Making Money in a Low Loot World.


Advice

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sgtrocknroll wrote:
Craft (alchemy) +6

That's your money-maker at present. In this campaign I would strongly suggest dropping Identify (how likely is it you'll actually see a magical item anyway) and pick up Crafter's Fortune instead.

Then, next time you're in a city. Spend that 50 gp you just earned on supplies and post up for a bit crafting alchemical items to sell.

Light detectors are only DC 10 so you can increase the DC by 5 to expedite and still make the DC by taking 10.

Crafter's Fortune and one more Rank next level will let you make the vast majority of alchemical items by taking 10.

It's no get rich quick scheme, but it's probably the best you've got.


I'm actually curious as to whether the GM let his group know the kind of game he was running beforehand. Running a tight ship on wealth for the first few levels isn't necessarily a game breaker as long as encounter difficulty and their frequency isn't business as usual.


There's really not enough information to determine if they received a surprise merde sandwich or signed on knowing what was coming.

I'm also not sure if the GM is trying to bring a flavor akin to Thieves' World to this game, or what. Playing with limited healing is awesome if you enjoy extended periods of downtime recovering from being poisoned or diseased, let alone an enemy necromancer nailing your character with a blindness spell. If there are available fixes for these problems and/or people are having fun, let the good times roll.

The one thing I am sure of is that liking Twilight should be illegal.


Fabricate Bullet is a level 1 sorcerer spell that turns 2g of lead into 30 bullets which sells for 15g = 13g profit per casting.


FuelDrop wrote:
It's illegal to like Twilight.

QFT


Unfortunately, Crafting rolls are not the same as Spellcrafting rolls (or the particular Craft roll) when making magic items. It actually takes quite a bit longer to make Alchemical items than you might think. Additionally, I don't believe that you can take a DC 5 penalty to expedite the time as you can with magic items (I certainly do see it in the Craft Skill description).

For example, if you take 10 on your check and get the 20 that you need (DC 20) for Alchemist's Fire, that means it took you a bit less than 4 days to make it at which point you've got yourself a 20gp item that you have 7gp in cost. I'm betting your GM won't let you sell it for more than 10gp though.

Maybe do Instant Alchemy instead.

Or, even better, just play Bob the Crafter. Tell the DM, we're gonna take some time off and simply try to make some money doing our "crafts" until we're a bit better equipped to Fight Evil™. Abuse the Crafter's Fortune spell and just have a bit of fun playing Settlers of Golarion for a few years. Don't take 10 either, simply do the rolls each week and earn 1/2 of your roll in gp each week. Sadly, without the Downtime rules or the Hedge Magician trait (or similar), you just don't have a lot of good options within the rules to make bank.


Quote:

Accelerated Crafting: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.

Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) should be divided by the number of days in a week.

At level 5 you can also take the Master Alchemist feat to measure crafting progress in gold pieces instead of silver. Anyone with 5 ranks in craft can make decent non-class alchemists.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

raid an armory for your stuff, who needs gold anyway.

you can do this as stealthy or courageous as you want. if it's a small town with no guards, even better, find who usually protects the village and who has weapons and steal from them.

there's a reason bandits exist, because they can't get money any other way than through martial success.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
sgtrocknroll wrote:

Playing a 3rd Level Hal-Orc Sorceress in a Low Loot world where the GM makes us micromanage resources and still has us do months long caravan jobs for 50GP which we consider big money at this point.

There are no clerics and general populace fears magic.
.

First question above all... Do you find this campaign fun? If not, why are you still playing?

Second question if the answer to 1 is yes, than are you really having a problem? You seem to be surviving so far, the scarcity of money is a relative thing if the world over all is cash poor. The various folk in a Game of Thrones world don't do their living for a paycheck, they typically receive payment in kind. The serf farmer gets to keep his land after turning over his portion of crops to his lord, the knight receives shelter, food, and equipment for service with occasional coinage thrown his way.

In a truly mediaeval economy, many folk will go through their entire lives without seeing more than a speck of coin. Maybe this is the experience your GM is working at, and hopefully has adjusted the rest of the campaign to fit.


Do truly evil things to get your money. Roleplay the h@#$ out of it.
Have fun.

Grand Lodge

Some people are all about excessive paperwork, and micromanaging.

Not sure what that adds to roleplaying, but as long as everyone is having fun, then it is fine.


May have to wait a few levels for this, but here's something I plan to throw at my PCs, modified for usage by PCs (and one I fully plan on pulling off one day when I can get a cool GM that doesn't totally railroad).

Step 1) Pick up some mind control spells.

Step 2) Get competent people to commit crimes.

Step 3) "Stop" them in the act. Preferably by making sure they can't talk (murder is good).

Step 4) Receive reward.

Step 5) Repeat steps 2 through 4 until you have a nice profit.

Step 6) Bulk you and your party up on gear.

Step 7) Hire bandits to terrorize towns.

Step 8) After a month, sell your swords as 'protection' to towns.

Step 9) Mock combat with your underlings, and 'drive them off'.

Step 10) When one area is tapped out, have the bard (or rumormonger rogue) spin a wonderful yarn about you guys driving the bandits out, killing most of them.

Step 11) Send bandits to another poorly-defended, rich area.

Step 12) Repeat the process as a cunning and vicious bandit leader in which your bandit men keep the spoils that they can 'run off' with, and your party gets the 'reward' for saving the town. Maybe expand and have various groups bandit, and others 'save the town', and just tap people dry.

....

This also works well with hiring a dragon and selling yourself as a dragon slayer. Dennis Quaid has proven this.


Ultimate Campaign - Downtime.

Doesn't take a lot of effort or capital to start up small business, and the relatively passive income would really be impressive, especially compared to low-loot adventuring...


*sigh*

Well, my infernal healing got screwed. Turns out the material component is a drop of demon blood or a DOSE of unholy water (25gp) so not getting to use it anytime soon as I don't have Blood Money, and the GM, not liking the constant healing I was doing, researched it and found I'd misread DOSE to read DROP.

The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class, thankfully we had precedent as a prior player played a Fire based one.

Sucks, as I was using Infernal Healing not just to keep the party moving but to be my first step towards exploring her evil roots, conceptually...

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of other evil themed 1st level spells...


sgtrocknroll wrote:

*sigh*

Well, my infernal healing got screwed. Turns out the material component is a drop of demon blood or a DOSE of unholy water (25gp) so not getting to use it anytime soon as I don't have Blood Money, and the GM, not liking the constant healing I was doing, researched it and found I'd misread DOSE to read DROP.

The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class, thankfully we had precedent as a prior player played a Fire based one.

Sucks, as I was using Infernal Healing not just to keep the party moving but to be my first step towards exploring her evil roots, conceptually...

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of other evil themed 1st level spells...

Your DM sounds awful.

"A sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level."

Demon blood falls into the category of Eschew materials, oddly enough. You don't need to track it. Your wizard should also be picking up eschew materials, or ideally false focus.


Guys, devil blood for infernal healing, not demon blood.


sgtrocknroll wrote:
... The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class...

I take back anything I may have thought about your GM just keeping a fist around the pouch for low levels... This just screams red flag and horrible GM to me.

I'm hesitant to say find another table, since I know personally how hard it is to find a good table, and this guy still doesn't sound as bad as the GM I had last Saturday... But it's still something to consider.

Had to freaking push to let in an oracle of all things... Freaking A...


Would you be willing to rebuild to be able to make money more effectively during downtime? You could pick up blood money and combine it with masterwork transformation? I know it has already been mentioned, but as a 3rd level wizard this could be really good for you and your group, and its a surefire way to make money in a world that fears magic. Nobody will see you make it, and masterwork gear isn't magical in nature. Weapons, armor, ammunition, kits, all can be made masterwork.

Ask your DM about this, and let us know what he thinks about investing character resources (spells known/spell slots) to increase your wealth to be closer to wealth-by-level range.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
sgtrocknroll wrote:
... The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class...

I take back anything I may have thought about your GM just keeping a fist around the pouch for low levels... This just screams red flag and horrible GM to me.

I'm hesitant to say find another table, since I know personally how hard it is to find a good table, and this guy still doesn't sound as bad as the GM I had last Saturday... But it's still something to consider.

Had to freaking push to let in an oracle of all things... Freaking A...

That's a bit of an overreaction. Apparently this is a GM who just wants to stick to Core Rulebook only. There's nothing particurlarly unholy about it. Pathfinder was a perfectly serviceable game when it was limited to CRB and Bestiary One.

I feel more sorry for the player who got pushed into making a healbot by his fellow players.


Makes me wonder why the GM even allows spellcasters in the game. Sounds like he'd prefer to run a table of nothing but unarmed fighters.


LazarX wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
sgtrocknroll wrote:
... The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class...

I take back anything I may have thought about your GM just keeping a fist around the pouch for low levels... This just screams red flag and horrible GM to me.

I'm hesitant to say find another table, since I know personally how hard it is to find a good table, and this guy still doesn't sound as bad as the GM I had last Saturday... But it's still something to consider.

Had to freaking push to let in an oracle of all things... Freaking A...

That's a bit of an overreaction. Apparently this is a GM who just wants to stick to Core Rulebook only. There's nothing particurlarly unholy about it. Pathfinder was a perfectly serviceable game when it was limited to CRB and Bestiary One.

I feel more sorry for the player who got pushed into making a healbot by his fellow players.

In retrospect, you may be right. Posted when I was exhausted and I'm a bit less stable when I'm half-asleep (such as now).

That said, it was more of that being a 'critical nail in the coffin' than a final one. And yeah, I do feel sorry for the guy who got pushed into making a healbot, but it sounds like it was necessary.

And as for sticking to core? I've got no problem with it. The problem I've got is that whole adventure sounds wonky to me, and having to beg the DM to let a player even be a healbot has me confused as all out. I tend to walk away from games that leave me in a 'what the fargo is this?' state if it doesn't get explained well enough. Not sure if anything's been explained to the OP's group at all aside from the basic description, but, eh...

As with everything, YMMV.


I've got no problem with a low magic, low loot campaign. That's not my issue with this. My issue is that it seems to be 'ruling after the fact,' which is no fun for anyone (other than a power tripping GM).


LazarX wrote:


That's a bit of an overreaction. Apparently this is a GM who just wants to stick to Core Rulebook only. There's nothing particurlarly unholy about it. Pathfinder was a perfectly serviceable game when it was limited to CRB and Bestiary One.

I feel more sorry for the player who got pushed into making a healbot by his fellow players.

Disallowing clerics and reading the fine print to get rid of a spell that's not in the CRB is CRB only?

Doesn't seem to fit the facts as presented, but we've got no more from the OP as to what the true situation is. I'm assuming that the various moneymaking schemes presented will be nerfed into uselessness given what we know thus far, but I'm not sure if that's because the GM is an utter tool or if he has a very specific idea of what he wants in a campaign in mind. Or maybe both!

It sounds like what the GM's after would probably work better with a different system like Iron Heroes or Savage Worlds, or the various house rules I've seen that attempt to get rid of reliance on magic items by giving PCs scaling bonuses as they level instead of +2 backscratchers and other shiny toys. An e6 campaign sounds up his alley as well. In any case, this is all speculation without more information.

The Exchange

CraziFuzzy wrote:
...Sounds like he'd prefer to run a table of nothing but unarmed fighters.

Hmmm... (scribbles note reading "Mobile Fighter w/ dual wield clubs" on a napkin)


In game you cannot MAKE the DM do anything. If he says wealth is low and nigh unachievable then that is a fact. He is GOD.

OUT of game is an entire different matter. You can talk to him, let him know this is making the game unenjoyable and try to work something out like adults. Maybe he is looking for y'all to just be clever and wealth can be yours if you just work it out. Then some of these suggestions are golden. But if he simply does not want the world to be rewarding to the PCs then nothing you can do will make it so. That's a challenge to deal with out of game, not in game.


sgtrocknroll wrote:

*sigh*

Well, my infernal healing got screwed. Turns out the material component is a drop of demon blood or a DOSE of unholy water (25gp) so not getting to use it anytime soon as I don't have Blood Money, and the GM, not liking the constant healing I was doing, researched it and found I'd misread DOSE to read DROP.

The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class, thankfully we had precedent as a prior player played a Fire based one.

Sucks, as I was using Infernal Healing not just to keep the party moving but to be my first step towards exploring her evil roots, conceptually...

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of other evil themed 1st level spells...

Your Eschew Materials feat WOULD allow you to cast the spell, as no cost is given for the materials according to RAW (GM has the ability to change any rule he wants, though). The way this sounds you are not having fun playing this game, is there a reason you are continuing?


Experiment 626 wrote:

It sounds like what the GM's after would probably work better with a different system like Iron Heroes or Savage Worlds, ...

Yeah but dontyousee- he can't get any interest in anything BUT Pathfinder. So, he has to lure players in by saying "It's Pathfinder" when it's really not. It's some bastardized version done by a DM that can't handle PF since, well you know, the PC's might get "out of control" and he doesn't have enough imagination or DM skills to handle it.

I have suggested Iron Heroes several times, and that's basically been the response. "They want to Play Pathfinder so I am gonna call it that, even if it isn't."

Gives Pathfinder a bad name.


DrDeth wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:

It sounds like what the GM's after would probably work better with a different system like Iron Heroes or Savage Worlds, ...

Yeah but dontyousee- he can't get any interest in anything BUT Pathfinder. So, he has to lure players in by saying "It's Pathfinder" when it's really not. It's some bastardized version done by a DM that can't handle PF since, well you know, the PC's might get "out of control" and he doesn't have enough imagination or DM skills to handle it.

I have suggested Iron Heroes several times, and that's basically been the response. "They want to Play Pathfinder so I am gonna call it that, even if it isn't."

Gives Pathfinder a bad name.

sounds like what I had to deal with last weekend. Some bastardized horse$#!- based around Rifts/Star Trek/Warhammer 40K/Star Wars set in Serenity The lure? "Planeswalking like never done before!". Also had a 4th level GMPC he made extensive use of random house rules he claimed were legal in Pathfinder "because there aren't any rules stating otherwise" that was out-doing an entire 6 person party of 12th level PCs (Alchemsit 2/Magus 2, spell combating True Strike with bombs that were somehow getting a combined damage of around 10d6, + strength modifier since they were "thrown weapons"), and claimed we weren't "roleplaying" our characters when we literally had to stop and think WTF was going on (because he kept making tactical mistakes and calling them genius, and we had a Time Thief that kept re-winding time). Still set off the bomb that blew the ship apart that we only learned about AFTER it happened, and the TT had to re-wind time TWICE because the GM kept detonating it whenever the Orks were losing... Edit: Oh, and after the game he had the nerve to say that everyone were bad role players, screwed up royally, and really need to get better at the game, while pointing out the new player as "the only one who didn't make a mistake". She just sat on the side lines since she was a skill monkey rogue with little combat ability, since the group was primarily combat... That session lasted 10 hours for a single combat, thanks to this guy stopping to 'explain' something setting specific in the middle of people's turns, then #$(%^ed at us for 'taking too damn long with your turns, it should go bam bam bam, i already know what im doing, have my dice rolled and lined up, and there ya go'... /edit

Fortunately, OP's guy doesn't sound as bad as that one... Yet. After my last major group, and last weekend's GM, I almost want to play in this guy's game. This I can handle... When I'm not cranky and half-asleep with insomnia at five in the morning.

The Exchange

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:
...what I had to deal with ...based around Rifts/Star Trek/Warhammer 40K/Star Wars set in Serenity. The lure? "Planeswalking like never done before!". Also had a 4th level GMPC he made extensive use of random house rules he claimed were legal in Pathfinder "because there aren't any rules stating otherwise" that was out-doing an entire 6 person party of 12th level PCs (Alchemist 2/Magus 2, spell combating True Strike with bombs that were somehow getting a combined damage of around 10d6, + strength modifier since they were "thrown weapons"), and claimed we weren't "roleplaying" our characters when we literally had to stop and think WTF was going on (because he kept making tactical mistakes and calling them genius, and we had a Time Thief that kept re-winding time). Still set off the bomb that blew the ship apart that we only learned about AFTER it happened, and the TT had to re-wind time TWICE because the GM kept detonating it whenever the Orks were losing...

(hesitant pause)

Well, the GM did deliver on one thing: that really is "planeswalking like never done before." And now we know why nobody ever did it like that before.

We all forget, sometimes, how bad a GM can be. Let us count our blessings.


Lincoln Hills wrote:


(hesitant pause)

Well, the GM did deliver on one thing: that really is "planeswalking like never done before." And now we know why nobody ever did it like that before.

We all forget, sometimes, how bad a GM can be. Let us count our blessings.

Oh don't worry... Check out the edit I forgot to put in. We may not see eye-to-eye too often, but now I feel alright in my being horribly #$)%ed off with that game.

Like I said... Compared to that, low-loot low-magic would be freaking child's play.

That said... Seriously OP, like most suggest, talk to your GM out of game. Find out what he wants out of the game, and maybe convince him to talk about his expectations with the players. Even something as simple as "Well, you guys could get a bit more cunning or out of the box with how you get your wealth..." would appear to fix quite a bit of it...

Still wary on the whole no-clerics thing myself.


Well, I've read plenty, and I can agree with many of the posters here: The GM is being a giant goober.

If a GM is going to say you're cheating, but ignores the Eschew Materials bonus feat, which solves the supposed loophole you've been extorting, it just tells me he's vastly inexperienced and doesn't really pay any attention to the statistics of his PCs unless it's something negative to his agenda or far-fetched.

Chances are, he doesn't really keep track of most subjects, nor would he really know how, given he doesn't even understand that you have Eschew Materials, which as stated above, fixes his complaint that he had with you casting the spell, and that he doesn't seem to know anything about WBL guidelines or what have you. He probably doesn't even know what you guys have for abilities, spells, hit points, skills, etc. or a statistic sheet to keep track of those things on-hand, as well as for monsters, developing the story's plot (as it sits, it's just a caravan sandbox infested with hundreds of venomous vipers, turning the sandbox into a toxic pit of doom and sadness), etc.

He's just running the game however he so solemnly chooses, meaning if everyone is on board with it, then fine, everybody go have fun; but if he's imposing rules or mechanics without consent of the players, or ruining the fun of the players without any reasoning or in-game rules to support the cause of "not-fun," then he's not a GM you or the rest of the players want to game with. Have you talked to the other players for their take on the matter? It would definitely help with your decision if other players are fed up with the gameplay and share your opinion.

It also doesn't help that he was against a heal-bot, something which the party desperately needed since they can't afford the most basic of items, like potions of healing, signaling that he would rather play the entire party himself or force players into specific builds than let the players play their own PCs. (I've done this a few times myself; I regret doing it now, and I've gotten better at not doing it, but in my defense at the time, they were asking me for advice on character builds and combat strategies.)

Despite all these negative implications, we're ignoring one very important thing: He is still a person, a human being. It would be immoral of you to simply up and leave without trying to talk to him and understand how/why he plays the game the way he does, or if he's willing to change the gameplay because you (and most likely the other players) aren't happy with the current way the game is being played, and if you don't do that, then you'd be "that guy," while he'd be "the victim".

However, if he is still a stubborn goober when you talk to him, then there should be no moral qualms among those who are outside the looking glass. You simply wanted to play a different (and more fun) game, and the GM disliked and rejected your proposal of wanting to play a different game; at this point it's a crossroads between you (and any players who dislike the gameplay) and the GM (and any players who like the gameplay).


Your gm has cast an hypnotism spell on you ... "KAY! "

Now since your free back to the OP. Get your group togetter and start a wandering casino whit your party. Have the GM roleplay it. You had all the trics to make the pavillon tent and all trinket you need cheap. The coins are sure to cash in fast, prestidigitation is a must ( pee break to recast), social skill is important, everyone can have a table to make money in.

Now here is the pot aux roses: be proactive whit your GM (since i've broken the railroading spell) and see how and where it goes. If everything run nice and smooth ( 100 gp in a night for the party is easy achievement in a small town) use the casino as a gossip for adventure in some lair or ancien dungeon. If it turn out sour and the GM is stingy, its time to have a talk about where the game is going and what grand plan he has for your group.

Recapping your adventure so far, you ran into random encounter only and roleplay your quarter copper. Your GM seem to be open in letting your group goes their way to some extend ( styrge) and can be forced to allow some contents he's not so thrilled about ( Oracle). Exploit his weakness whitout playing in his strenght ( fiat infernal healing).

At best, pc and players alike will be able to make their own story ( has i think table top game should be played). At worst, you will develop the basic skill of gming.

Always remember rpg rule #1: everyone have fun at the table.


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Let him TPK you.

You don't have healing and you need healing? That's because you're going to die without it.

Alternately, spend days healing the old fashioned way.

But seriously, let the low loot bite you in the ass and bite hard. Let the GM utterly destroy your characters. And when it comes time to start the game again...

He's no longer GM.

He needs to know that his decisions are destroying his own happiness.


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sgtrocknroll wrote:
The good news is he just brought in another player to make a character last night and we found this out before his character was done so we convinced him to change characters from a Ranger to a Life Oracle...had to PUSH the GM into allowing the class, thankfully we had precedent as a prior player played a Fire based one.

If he can still edit his character he needs to take some traits:

Regional Trait: Chosen Child (+900 gp)
Social Trait: Rich Parents (+900 gp)

Your party can gain as much additional gold as 36 caravan trips. If your GM allows the normal 2 free traits you are covered. If not get the feat Additional Traits to gain two traits.

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