Is Regeneration immunity to death effects?


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Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Regeneration.

Does the "Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning" portion of this feat mean that trolls and other creatures with regeneration are immune to effects like a death knell spell? It states that attack forms that don't deal hit point damage aren't healed by regeneration, but I assumed that to be referring to other types of damage, like ability damage. Death knell doesn't deal hit point damage, but it's unclear as to whether this means it bypasses the "cannot die" verbage.


This has been argued a lot. Here and Here.

Some people seem to think that if Regeneration can't heal something, it doesn't keep you from death.

Others, myself included, think that even if Regeneration can't heal something, you still won't die.

However, I wouldn't say it is "immunity to death effects."

Here's why.

Circle of Death is a death effect, save or die. It does nothing else, if you pass your save nothing happens. So, if you "cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning" this spell does nothing on a failed save.

But Finger of Death is also a death effect. It does damage, Fort save partial. Regeneration would not prevent you from taking damage, only prevent that damage from killing you.

Immunity to Death effects would mean you wouldn't take any damage from Finger of Death, as the spell is a death effect.

So "cannot die" not "immune to death effects."


Good catch. Yes, it just means you don't die, I think.


And i will throw in some opposition that it says it cannot die while regeneration is active from being damage by hit point damage since thats basically the full sentence. So if u deal hit point damage it will not die unless u turn regeneration off.
other forms of damage that is not hit point damage is not healed by regeneration and u kill a troll by killing it without dealing hit point damage.

Both views, ones who say cannot die whatsoever and ones who says cannot die from being damage with hit point damage but can die from other means atm either side could be right until we get a faq to clear things up.

So take ur pick and go with what u want because theres no clear answer atm.

I do agree though that the "cannot die" does not mean "immune to death effects".

Dark Archive

How I would handle it is if a creature with regeneration failed a save on a Death effect, they would be brought to the verge of death and unconscious, but not dead. This makes death effects a viable option still, but allows for regeneration to hold its weight as well.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

What about save or die effects like the one from the Deadly Finish feat? I assume that would probably fall into the same area? It's triggered by having done no damage, but the effect itself is not a hit point damaging effect.


It's a catch 22:

If you regenerate, you cannot die.
If you die, you can't regenerate.

How can you die if you regenerate?

Plenty of ways, the most obvious are typically fire/acid attacks which shutdown regeneration for one round, but some are ambiguous.

IMO, if something can be healed by normal healing, then regeneration works, otherwise is a power/effect/condition says it can be healed normally or says you die, then suck it up you don't regenerate and are *dead*.

Some people are treating regeneration as a far more powerful ability than it should be. A troll is merely a CR5, not a CR-TPK unless you have a pack of matches.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:

Regeneration.

Does the "Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning" portion of this feat mean that trolls and other creatures with regeneration are immune to effects like a death knell spell? It states that attack forms that don't deal hit point damage aren't healed by regeneration, but I assumed that to be referring to other types of damage, like ability damage. Death knell doesn't deal hit point damage, but it's unclear as to whether this means it bypasses the "cannot die" verbage.

It's extremely clear. Regeneration ONLY addresses hit point damage. Hit point damage ain't the only way to die. Regeneration will do absolutely nothing against things that kill you without inflicting hit point damage. Regeneration stops at that point, which means unless you're a Time Lord, you're not coming back.


Right. You can die from many things, one of them being a failed Fort save after a CdG. But simple HP damage won;t kill you.


Regardless of which camp you fall in, we all agree this is a poorly written ability just cause that line. I FAQd for the day the PDT starts answering them again.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darth Grall wrote:
Regardless of which camp you fall in, we all agree this is a poorly written ability just cause that line. I FAQd for the day the PDT starts answering them again.

I don't "agree" about anything. This has been a molehill about a mountain that I've never had to deal with.


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LazarX wrote:


It's extremely clear. Regeneration ONLY addresses hit point damage. Hit point damage ain't the only way to die. Regeneration will do absolutely nothing against things that kill you without inflicting hit point damage. Regeneration stops at that point, which means unless you're a Time Lord, you're not coming back.

It's not extremely clear, or there wouldn't be any dispute.

I regard "you cannot die unless..." as being pretty straightforward. Is your regeneration suppressed? No? You're not dead. You can't be, because you cannot die unless your regeneration is suppressed.

The statement that regeneration doesn't heal other forms of damage (such as ability damage) doesn't change that. There's a world of difference between "doesn't heal X" and "does absolutely nothing against X".


LazarX wrote:


It's extremely clear. Regeneration ONLY heals hit point damage.

Fixed that for you.

It doesn't address death from non-hp sources. It says it heals hp, and only hp. It says you can't die while regeneration is active.

But no where does it say "you can't die" is limited to death from hp damage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
This has been a molehill about a mountain that I've never had to deal with.

I wish I was that lucky! I ran Jade Regent and the party ninja had scrolls of Giant Form that he would activate (and was wildly effective in doing so) with Use Magic Device to gain the form of a troll and that kept him alive in all types of situations as it says "Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)."

So, I normally do not go in for these wild ideas and seemingly abuses of what a rule is meant to say but there is enough grey area here that this one would be nice to have have an answer for in the FAQ.

If I have regeneration, am I "killed" by a non-hit point effect such as Phantasmal Killer, etc.? Or do I just go to negative Constitution or is there just no effect?

It seems like spells like Finger of Death and Disintegrate that do a certain amount of hit point damage and you only die if that exceeds your hit point total should fall under the protection of Regeneration and the target would not die unless the regeneration over coming effect (fire, acid) was also brought into play at that time.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

I'm glad to see that there is some dispute on this one and that it isn't just me :P

My home and PFS groups are both split right down the middle in their opinions on this one, with questions like
"How is being able to regrow a limb going to help if I rip out your life force?"

being met with

"My body performs automatic CPR even if your effect should kill me, so it doesn't work".

The more I look at it, the more it seems like the "cannot die" and "only heals hp damage" clauses are completely separate from each other, but it'd be good to know the official answer. I went ahead and FAQ'd as well since it seems like there really is some debate.

One thing that I noticed, the Tarrasque's version of Regeneration has this clause in it "it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect", which seems like they're indicating normal regeneration would not work under those conditions.


Guys, I hope you all like the new $500 and 50# CRB you're asking for.

Honestly, do you really want Paizo to write every line as a paragraph and every rule takes up several pages? Use some common sense. In PF, RAI trumps RAW. Don't parse rules like they are lines of legal boilerplate.

The Exchange

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Yeah, in prior editions it was pretty bulletproof; regenerating creatures could die of death effects. Are we sure there's not a line we're missing under the Regeneration or Death Effect rules?

After all, by this logic, somebody who is killed by a spectre's energy drain "cannot die" (and will presumably be fine once 24 hours rolls by and a few of those negative levels fade), but in the meantime the creature's soul has already risen as a new spectre. (Insert your own joke about professions where having no soul would be a benefit.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DrDeth wrote:

Guys, I hope you all like the new $500 and 50# CRB you're asking for.

Honestly, do you really want Paizo to write every line as a paragraph and every rule takes up several pages? Use some common sense. In PF, RAI trumps RAW. Don't parse rules like they are lines of legal boilerplate.

Really, in the day and age of electronic FAQ and such it will require a 50lb rulebook that costs $500? I think that is a little bit of a hyperbolic stretch.

I do not think that this is over the top at all. If you want over the top, look at the threads about swapping out wizard spell slots for spontaneous healing like a cleric, but I digress...

Here is what Regeneration looked like in 3.5:

"Regeneration
Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability."

Here is what it looks like in Pathfinder:

"Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp."

There are major differences!

The biggest is the change from lethal to nonlethal damage in 3.5 versus just not being able to die in Pathfinder. In Pathfinder the wording was changed enough to substantially change the ability.

Again, you tell folks to use their brains and I agree with you that we seem to lack that often on these messageboards. I do NOT need Paizo to tell me what it means to "wield a weapon." As a DM and a player I think I can work through that one. I would like them to be clear on an ability that they have listed, especially when it will only take a few lines of text that do not amount to 50lbs of $500 even if all of the FAQ would be incorporated.

In short if you think a thread is silly, then do what I do, ignore it. If you post just to say that everyone on the thread is being silly, then it really does not help anyone.


This isn't asking for a huuuuuge wall of clarifications.

"cannot die from hit point damage" would resolve this. So would "cannot die by any means". Three or four words, in one place, would completely answer the question.


Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.' Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

The bold part seems pretty cut and clear to me. Regen cant save you from old age, starving, thirst, etc. by RAW this seems like a limited Immortality, but really.. if it doesnt deal hit point damage.. it seems there isn't much regen can really do for you.


seebs wrote:

This isn't asking for a huuuuuge wall of clarifications.

"cannot die from hit point damage" would resolve this. So would "cannot die by any means". Three or four words, in one place, would completely answer the question.

Yes, another one line- for every stinking rule in the CRB. And even that one one wouldn't solve everything.

Sczarni

"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."

So IF you hit someone with a DEATH AFFECT, and it succeeds, not only do they suffer the DEATH EFFECT (they die, sorry, Regeneration only prevents death from HP LOSS) - when they DIE, they lose Regeneration. Thus they are DEAD.

If they starve to death; THEY DIE. If they suffocate; THEY DIE. Regeneration goes with them... they are DEAD. Nowhere does it say "they are miraculously raised from the dead when someone feeds their dead corpse" or "start breathing again when they take their head out of the bucket of water". Nope. They are DEAD.

"Dead - When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead." So if Regen doesn't heal DEATH AFFECTS, STAT LOSS, STARVATION, OR SUFFOCATION damage, and it is enough to kill the person... they are D.E.A.D. Dead.

It is actually very clear.

to further comment on the "question" part: "but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning" - it DOES NOT FUNCTION against the above items, so those listed (even though some do HP damage), once again, can KILL YOU.


"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."

It doesn't say ignore, like it did in 3.5. It doesn't say deactivate Regeneration.

Just that Regeneration doesn't heal you.

"they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

It doesn't say cannot die from hp damage. Or cannot die if Regeneration can heal you.

Just that you cannot die while Regeneration is active.

Of course Regeneration is still functioning, since you didn't die and it wasn't deactivated.

Sczarni

Samasboy1 wrote:

"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."

It doesn't say ignore, like it did in 3.5. It doesn't say deactivate Regeneration.

Just that Regeneration doesn't heal you.

"they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

It doesn't say cannot die from hp damage. Or cannot die if Regeneration can heal you.

Just that you cannot die while Regeneration is active.

Of course Regeneration is still functioning, since you didn't die and it wasn't deactivated.

Again, regeneration does not function against those items listed, ergo YOU DIE FROM THEM. Clearly.


No, it does not heal them. It is still active. You don't die. Clearly.

Sczarni

Samasboy1 wrote:
No, it does not heal them. It is still active. You don't die. Clearly.

You are saying it is "functioning" against something it clearly states it does not function against. Ie. you saying "it is always functioning against everything" which is clearly not the case, as it is spelled out clearly in the description what it does not function against.

I would further argue that it is NEVER functioning UNLESS it has HP damage to heal (since this is the only thing that triggers it's working in the first place). This is a technical/semantic argument. And it shows why regeneration doesn't function against the aforementioned attacks (thus it is "not functioning" against them). It is ALWAYS functioning against HP damage unless suppressed. But it is NEVER functioning against those damages listed. Thus those damages listed can kill you because it is NEVER functioning against them.

The Exchange

Maybe when they get around to editing the Dead condition, they'll include a clarification that fast healing and regeneration don't work when you're dead. I know it's plenty clear enough for me as it is.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Let's try to be civil in our disagreements and avoid assigning motives to others, okay guys? People also tend to respond poorly to being "yelled at" in text.


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DrDeth wrote:

Guys, I hope you all like the new $500 and 50# CRB you're asking for.

Honestly, do you really want Paizo to write every line as a paragraph and every rule takes up several pages? Use some common sense. In PF, RAI trumps RAW. Don't parse rules like they are lines of legal boilerplate.

Actually, what would be great is if they used FEWER words/lines to bring GREATER clarity. Everyone here seems to think that in order to avoid corner cases that more words are needed. Anyone who has actually studied linguistics will tell you that the best way to bring clarity is to use less words.

PRD wrote:

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

"MORE clear, 27 FEWER words wrote:


Regeneration (Ex) Creatures with regeneration heal HP damage at a fixed rate per round. Creatures with 0 HP fall unconscious instead of dying. Certain damage types stop regeneration from functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the damage types that cause the regeneration to cease functioning and the amount of HP regenerated each round.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

You could probably even remove "and can die normally" from the clarified description since it doesn't contain the text inferring that they can't die in the first place.


Nothing says it doesn't "function" against non-hp damage, only that it doesn't heal such things.

If Regeneration is functioning is a binary question, it is either on or off. It doesn't function against one attack and not function against another attack at the same time.

"Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack" certainly says to me it is always functioning, except for one round following a specific type of attack.

Yes, Regeneration won't work if you are dead, but unless exposes to one of the specific attacks that stop it from functioning, you aren't dead in the first place.

Sczarni

Even more clear with less words:
REGENERATION: Heals HP damage each round. Creatures don't die from HP damage, and fall unconscious at 0 HP instead. Certain damage types stop regeneration from functioning on the round following the attack.
A creature may still starve, die of thirst, or suffocate to death. Regeneration allows one's own severed limbs to be reattached within an hour to graft back onto the body and heal. Alternately their limbs simply regrow completely when they reach full HP.

Note: the "one's own" makes it clear that one cannot use several other people's severed limbs to make themselves into 4,6,8 20 armed monstrosities. ... because hey, right now they can, right? Like the current "functioning" argument, RAW doesn't say it is "their own" limbs. Just severed ones. Riiiiight....

Sczarni

Samasboy1 wrote:

Nothing says it doesn't "function" against non-hp damage, only that it doesn't heal such things.

If Regeneration is functioning is a binary question, it is either on or off. It doesn't function against one attack and not function against another attack at the same time.

"Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack" certainly says to me it is always functioning, except for one round following a specific type of attack.

Yes, Regeneration won't work if you are dead, but unless exposes to one of the specific attacks that stop it from functioning, you aren't dead in the first place.

So we are using semantics to debate whether a healing power that does not heal things is functioning or not? Really? It is clear, people just choose to be obtuse about it and love semantic arguments. No offense to anyone in particular taking that side of the discussion.

The basic premise of the ability is that "it heals....blah blah blah"... if it "does not heal" then it isn't working. Clearly. Which is to say that the attacks that it isn't working against (note: it never works against these, it never heals these, it never functions against these, it never recovers HP from these, it never does squat against these...just because they didn't use the verbiage you like doesn't mean that it creates a magical catch 22) can kill you.


maouse wrote:


Creatures don't die from HP damage, and fall unconscious at 0 HP instead.

That's the thing. It doesn't say that.

And if Regeneration wasn't functioning until after they have been damaged, then a single blow that takes them from full hp to -Con wouldn't be healed, since they would be dead before it "kicked in."

maouse wrote:

So we are using semantics to debate whether a healing power that does not heal things is functioning or not? Really? It is clear, people just choose to be obtuse about it and love semantic arguments. No offense to anyone in particular taking that side of the discussion.

The basic premise of the ability is that "it heals....blah blah blah"... if it "does not heal" then it isn't working. Clearly.

It isn't semantics. The ability doesn't function or not function against individual attacks. It is either functioning or not functioning. When functioning, it heals hp. When functioning, you cannot die.

There is no expressed link between these two things.

Your "Clearly" to those on the opposite side is "clearly" wrong. Because you have to add words to get it to say what you want it to say.

Sczarni

Samasboy1 wrote:
maouse wrote:


Creatures don't die from HP damage, and fall unconscious at 0 HP instead.

That's the thing. It doesn't say that.

And if Regeneration wasn't functioning until after they have been damaged, then a single blow that takes them from full hp to -Con wouldn't be healed, since they would be dead before it "kicked in."

I agree that it is always functioning AGAINST HP DAMAGE. But is never functioning against the attacks mentioned. So when someone takes ONE POINT of damage from suffocation, for instance, it (still) doesn't function against that, so they die. The premise is that it heals damage, and if there is a damage it doesn't heal, then the premise is that it doesn't work against that damage type... it is still functioning against HP damage, sure, but you DIED because of suffocation. And when you die, you're dead. And as per fast healing, when you die, it ceases to function.


No, that is YOUR premise.

What it SAYS it that it is active, unless turned off for one round, and while active you cannot die. Each round it is active you heal hp.

Sczarni

OK. We'll all agree to disagree... RAW I can see where your argument is coming from, though it clearly makes a case that it doesn't work (at all) against the mentioned damage types (thirst, starvation and suffocation). If you want to claim that it does still function until someone hits you with a match (or whatever) then fine. For all intents and purposes once someone is unconscious it doesn't really matter if they are healing or not from those forms of damage. It will take them at least one hour to wake up (without spells). RAI it is clearly clear.

To go back to the Death Knell/lethal damage question - if it states you are dead/die, per the "like fast healing", when you are dead, it stops functioning. So if you suffer that spell effect, you are dead, it stops functioning, and you die. "even though you can't die" in the description of the ability, the spell effect occurs too. So you become the cat in the box, both alive and dead at the same time... and well, if the cat is ever dead, then it is dead, because that which kept it alive stopped working for a micro microsecond.


The distinction I think you're not making is between "heals" and "functions against". Regeneration has two functions; it heals you, and it prevents you from dying. The preventing you from dying functions against everything, the healing only functions against hit point damage, since it's specified in hit points per round.

Regeneration won't keep you from losing all your strength, or get your strength back faster, if you get poisoned. But it says that you cannot die while it is functioning. Not "from the specific effects it can heal", but "while it is not suppressed".

And I don't think it's "clear", simply because I see so many people who read it, conclude that Pathfinder intended this as a huge buff to regeneration, and don't even realize there's another interpretation.

I don't think immunity-to-death is any weirder than immunity-to-sleep. Elves are immune to magical sleep. This doesn't create some horrible incomprehensible state when you hit them with a spell which would normally cause sleep, it just doesn't have any effect, because they're immune.

The plain English reading of "cannot die" would indeed include "immune to death".


I'm curious, how would you reconcile Energy Drains? I couldn't see regeneration helping when it's your life-force being threatened. It's not hit point damage and regeneration is not immortality.


Lucien Malgus wrote:
I'm curious, how would you reconcile Energy Drains? I couldn't see regeneration helping when it's your life-force being threatened. It's not hit point damage and regeneration is not immortality.

I dunno. I think you'd just end up being really, really, damaged and screwed up, but not dead, because nothing has suppressed your regeneration. Sounds sucky.


seebs wrote:
Lucien Malgus wrote:
I'm curious, how would you reconcile Energy Drains? I couldn't see regeneration helping when it's your life-force being threatened. It's not hit point damage and regeneration is not immortality.
I dunno. I think you'd just end up being really, really, damaged and screwed up, but not dead, because nothing has suppressed your regeneration. Sounds sucky.

That's just it though, regeneration heals hit point damage and even lost limbs, but your life energy is not something regeneration actually deals with. Energy Drains operate outside of those two conditions and attacks the very essence of who you are. If you are focused only on the 'you cannot die' part of the description, then it is no longer regeneration, it's immortality. It opens the idea that suffocation, dehydration, starvation, among other things, cannot kill the target. Regeneration is a potent ability, but not that powerful.


We actually covered this already.

So, for the pro-"cannot die" crowd, if you received enough energy drain to kill you, but nothing deactivated your Regeneration, you would not die.

24 hours after you don't die, you would receive your saves to remove the negative levels.

In the mean time, you are comatose.

Immortality means you cannot be killed. You can kill a creature with Regeneration (by using an attack that turns it off), so it isn't immortality.

For the anti-"cannot die" crowd, since Regeneration doesn't heal energy drain, you would die. (Mentioning both sides, just to be fair).

maouse wrote:
OK. We'll all agree to disagree

Yeah, at a certain point its all you can do sometimes.

James Risner (another poster) and I never seem to agree on anything, which you have sometimes.


Lucien Malgus wrote:
seebs wrote:
Lucien Malgus wrote:
I'm curious, how would you reconcile Energy Drains? I couldn't see regeneration helping when it's your life-force being threatened. It's not hit point damage and regeneration is not immortality.
I dunno. I think you'd just end up being really, really, damaged and screwed up, but not dead, because nothing has suppressed your regeneration. Sounds sucky.
That's just it though, regeneration heals hit point damage and even lost limbs, but your life energy is not something regeneration actually deals with. Energy Drains operate outside of those two conditions and attacks the very essence of who you are. If you are focused only on the 'you cannot die' part of the description, then it is no longer regeneration, it's immortality. It opens the idea that suffocation, dehydration, starvation, among other things, cannot kill the target. Regeneration is a potent ability, but not that powerful.

That's how I've seen regeneration played in Pathfinder: Until you do something that turns off the regeneration, they don't die. We've carried trolls around in a bag of holding for days until we had time to do something about it. No air = suffocation, preventing it from recovering enough to DO anything. But it can't die.


Hey, if that's how you roll in the game and everyone's cool with it, that's fine. I'm going to jump on the 'agree to disagree' freedom train and ride off into the sunset ;)


seebs wrote:
That's how I've seen regeneration played in Pathfinder: Until you do something that turns off the regeneration, they don't die. We've carried trolls around in a bag of holding for days until we had time to do something about it. No air = suffocation, preventing it from recovering enough to DO anything. But it can't die.

Hey, we can go even sillier in the literal interpretation of the rules.

Suffocation: round 1 you fall unconscious and drop to 0 hp; round 2 you drop to -1 hp and start dying; round 3 you suffocate (but don't die because it doesn't say you die!)

Drowning: round 1 you fall unconscious and drop to 0 hp; round 2 you drop to -1 hp and start dying; round 3 you drown (but don't die because it doesn't say you die!)

And to beat a troll's regeneration, you can use a magnifying glass under the sun, or some vinegar (acetic acid), or lemon juice (citric acid), or crushed aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) and sprinkle it on a troll and do 0 damage and it still works. Because it's a fire/acid attack, not damage, that disables regeneration.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
Actually, what would be great is if they used FEWER words/lines to bring GREATER clarity. Everyone here seems to think that in order to avoid corner cases that more words are needed. Anyone who has actually studied linguistics will tell you that the best way to bring clarity is to use less words.

I actually took a college course in Journalism where the whole point was teaching people to do just that! So, naturally, I totally agree.


If "You cannot die", then the death effect should not succeed in the first place. One does not simply drop dead, roll their save, get right back up with no change in actions/turns/HP/stance/concentration. You could not die so you did not die.


Actually reading fast healing since its basically there in the sentence with cannot die, im thinking the cannot die part is talking about fast healing and how it is different.
fast healing and regeneration share almost the same words and i thought it maybe important since it referenced it. Im thinking the cannot die was written because fast healing says that u still heal health each round even if u are dying but states u can die when u take enough lethal damage to kill you and i believe the cannot die part is in direct response to fast healing in that if someone with regeration was dealt lethal damage they would not die whereas someone with fast healing would.
Reading them back to back, i do believe regeneration only lets u not die from lethal damage.

They really need to just say that regeneration only saves u from dying from lethal damage or that regeneration saves u from EVER dying unless its turned off.

Sczarni

Redneckdevil wrote:
Reading them back to back, i do believe regeneration only lets u not die from lethal (HP) damage.

Precisely the way I interpret it. (emphasis added)

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