When is it Not OK to TPK?

[Matt2VK]

When is it NOT OK to TPK?

Example: Scenario just start and due to very good die rolls on the GM and poor rolls on the parties part, party is in a world of trouble.

A) Do you keep playing the scenario as written and let the dice fall as they will?

B) Make a change in the encounter that gives the party a chance to make it through the fight?

I always thought GM could use option (B) till I did this and got called on it by the coordinator. My reasoning was that I was making it a fun, enjoyable experience by giving the party a chance to survive. The coordinator's reasoning for option (A) was that the scenario had to be played as written. Bringing a consistent gaming environment to the tables playing the same scenario.

*Change - I mean something small but significant. Example: Shift alignment from CN to CE.

[Zach W.]

Sadly, you must run the scenario as written.

I have on some occasions though broke up full attacks to hit multiple people instead of the same person. There is really very little you can do, especially if a tactic makes the enemy want to murder the PS's.

Death happens. People need to realize this and either prepare for it in some capacity, or take it.

[Keht]

kill them all, let Pharasma sort out their souls. 99.99% of the time players are going to curb stomp a scenario and kill every mob within a round, 2 if they are weak PC's. It doesn't make me sad the .01% of the time they are actually in danger.

But to you question... no don't change anything, consider yourself lucky if the stars have aligned to create a challenge for the PC's

[Keht]

oh, and those times where they are close to death its usually their own fault because they do something silly like open a door in combat or split the party.

[Alex McGuire]

"when is it NOT okay to TPK a party?"

When the party hasn't done anything wrong.

[pauljathome]

Legally, mostly all you can do is softball things a little (and even then only within stated tactics)

Sometimes you can also turn the defeat into a non lethal loss. The bad guys knock them unconscious and humiliate them.

That said, many GMs feel absolutely no shame in cheating in some circumstances, especially to keep the characters of inexperienced players alive. Losing their character with 1 xp 10 minutes into the game doesn't lead to a fun experience likely to bring the player back.

[Matt2VK]

I did wrong then.

Party did nothing wrong. They all just had lousy dice rolls the first two rounds of combat and I, as the gm, could not roll anything less then a 15 on a D20.

So I tried using some GM adjudication for the extremely unlucky (players) and lucky (GM) dice rolling that's mentioned in PFS guide. I just went too far and didn't follow the 'Run as written...not allowed to change any of the mechanics of the scenario'.

I really did not want to deal a TPK because 5 people could not get a decent dice roll in the first 10 minutes of combat.

[Mark Stratton]

Ah, you changed the alignment of a creature, and doing say may have allowed PC abilities to suddenly work (say, Smite Evil.) Clearly, that's not okay.

GM fudging of a die roll here or there, however, isn't prohibited, but it's not advocated either. Use with caution.

[Sior]

If the dice do a TPK, that's okay.

If the GM does a TPK, not so much.

The dice are the random system we adhere to. The GM should not make it easier or harder just because he wants to see the players succeed.

Just because we may kill a character here and there does not mean we enjoy it. (Okay, sometimes we enjoy it.) That's just the game we play. I expect nothing different from a GM running a game I'm in.

[R D]

As was stated by someone else already, you can split attacks among PCs. This is one of my favorite tactics when things are going unreasonably badly for the party.

Also, I like use combat maneuvers instead of melee attacks. It's still aggressive and effective to trip a caster, for example. But it may keep them alive another round so they can get their dice / mojo going.

My $0.02

[TriOmegaZero]

I'm very good at spreading tactics around to bring PCs to the brink of defeat, giving them the maximum amount of time to rally and overcome the encounter. And yet even I can't keep the dice from killing them all the time.

You have to look at the printed tactics and figure out what leeway you have. You never have to CdG unless it is specifically mentioned. (Even then, players can do things with the AoOs to prevent it from going off.) You don't always have to focus fire (but it is a handy tactic when you have strong parties and think they need extra challenge) and can pick and choose your targets with each hit.

Remember to role-play the NPCs tactics as they are, not always as optimal as they can be. Smart enemies should fight smart, while stupid enemies should fight stupid. (That purple worm is going to charge the fighter, not go around him to the wizard just because the fighter has a huge AC.)

[nosig]

and if you drop the first guy to really-really dead (crit dead) and know it... hit him again "the monster just needs to be sure, you guys have been healing up and he wants to be sure you stay down."

Done right, it looks like you are a real HARD judge, done poorly, and everyone understands (wink-wink).

Or do the old "Evil Taunt" thing... and hope the PCs pull a critical out of thin air... (goblin king jumps up and instead of bashing someone says "HA! what ya gonna do now, huh!?" Slice open belly "well, yep, that about does it...")

[Grymore]

All great suggestions to slow the pace of blood-letting... thanks.

[BigNorseWolf]

Its always ok to leave at least one survivor to spread the word of your bloodthirstyness.

Usually the tactics are vague enough to interpret as either spread the damage out or whale on one person till they die. Either way once they go down i don't think i've ever seen a coup de grace written into the scenario.

[Finlanderboy]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its always ok to leave at least one survivor to spread the word of your bloodthirstyness.

Usually the tactics are vague enough to interpret as either spread the damage out or whale on one person till they die. Either way once they go down i don't think i've ever seen a coup de grace written into the scenario.

I know one:

Severing ties

[TriOmegaZero]

There is also:

Death Knell listed in the tactics in Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment.

[Matt2VK]

Actually when I did this there was no paladin in the party but it did allow a Protection from Evil to help the party out.

[Avatar-1]

If they're fighting humanoids, it can be fairly easy to add some roleplay element to give the party a chance. For example, they might start gloating that "this is too easy!" and do something else in the middle of a fight to show they can finish them at anytime.

This can't be done if they're fighting something mindless, like undead.

There's an in-between, for example if they're fighting animals. They have instinct, and might pace themselves, but ultimately, they probably want their dinner, or to protect themselves. If the PCs are really lucky, they might mean they put themselves in a better position, or retreat altogether (maybe with some of the loot).

[Finlanderboy]

I have twice had the bad guys defeat the PCs completely and then let them live.

City of strangers part 1:

They got locked in the cages, and swore feality(they were allowed to lie or fake it) to the shadow lodge and were allowed to leave.

First Steps 1:

They were looted of the item and a passerby brought them some place they could recover.

Characters that die while I am Dming are often from over kill. If I can find an excuse not to kill them I will not. I never TPKed a table yet.

[SCPRedMage]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have twice had the bad guys defeat the PCs completely and then let them live.

That's pretty much the closest I've ever come to a TPK, myself.

The God's Market Gamble:

The RNG gods decided to slap the party around in the final encounter, with me not being able to roll less than a natural 14 on my attacks, while they couldn't get above a 6. Somehow they all miraculously make their Con checks to stabilize on the first check (although one had to burn a Folio reroll to do so), and I end up coming to the conclusion that the BBEG would have simply taken the Sacred McGuffin of Cayden and skipped town.

Since it happened in the middle of the market square, they got medical attention before they would have needed to start making their per-hour Con checks, so they all survived to receive their 0 PP chronicles...

[David_Bross]

If I can come up with a reasonable reason as to why to stop a TPK, I will.

That said, most of the time in lethal combats there is little reason why the bad guys would stop.

In recent memory I was GMing a scenario and I had to choose the fate of the party. Here is what happened:

Thornkeep: Sanctum of a Lost Age:

The Necromancer asked them to go kill the rogue NPC to cause a paradox and end the time lock. The party discussed it in common, and the CN alchemist responded "Well, we would do it, but the Paladin has a problem with that, we'll go investigate…". Approximately 6 rounds later the entire party except the Paladin is under the effects of eyebite and the Paladin is dead. The Necromancer could have easily killed the panicked pathfinders, but decided to let them create the paradox, since not all of them had disobeyed his command. They actually did do so (murdering him essentially, gaining evil alignments and requiring atonements), but all lived.

A while ago I was GMing a different scenario, and the tactics, combined with the mental state of the BBEG, allowed me some wiggle room.

In Wrath's Shadow:

Tholrist is insane. He had lost all of his ghouls to the party, and due to poor fortitude saves by the party, he'd managed to paralyze most of the party. Following his tactics, I had 5' stepped multiple times to attack a target and stopped his attack sequence after one attack when they were paralyzed, with a very literal reading of (Tholrist ignores any creatures he successfully paralyzes until the battle is over.). This meant giving up quite a few attacks after the first hit, but I decided he wanted new companions, and knew if he outright killed them before he had the chance to infect them, then he would be lonely again. This combined with a heroic effort from a life oracle led to only one death (the life oracle) and the rest of the party managing to escape.

In other examples TPKs have occurred.

Waking Rune:

Krune would not have stopped once initiative was rolled, he was going to finish them for their insolence. In my case the PCs got a 1 round blind off on Krune after dispelling his cloudkill. He dimensional stepped away and once this occurred, the scenario became much much worse, He was only at 1/2 health but started to summon an army and when the party saw him next time he had multiple creatures, and he pressed his advantage.

Haunting of Hinojai:

Dagagal threw in his lot with Minasako decades ago, and has no interest in letting the PCs live. If the party in the 8-9 subtier doesn't have the ability to deal with an invisible flying evoker who is virtually guaranteed a surprise round with major image, then things are going to go very poorly for them. In my case a few poor saves was all it took. The fact the party was running away from the mists trap really didn't help, as they were split, damaged, and in very deadly straights. Note that this wasn't a TPK because one PC managed to use invisibility to escape, he also recovered the bodies while Dagagal was searching for him.

[Stemboy]

I had a TPK at the weekend running Crypt of the Everflame. While it wasn't my first PC kill in PFS, it was my first TPK. Sadly it was a result of the party being a poor composition for the adventure at hand. They accepted it, I accepted it and we all still had a good time.

[Pyrantis]

I can confirm that the players of Crypt of the Everflame mentioned above had fun despite the TPK. My opinion is that while the GM should never feel like he is playing to defeat the players, the enemies should feel like they are trying to defeat the characters.

A GM that tries too hard to avoid TPK (or player deaths) makes the game less fun, though obviously the same is true for one that tries too hard to cause one.

[Serum]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have twice had the bad guys defeat the PCs completely and then let them live.

That's pretty much the closest I've ever come to a TPK, myself.

** spoiler omitted **

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:

Spoiler:

This is actually one situation where I would have the BBEG kill everyone after they fall unconscious. If she was just going to skip town with the goods, then she would have done it already. Instead, she's set up this ambush specifically so she can kill everyone who could provide evidence against her. She's not going to let them live after she has won, especially since it takes almost no time at all to fill them with arrows from afar.

[Mistwalker]

Serum wrote:

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Serum wrote:

This is actually one situation where I would have the BBEG kill everyone after they fall unconscious. If she was just going to skip town with the goods, then she would have done it already. Instead, she's set up this ambush specifically so she can kill everyone who could provide evidence against her. She's not going to let them live after she has won, especially since it takes almost no time at all to fill them with arrows from afar.

She only has 20 arrows, so it doesn't take long for her to run out, especially in the higher tier. When I ran it, she did use up all of her arrows, and had to come down to finish it.

[Serum]

Mistwalker wrote:

Serum wrote:

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

True, and I believe that's what happened when I ran it as well. The guards take minutes to show up even after the PCs win. After the last PC went down, I decided that I would roll the d4, and if it showed a 1, the guards would show up while she was trying to finish them off and have to run away. It wasn't a 1.

[David Bowles]

Trying to cause TPKs violates the "don't be a jerk" clause to me. However, too many kid gloves takes away all sense of accomplishment and danger.

[Tiaburn]

I can contribute to this thread as well. We've been playing Dalsine Affair and players been overcautious before the last scene, so it all went the other way around.

Spoiler:

They've sent one player in disguise to find Dalsine mention. When he came there, he found out that someone's cart is inside and there are dogs and guards.
Than party bought some disguise self scrolls, found out a leaking b$&$* to distract dogs, prepared some meat with poison to knock dogs uncontious, purchased similar sets of armour & weapons and went there during the night, with idea to search a house, while there is a party there.

They came to main door, heard some voices and then sneaked around to find a back entrance. I need to invent a scheme of the mansion, because they could not enter the main hall again. Finally, part of party - they split on the way - came into main hall from upstairs to see a fight. While that, they where trying to find rooms and cabinets to sneak in. When they found that need to go downstairs, and witch was trying to sleep both illusion & fighting buddies. Finally, one of fighters is down, the other one makes a speech and leaves via teleport and the illusion is still laughing.
They decide to go downstairs, while invisible Dalsine is going up. So they meet in front of staircase - and he crits from invis on fighter, does ridiculous damage (bringing him into -13), than turns to paladin and throws some insults. Paladin declares full-defence and grabs fighter body, provokes AoO, grabs crit, ridiculous damage (bringing him into -10). Witch grabs paladin & fighter and jump out of the window. Cleric & Ranger are near the Dalsine and he rolls hit again bringing both to 1 or 2 hp. Barely alive they try to run out, throwing alchemic fires around mansion, just to save some time.
I decided that creativity need to be rewarded, thats why they got out of there alive and got 0XP, 0gold and 1PP (for recovering sister's body).

There are lot's of my mistakes as DM, but I'm doing this as home games in group of friends, so they are not so keen on PFS specifics. At least, they've been saved from themselves and got nice explanation, why mission is failed.

[WalterGM]

The best advice on this I can offer is be in character with your NPCs.

Unintelligent creatures might forfeit those extra attacks to beat their chest in triumphant fury, or hiss at the rest of the party, or anything else you can come up with. Even constructs might stop beating a broken corpse after you give your best HAL impersonation of "target neutralized."

Intelligent NPCs are easier when it comes to this. Taking a life is something that's often trivialized in these sorts of games, but there are certainly intelligent NPCs out there that are going to have reservations when it comes to hitting someone when they're down. Defending yourself is one thing, stabbing someone who's already bleeding out is another all together.

Think about what your NPCs would do, and how your party would react to a kill or TPK, and let that guide your hand. Experience is the best teacher here, and the more you GM the more chances you'll have to make those decisions and figure out where to draw the line.

Personal Side Note:

This is one thing I'm enjoying about our current "Wrath of the Righteous not PFS legal AP." Lately, and my players can vouch for this, my dice in this game have been hot—back to back to back 20s, critting with a x3 weapon when someone is using Diehard—just plain rude. Normally, I'd be feeling bad about all this. But since it's homebrew I can do whatever I want (bring people back from the dead willy nilly, etc), so it's been a blast.

The line of dead character sheets tacked to the wall in our FLGS keeps getting longer, and all my players can do is pray my dice come up anything other than another friggin nat 20. I've also gotten to explore the true malevolence of GMing dozens of different demonic foes. My favorite kill was when I dropped the halfling bard unconscious with a pair of babaus, then picked him up and greater teleported into a vat of molten steel. Easily the best true-death I've given a PC so far.

I can't wait for them to get deeper into Book 3, oh the horrors!

[Silbeg]

Serum wrote:

Mistwalker wrote:

Serum wrote:

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

GMG:

I have had two almost TPKs on this one.

On the first one character ran away, though he was staggered by her final shot. I ruled that she rifled pockets for the evidence against her, and fled.

Case two, the PCs had downed her bird, and one picked it up, and promised to heal it if shoe left them alone (allowing his brother, in character, to die). I allowed this to work, especially when the character actually just healed the bird as a sign of good faith (with a CMW potion, I believe, not one of the tasty peppermint CLWs on sale). They dropped the evidence as well, so that she could take it and go.

Third time I ran it, they got lucky!

[Peet]

If the bad guys are winning and you want to slow them down to give the player a chance to catch up, here are some options:

Bad guy uses intimidate to try to demoralize one of the characters.
Bad guy feints against one of the characters.
Bad guy attempts sub-optimal combat maneuver.
Bad guy changes targets and moves to engage someone else.
Bad guy tries to move through character's space with acrobatics.
Bad guy tries to cast a spell without casting defensively.
Bad guy spends action searching fallen character's body for money.
Bad guy throws improvised weapons at a character.

Most of these tactics won't work well unless the enemy is optimized for it, but even though they are not optimized for it this doesn't mean they cant try these things. Many of these will provoke attacks of opportunity that the players will be able to exploit.

Peet

[SCPRedMage]

Serum wrote:

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

It was a public market square, with plenty of witnesses, and she fired the first shot. Even if she managed to outright kill the entire party, there's no way she could have hidden that fact, so her best bet was to skip town.

Also, I believe Mike Brock's guidance on the use of Coup de Grace was "only if the tactics say so"...

[Rambone]

Several times I have seen fellow Pathfinders deliver Coup de Grace on helpless opponents, in that case I am perfectly willing for the 'bad guys' to return the favor if circumstances are reversed.

[David_Bross]

Rambone wrote:

Several times I have seen fellow Pathfinders deliver Coup de Grace on helpless opponents, in that case I am perfectly willing for the 'bad guys' to return the favor if circumstances are reversed.

This can not be done per the don't be a jerk rule. Unless written into tactics, you never use a CDG while there are active combatants.

That said, afterwords, it hardly matters.

[David Bowles]

Forget CDG. 80% of PC deaths I've seen are from crits.

[Serum]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Serum wrote:

Regarding Gods' Market Gamble:** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

/shrug. She's in a position with cover and a cloak. It's unlikely the witnesses ever see anything except for said cloak.

Anyway, this has all been covered in the Gods' Market Gamble GM thread. I was just pointing out that if a BBEG's entire motivation for being in a fight with the PCs is to kill the PCs, it's probably not in character for him not to kill the PCs.

Frostfur Captives:

Consider the final encounter for this scenario, where their enemies specifically don't care whether the PCs live or die, as long as the goblins die.

[Cao Phen]

This happened to me once as a GM:

Player - "You really want to kill us all"
Me - "No, I don't want to kill you all"

First roll, Natural 20.

Player - "SEE! You want to kill us all!"
Me - "No, I don't..."

Proceed to roll high the rest of the night.
Players fear me now whenever I GM.

...and I really don't want to kill them...=(

[EricMcG]

Level 3 or below, fudge the tactics, move into flanks, spread the damage around, maybe fight defensively. This is particularly useful with inexperienced players, they get to learn what not to do and still survive to talk about it.

Level 4+ they have enough Prestige to Raise themselves. Don't hold back. Soft balling them at this stage will just get them into bad habits.

The exceptions are PaliBarbs, Summoners, Gunslingers and Magus. Kill them early and often.

[Rambone]

David_Bross wrote:

Rambone wrote:

Several times I have seen fellow Pathfinders deliver Coup de Grace on helpless opponents, in that case I am perfectly willing for the 'bad guys' to return the favor if circumstances are reversed.

This can not be done per the don't be a jerk rule. Unless written into tactics, you never use a CDG while there are active combatants.

That said, afterwords, it hardly matters.

Seriously, someone is going to run after a VC wanting his PC death be overturned because his 'DM was being a jerk'? Even if the PC 'was being a jerk'?

[David Bowles]

EricMcG wrote:

Level 3 or below, fudge the tactics, move into flanks, spread the damage around, maybe fight defensively. This is particularly useful with inexperienced players, they get to learn what not to do and still survive to talk about it.

Level 4+ they have enough Prestige to Raise themselves. Don't hold back. Soft balling them at this stage will just get them into bad habits.

The exceptions are PaliBarbs, Summoners, Gunslingers and Magus. Kill them early and often.

You forgot druids. Druids are worst. Certainly worse than summoners.

[Kurthnaga]

Cao Phen wrote:

This happened to me once as a GM:

Player - "You really want to kill us all"
Me - "No, I don't want to kill you all"

First roll, Natural 20.

Player - "SEE! You want to kill us all!"
Me - "No, I don't..."

Proceed to roll high the rest of the night.
Players fear me now whenever I GM.

...and I really don't want to kill them...=(

As I hear this from your table, I'm going 5...5...5...oh hey look an 8. The contrast is ridiculous.

On topic, I am in agreement with Walter, kill as your NPC sees fit.

Weird not TPK in Fortress of the Nail:

So the party beats the dog master/traitor playing low tier, and leaves him alive. They then call down some Hell Knights to guard him and do as they see fit. I have them make a check for a favor from an indifferent standpoint, they make it. The Hellknights stay. They go into the portal, find the low tier doggyand iniatiate combat. One character down and one staggered after the breath weapon, 4 round recharge. The next breath weapon much later kills one PC, another bled out from a bite. Four unconscious, the warhound figures they aren't threats, and looks for its master first. Runs face first into two Hellknights at 12 hp, I decide to reward the PCs for a scenario that rarely happens and the Hellknights easily finish the beast. The PCs eventually recover and return home with Zarta. Interesting way to end it imo. Very few PCs I've seen give the Hellknights much thought after the diplomacy sections. Still I suppose that would have been my first TPK. It will come in time.

[SCPRedMage]

Rambone wrote:

Seriously, someone is going to run after a VC wanting his PC death be overturned because his 'DM was being a jerk'? Even if the PC 'was being a jerk'?

A PC Coup de Gracing an NPC is NOT equivalent to an NPC Coup de Gracing a PC, as the GM has more NPCs to use after one dies, hasn't put in months of game time advancing said character, and the game doesn't inherently revolve around said character's adventures. A PC using Coup de Grace is NOT violating the "don't be a jerk rule", while a GM using it on PCs might be.

Furthermore, Mike Brock has been quite clear on the matter: if the scenario does not explicitly include Coup de Grace in the tactics, it is NOT something a GM is supposed to use.

[Luthril]

Kurthnaga wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

This happened to me once as a GM:

Player - "You really want to kill us all"
Me - "No, I don't want to kill you all"

First roll, Natural 20.

Player - "SEE! You want to kill us all!"
Me - "No, I don't..."

Proceed to roll high the rest of the night.
Players fear me now whenever I GM.

...and I really don't want to kill them...=(

As I hear this from your table, I'm going 5...5...5...oh hey look an 8. The contrast is ridiculous.

On topic, I am in agreement with Walter, kill as your NPC sees fit.

** spoiler omitted **

Excellent work, good GMing. Your players are lucky to have you.

Nail:

When I ran this it took dragging a PC Hellknight that was 2HP away from Neg Con through and leaving the Beasty to fight another day. We didn't stand a chance in the high tier and only through creative use of Dim Door and Full Defense did we get her out and drag our almost dead tank with us

[PeteZero]

Not OK if you have kids at your table. I would not even kill a child's PC. Had it actually happen in LG - they faced a cockatrice - give me save - a 1, sorry, did not see your roll, roll again - another 1. I think I just gave him another re-roll.

[nosig]

PeteZero wrote:

Not OK if you have kids at your table. I would not even kill a child's PC. Had it actually happen in LG - they faced a cockatrice - give me save - a 1, sorry, did not see your roll, roll again - another 1. I think I just gave him another re-roll.

I play with kids at the table all the time... (if they get toasted with a 1 save) mostly they take it (bad rolls) better than some adults I've had at the table.

[FLite]

I think it depends on the kid.

I spent one entire combat with my 5th level bard following a 9(?) year old's 1st level frontline fighter around the battle field hitting him with cure lights and soaking AoO away from him, because he insisted on charging into the the heart of a subtier 3-4 battle...

[nosig]

FLite wrote:

I think it depends on the kid.

I spent one entire combat with my 5th level bard following a 9(?) year old's 1st level frontline fighter around the battle field hitting him with cure lights and soaking AoO away from him, because he insisted on charging into the the heart of a subtier 3-4 battle...

yep... though I would say "it depends on the person"... some of the "kids" I have played with in the past happen to be in 40+ bodies... (must be a magic jar spell involved or something)

[FLite]

meh, if they are over thirteen, I treat it as a learning experience.

Got to grow up sometime.

[kinevon]

PeteZero wrote:

Not OK if you have kids at your table. I would not even kill a child's PC. Had it actually happen in LG - they faced a cockatrice - give me save - a 1, sorry, did not see your roll, roll again - another 1. I think I just gave him another re-roll.

Sorry, sometimes, no matter what you do, you have to kill that PC.

Indeed, due to circumstances, in recent memory, I have had to, as GM, kill one of our younger player's PC. Two different ones. And the second time was a TPK for the party.

First time was me misjudging how bad the sub-tier 1-2 encounter was in a 1-7 tier scenario, although there were bad tactics and low rolls involved from the PC side.

The second time boiled down to really bad tactics on the PC side. Never, ever, ever, go into a 5' wide passageway when you are sub-tier 1-2, when the creature you are facing gets multiple attacks as a full attack. 1 PC attack per round vs 3 creature attacks per round means bad things for the PCs.

Spoiler:

Especially since the creature also included a paralysis effect on all three attacks. It was just ugly.

[Qstor]

PeteZero wrote:

Not OK if you have kids at your table. I would not even kill a child's PC. Had it actually happen in LG - they faced a cockatrice - give me save - a 1, sorry, did not see your roll, roll again - another 1. I think I just gave him another re-roll.

I say run the module as written but give the kids a break. Maybe a bad guy steps back for a second allowing one of the characters to drink a healing potion or something.

Mike