STR + PA only. He get's to annihilate your squishes from the safety of an AMF while you guys die.

A perfect example of why.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html


All dragons with good caster level relative to their CR are under CRed due to spellcasting be valued to low in estimations.

Silver Crusade

You don't even need amf, at lower tiers, the dragons can make their already good ACs even more insanely high by casting mage armor and shield on themselves, both little first level buffs.


Spook205 wrote:
You don't even need amf, at lower tiers, the dragons can make their already good ACs even more insanely high by casting mage armor and shield on themselves, both little first level buffs.

It isn't about the near immunity to melee attackers it's about the near absolute immunity to all spells other than prismatic sphere and prismatic wall.


Undone wrote:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

Bit of an unfortunate example, since Forcecage isn't affected by Anti-Magic field. There was a fair bit of debate on #627 in the OotS-forums.

A forcecage is actually a really good way to stop an ancient red dragon - his reflex save is fairly poor, Forcecage doesn't care about spell resistance, the majority of the dragon's attacks won't be able to penetrate DR 30, and he's (understandably) short on direct damage spells.

His best options are

A: To use his breath attack to take it down, but assuming average damage dealt (110 damage), a CL 13 Forcecage (260 HP) would withstand two breath attacks before succumbing.

B: To polymorph into a creature that will fit through the half-inch gaps in the forcecage. I can't think of an animal off the top of my head, but you could probably find something appropriate by scouring the bestiaries for an appropriate animal.

C. To cast disintegrate via Limited Wish. This should probably be at the top, but it assumes the dragon has a 1500 GP diamond on hand. Not a huge leap for an ancient dragon, but he might be using it as a pillow rather than keeping it on hand for Wish spells.

Edit: aaand I misread Teleport as Telekinesis on the red dragon's spell list. That's what I get for skimming stat blocks. :)

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If the dragon is in an A-M shell when the forcecage comes up around it, it doesn't have a breath weapon. Nor spells. But I'm not sure the forcecage would be big enough to contain it and the shell? Have to see. It can, however, Power Attack for everything it's worth and start chipping away at the cage.

But definitely, once it's up the A-M shell should have no effect on it.

==Aelryinth


Undone wrote:

Most dragons aren't as nasty as the CR however ancient red dragons are hideously under CR'ed.

Round 1: Anti magic field, move within reach.

Good luck fighting an ancient red dragon with no magic. With AC 38 and you only get base STR + base BAB which is 19+ about 6 +25/20/15 vs AC 38. Base STR + PA only. He get's to annihilate your squishes from the safety of an AMF while you guys die.

A perfect example of why.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

Curious, how does AMF protect a collossal red dragon when parts of it won't be in the AMF? Per the description of AMF, any creature larger than 10 feet would have parts of it outside the field and thus not protected.

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Molten Dragon wrote:
Undone wrote:

Most dragons aren't as nasty as the CR however ancient red dragons are hideously under CR'ed.

Round 1: Anti magic field, move within reach.

Good luck fighting an ancient red dragon with no magic. With AC 38 and you only get base STR + base BAB which is 19+ about 6 +25/20/15 vs AC 38. Base STR + PA only. He get's to annihilate your squishes from the safety of an AMF while you guys die.

A perfect example of why.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

Curious, how does AMF protect a collossal red dragon when parts of it won't be in the AMF? Per the description of AMF, any creature larger than 10 feet would have parts of it outside the field and thus not protected.

That is one of the vague parts of AMF. By RAW, you're absolutely correct, but the rules can get awkward if you're assuming part of the creature is outside the field. Instead, one could argue that the field extends 10 feet from the creature. More powerful on larger creatures, sure, but avoids a lot of awkwardness.

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Kudaku wrote:
Bit of an unfortunate example, since Forcecage isn't affected by Anti-Magic field.

Nothing specifically says forcecage is unaffected by antimagic field, since it is not the same as a wall of force. Another rules gray area. (So the OotS example managed to expose two weird corner cases, simultaneously.)


Black dragons never grow bigger than gargantuan, so they should fit (snugly) inside a forcecage - a gargantuan creature occupies 20 feet, a forcecage can contain a 20 feet cube.

@Molten Dragon
I think that antimagic's "10 foot emanation centered on you" translates to "10 feet outside the space you occupy". Otherwise there are a lot of spells that won't work very well with large casters. Then again, that would also mean that some casters benefit greatly from being larger than medium - Globe of Invulnerability would become a dramatically better spell if cast by a huge caster, since it would easily fill an entire room.

...That's a really interesting question, actually.

@Aelryinth

Man, that is an AWESOME way to counter a dragon who relies on AMF and wrecking face with his claws. He either has to dismiss AMF in order to Wish/breath attack/polymorph out, or spend the next minute slowly clawing his way out of the cage.

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Besides they're leaders they should always have minions with them anyways.

Definitely true.


Undone wrote:

Most dragons aren't as nasty as the CR however ancient red dragons are hideously under CR'ed.

Round 1: Anti magic field, move within reach.

Good luck fighting an ancient red dragon with no magic. With AC 38 and you only get base STR + base BAB which is 19+ about 6 +25/20/15 vs AC 38. Base STR + PA only. He get's to annihilate your squishes from the safety of an AMF while you guys die.

A perfect example of why.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

While this might be true against martial characters against competent spellcasters it is likely to go more like this:

Sub level 17/18:

Dragon: Casts AMF, moves forward
Caster: Employs emergency force sphere as it approaches which hedges out the effect of AMF. Turn invisible, move to long range, employ preferred means of dragon killing as it is too big to fit entirely within the AMF.

Post level 17/18:

Dragon: Casts AMF, moves forward.
Caster: Murders dragon with preferred reflex based save or suck while safely protected by Arodens Spellbane. Dazing ball lightning is a favourite but lots of other options exist


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I got tired of talking about the Marilith instead of doing something about it. Here ya go guys.

Ashiel's Improved Marilith: Not Suck Edition.


Ross Byers wrote:
Molten Dragon wrote:
Undone wrote:

Most dragons aren't as nasty as the CR however ancient red dragons are hideously under CR'ed.

Round 1: Anti magic field, move within reach.

Good luck fighting an ancient red dragon with no magic. With AC 38 and you only get base STR + base BAB which is 19+ about 6 +25/20/15 vs AC 38. Base STR + PA only. He get's to annihilate your squishes from the safety of an AMF while you guys die.

A perfect example of why.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

Curious, how does AMF protect a collossal red dragon when parts of it won't be in the AMF? Per the description of AMF, any creature larger than 10 feet would have parts of it outside the field and thus not protected.
That is one of the vague parts of AMF. By RAW, you're absolutely correct, but the rules can get awkward if you're assuming part of the creature is outside the field. Instead, one could argue that the field extends 10 feet from the creature. More powerful on larger creatures, sure, but avoids a lot of awkwardness.

Basically in the game I was GMing I had a colossal dragon attack the PCs. Long story short, the dragon dropped AMF on itself. Player says is there any square the dragon is in that's not protected by the field so we looked up AMF:

Antimagic Field
School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
...
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

I had to answer yes to his question because the colossal dragon is larger than 10 feet.

The 10' radius emanation portion seems to be at odds with the last bolded paragraph.

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Molten Dragon wrote:
The 10' radius emanation portion seems to be at odds with the last bolded paragraph.

Not really. I read it as being relevant if you're doing something like making an attack with 15 or 20 foot reach.


Ross Byers wrote:
Tels wrote:

Could the Marilith not just use weapons two-haned, thus cutting her number of necessary weapons in half and increasing the damage per swing, while funneling the extra gold into her defenses?

Seems kind of a win-win in my book.

What extra gold? A marilith's weapons are +1 because she has a racial ability that makes any weapon she holds at least a +1.

They're still masterwork longswords however, large ones at that. It's not a lot of gold, but it's still some. The primary purpose, though, is decreasing the amount of weight carried, while also making her a more imposing threat in melee.


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If a creature is going to use antimagic field on large creatures, it would behoove them to equip the creature with a Rod of Widen so they can fit.

Edit] Also, Ashiel, that is one badass Marilith.

My Monk of the Four Winds 12/Mythic Champion 4 went up against a Mythic Marilith in Legacy of Fire and I have to say, your Marilith is probably a larger threat because she has more options. The Mythic Marilith is basically just a Marilith with bigger numbers.

[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(


Tels wrote:

If a creature is going to use antimagic field on large creatures, it would behoove them to equip the creature with a Rod of Widen so they can fit.

Edit] Also, Ashiel, that is one badass Marilith.

My Monk of the Four Winds 12/Mythic Champion 4 went up against a Mythic Marilith in Legacy of Fire and I have to say, your Marilith is probably a larger threat because she has more options. The Mythic Marilith is basically just a Marilith with bigger numbers.

Thanks. Having options is pretty much mandatory at this level. Even fighters have crazy movement forms at this level. This Maralith, I feel, lives up to her hype, and while still squishy in the AC department she's more frightening in the offense department, especially after buffing.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Adding Greater Magic Weapon is an incredibly simple change and yet it does so much for the marilith - really nice fix. :)


Tels wrote:
[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(

Here you go. ^_^

Awesome Marilith


Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(

Here you go. ^_^

Awesome Marilith

Thanks, but I just downloaded it to get around Google.


Kudaku wrote:
Adding Greater Magic Weapon is an incredibly simple change and yet it does so much for the marilith - really nice fix. :)

Thanks. I thought it (it being GMW) was nice. At this level the Marilith is still relatively easy to debuff (greater magic weapon or a scroll of mage's disjunction in an emergency "boss fight"), which can take a big sting out of things. Likewise, parties have access to things like heal and such. A 14th+ level party will do fine. ^_^


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(

Here you go. ^_^

Awesome Marilith
Thanks, but I just downloaded it to get around Google.

Woot. Also, I recently found out I can do revisions with google drive, which is going to make updating some of my older projects waaaaaay more appealing. :)


Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(

Here you go. ^_^

Awesome Marilith
Thanks, but I just downloaded it to get around Google.
Woot. Also, I recently found out I can do revisions with google drive, which is going to make updating some of my older projects waaaaaay more appealing. :)

I've recently switched to Microsoft One Drive because I don't have to change links and it doesn't degrade the quality like Google Drive does. In One Drive, if I want to replace something with an update, I can just upload it with the same name and One Drive will ask if I want to replace or keep both copies. If I choose replace, any link to the old copy will still work, but with the new one.


Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
[Edit, Part the Second] Ugh, I do wish Google Docs didn't always screw up pictures. :(

Here you go. ^_^

Awesome Marilith
Thanks, but I just downloaded it to get around Google.
Woot. Also, I recently found out I can do revisions with google drive, which is going to make updating some of my older projects waaaaaay more appealing. :)
I've recently switched to Microsoft One Drive because I don't have to change links and it doesn't degrade the quality like Google Drive does. In One Drive, if I want to replace something with an update, I can just upload it with the same name and One Drive will ask if I want to replace or keep both copies. If I choose replace, any link to the old copy will still work, but with the new one.

That's very close to what google drive does, I think. At least, that's how this works. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If you want to see what Mariliths REALLY used to be, go back to the 1E version.

In terms of flexibility and utility, it'll drop your jaw. It didn't have a few spell like powers. It had a freaking SPELL LIKE POWER LIST. 20+ SP.

==Aelryinth


Ashiel wrote:
Ashiel's Improved Marilith: Not Suck Edition.

The Kirthfinder marilith is even nastier -- but then again, 17th level characters are more or less demigods under those rules.

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