Do these two abilities, particularly the last line of knowledge pool, allow my magus to spend e pool points on fly (a spell he does not normally prepare), prepare a bunch of other spells (that aren't fly), and then spend 3 more pool points during the day to be able to cast fly even though it was never prepared in the first place?
What you're asking is if a Magus can use Knowledge Pool to prepare Fly (a spell he does not know) and then use Spell Recall to recall Fly when he casts it? If so, yes.
If what you're asking is if you can use Knowledge Pool to add Fly to his spellbook, but does not prepare it, and then use Spell Recall to recall Fly...then no. It specifically says PREPARED and CAST.
If you did no PREPARE Fly (and subsequently cast it) you can't recall Fly.
Knowledge Pool doesn't overcome that restriction. It's just clarifying that you indeed know the spell for the day, and can prepare it as normal, and it counts as a normally prepared spell until you prepare again.
Essentially, Knowledge Pool adds Fly to your spellbook for the day, and it works exactly as if you had learned Fly from a spellbook, scroll, or freebie spell every level.
The rest of it is just explicitly stating that yes, it does in fact work as a normally prepared spell for the purposes of Spell Recall (which probably could have been phrased better as "These spells are treated as normally prepared spells for all effects that relate to prepared spells", but I still think it's pretty clear).
What exactly is the purpose of the last line of knowledge pool then?
What exactly is the purpose of the last line of knowledge pool then?
Let's say you have a spell on your spellist, but not in your spellbook. Knowledge pool allows you to pretend the spell is in your spellbook and prepare it anyway because otherwise you could not prepare it.
The last line is saying that whatever spell you select to use this ability on only counts until you prepare your spells again.
Example:
Let say fireball is on the magus spelllist, but not in a spellbook. <--I don't know if fireball is on the list or not. I am just using an example.
You can spend one point to select fireball so it can be prepared as if it was in your spellbook.
However you only have access to fireball in this manner until you prepare your daily spells again.
edit:clarification.
Ah, so it's there to clarify that the change isn't permanent then?
Ah, so it's there to clarify that the change isn't permanent then?
Yes. Without that line you would have permanent access to those spells without having to actually add them to your spellbook.
Except, if you bother to scribe them into your spellbook while you have access to them in your memory, said line becomes somewhat moot (especially if you have a blessed book, which will eventually allow you to scribe all the magus spells you can cast for free).
For a moment I thought it was trying to say you could use spell recall on a spell begotten by knowledge pool, which is readily understood even without that line.
Your reading of it makes much more sense. Thanks.
I thought about the scribe thing also, but I think by RAW you have to copy them from another spellbook or scroll.<--Yes, I am aware this is nitpicking, but I could see a GM saying "that is not the intent", and using RAW to shut it down.
However you could make a scroll of the spell, and then copy that spell into your book if you are far away from any city<-----I don't think that is the intent, but it would be allowed by RAW, unless I am missing something.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The RAW seems pretty clear:
A GM refusing to allow it is changing the rules.
The RAW seems pretty clear:
A GM refusing to allow it is changing the rules.
I did not know that rule, but is the "same(book the magus is pretending the spell is in)" spellbook a "new" spellbook?
Personally rather get into pedantic arguments of RAW with the GM he(the GM) should just say up front he does not like it, IF it is a problem.
PS: I am well aware no spellbook actually counts for the spell(from knowledge pool) the book is in. I am just entertaining the problems of a GM not like he idea, and I am bored.
PS2: I think your groups play by RAW so your GM will just have to deal with it.
Yep.
I distinctly recall game developers discussing the issue on the forums during the magus playtest, saying that it may well be a feature of the magus (they seemed undecided at the time). Seeing as it was not changed, it looks like it did indeed become a magus class feature intended to work that way.
The RAW seems pretty clear:
A GM refusing to allow it is changing the rules.
I did not know that rule, but is the "same(book the magus is pretending the spell is in)" spellbook a "new" spellbook?
So have two spellbooks?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yep.
I distinctly recall game developers discussing the issue on the forums during the magus playtest, saying that it may well be a feature of the magus (they seemed undecided at the time). Seeing as it was not changed, it looks like it did indeed become a magus class feature intended to work that way.
You believe the intent is that a magus upon reaching 7th level gets to acquire all future magus spells for free (given sufficient downtime)?
This is for 3rd level spells 41 * 90 = 3690 - 15% of WBL.
4th level spells 30 * 160 = 4800 + previous 3rd level spells = 8490 - 13% of WBL.
5th level spells 24 * 250 = 6000 + prev 3rd/4th = 14490 - 10% of WBL
6th level spells 24 * 360 = 8640 + prev 3rd/4th/5th = 23130 - 7% of WBL
And growing as new spells are added to the game.
While it becomes less significant as the player levels, trust me this is not RAI, even though the RAW allows it. :)
So have two spellbooks?The RAW seems pretty clear:
A GM refusing to allow it is changing the rules.
I did not know that rule, but is the "same(book the magus is pretending the spell is in)" spellbook a "new" spellbook?
I am not advocating a GM use that nonsense(My RAW counter) to shut a player down. I think the mature thing to do is say, "it works by RAW, and it is even rules legal, but houserule it out, if the GM does not like it.
You believe the intent is that a magus upon reaching 7th level gets to acquire all future magus spells for free (given sufficient downtime)?
I believe that it is a distinct possibility, one strongly supported by the fact that the developers openly considered making it a feature of the class during the playtest, and then did nothing to change the text when they put it into print.
I believe that it is a distinct possibility, one strongly supported by the fact that the developers openly considered making it a feature of the class during the playtest, and then did nothing to change the text when they put it into print.
I wouldn't consider it strongly supported so much as a "it's a minor detail that got overlooked/forgotten about" among the thousands of details they were working with when putting together UM. The precedent of all arcane prepared casters is that if you want more versatility you pay for it with cash to add the spells (or alchemist formula). I'd expect the rules to explicitly call out such a change in precedent to show such an intent.
They still have to pay the normal cost for scribing, they just don't have to pay the extra cost to borrow someone else's books, or find someone else who knows them.
Mythic also lets you learn arbitrary spells; take archmage, take wild arcana, use mythic power to cast a spell, scribe a scroll, which requires that you be able to cast the spell to do it. Then you have a scroll and can add it to your spellbook.
It is not so much the money, but that you can learn a lot of spells every day that way, assuming it only takes an hour to scribe one spell into the book. If you can only learn one spell a day then it is not as bad as I thought, but still not something every GM will allow.
I look at it as something they forgot about or something they left in the hands of GM's to decide.
They still have to pay the normal cost for scribing, they just don't have to pay the extra cost to borrow someone else's books, or find someone else who knows them.
Mythic also lets you learn arbitrary spells; take archmage, take wild arcana, use mythic power to cast a spell, scribe a scroll, which requires that you be able to cast the spell to do it. Then you have a scroll and can add it to your spellbook.
Hmm, yes, I calculated that out wrong. The scribing costs are there regardless. I should have calculated the cost to buy each of those spells off a scroll or pay another casters for loaning their spell book - which puts the 'free' costs much higher. Doing that puts the WBL at around 30%.
Hmm, yes, I calculated that out wrong. The scribing costs are there regardless. I should have calculated the cost to buy each of those spells off a scroll or pay another casters for loaning their spell book - which puts the 'free' costs much higher. Doing that puts the WBL at around 30%.
Well, it depends on which method you are basing it off of.
Borrowing a spellbook is half the price of scribing the spell. So it would be half of the numbers you had before. So only a 7.5 to 3.5 percent increase in WBL.
Borrowing a spellbook is half the price of scribing the spell.
Where is this stated in the rules? Not doubting you, I just don't ever recall seeing that. The only thing I'm aware of is selling a spellbook you acquired elsewhere which is:
Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
Which includes both the scribing and scroll costs. And wouldn't necessarily be the cost another spell caster would rent their book out at. I'd expect them to rent it out at the same price they'd sell scrolls of each spell for. (e.g, full cost minus scribing costs, but the new caster is going to still pay those scribing costs).
|
It is not so much the money, but that you can learn a lot of spells every day that way, assuming it only takes an hour to scribe one spell into the book. If you can only learn one spell a day then it is not as bad as I thought, but still not something every GM will allow.They still have to pay the normal cost for scribing, they just don't have to pay the extra cost to borrow someone else's books, or find someone else who knows them.
Mythic also lets you learn arbitrary spells; take archmage, take wild arcana, use mythic power to cast a spell, scribe a scroll, which requires that you be able to cast the spell to do it. Then you have a scroll and can add it to your spellbook.
(one hour per spell level to write)
Where is this stated in the rules?
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
The text is on page 219 of the Core rulebook.
Happy to help.
Where is this stated in the rules?In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
The text is on page 219 of the Core rulebook.
Happy to help.
Thanks, there it was 2 paragraphs above where I was reading.
(Wonders if that should include the original scroll cost, as economically it doesn't make sense for a wizard who is a stranger to random PC #3 to say, well it cost me 2000gp to get this spell in my spellbook, and I could make a scroll to sell you for 1600gp, but I'll let you copy straight from my book for a mere 180gp - unless of course the selling wizard expects to get so much volume on renting their spellbook out to make up for that while still having their time free to not spend all their days crafting scrolls).
|
|
Where is this stated in the rules?In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
The text is on page 219 of the Core rulebook.
Happy to help.
Thanks, there it was 2 paragraphs above where I was reading.
(Wonders if that should include the original scroll cost, as economically it doesn't make sense for a wizard who is a stranger to random PC #3 to say, well it cost me 2000gp to get this spell in my spellbook, and I could make a scroll to sell you for 1600gp, but I'll let you copy straight from my book for a mere 180gp - unless of course the selling wizard expects to get so much volume on renting their spellbook out to make up for that while still having their time free to not spend all their days crafting scrolls).
It takes zero effort on the lender to lend his spellbook. If he's busy with other things, it might be more economical to just lend out the spell book as opposed to spending the time to write a scroll.
So, lets look a little more closely at those numbers.
A Wizard NPC buys a 6th level scroll for 1650 gp and scribes it for 360 gp (2010 gp total).
He can....
a) rent out the spell for 180 gp, which costs the Wizard nothing and takes none of his time (1 hour max to assist in deciphering the spell book)
b) scribe a scroll, spending 825 gp for materials, taking 2 days, and expending a spell slot. He gets 1650 gp for the scroll, making a profit of 825 gp.
BUT, the expended spell slot from crafting is also valued, at 660 gp if he can sell that service. If we subtract this opportunity cost from the scroll profit, it is down to 165 gp. If we consider he could have sold the spell slot once each on both crafting days, he is losing money compared to selling his services.
So, renting out the spell book for 180 gp, and spending his time selling his casting services is more cost efficient for the Wizard than taking time to create a scroll.
And all that assumes you are borrowing the spellbook of someone with the Scribe Scroll feat. Yes, wizards get it as a bonus feat, but some trade it away with archetypes, or maybe you are copying a magus or Arcanist spellbook.