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Metamagic Guide, looking for feedback.


Advice

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mastering Metamagic

Let me know what you think.


dot for convincing. Thanks.


I mostly glanced over it but you may want to add a section explaining what they are, or at least what the numbers besides each feat mean exactly for those who don't know. Overall I think it is looking good.


I think it's a good reference, i get the feeling you like blasting alot haha.


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I disagree with your ratings for silent and still spell. Silence and its variants completely disables casters unless they can cast without verbal components. Silent is also useful when the party is in stealth: it gives you some extra time to buff before the surprise round. Still spell is somewhat less valuable, but is still useful for the occasion in which you are restrained. Still should probably be orange, silent should be green.

Now, in certain types of campaigns (intrigue-heavy campaigns, mainly), both are blue or purple (stealth is more common, as are situations in which diplomacy becomes an assassination: in such a circumstance, if you have both silent and still, you can use several still silent buffs while talking, before anyone realizes that a combat is about to begin.)
That isn't as common in a typical campaign, so if you mention it at all it should be as a seperate rating ("in an intrigue-heavy campaign, this becomes <new rating>").

I also think you really overvalued intensified spell. Direct damage is usually a weak method to begin with...and the real power of blasting spells, the debuffs you can attach to them with other metamagic feats, aren't helped by intensify spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I made some changes based on suggestions and added an explanation of what the numbers in front of the feat were for.

Reason I had intensify higher than others may rate it is due to its popularity in magus builds. That and I do like heavy blasting builds.

Thanks for the help so far.

Silver Crusade

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I'd suggest adding a magic item section. Mostly for the rods, of course, but you should probably mention other items which interact with metamagic


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do you have examples of non rod items I should add?


Rylar wrote:
Do you have examples of non rod items I should add?

Staff of the Master (necromancy)


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>Empower is rated Blue but Persistent Spell is only rated Orange.

To use your example spell in Empower as a level comparison, at level 7 when one could first Empower level 2 spells a Wizard could either cast two 6d6 fire rays, or force your opponent to make two separate saves against things like Glitterdust, Web, Blindness/Deafness, Hideous Laughter etc.

You're sacrificing 10% odds of a single failure (and the opportunity cost of a higher level spell), to force them to successfully Save twice. That opportunity cost is a hefty one, but it's usually a far better tradeoff than a little extra damage.

EDIT: wait a minute... you're going out of your way to highlight the -2 to damage offered by Sickening Spell? Who even cares about that? The real value to it is setting up an opponent to fail a followup spell.


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Persistent spell should be given a higher rating. It basically doubles your chance at landing a spell. As an example if your enemy has a 70% chance at making a saving forcing him to make it twice drops it to 35%. It is mathematically better than heighten spell for the purpose of forcing saves to fail.


After reading through I notice right off that your level adjustment is interesting for reach spell. It only cost 3 if you take a touch spell and make it long range. Hitting your buddy more than 1/2 a mile away with a heal is probably worth a 9th level slot. At least it's cheaper than the 9th level slot you are going to need if you don't have that metamagic. But in all honesty, it usually only cost 1 level to go from touch to close.

Other than that I too noticed that the information was assuming a blasting type character. With just one exception it seemed like divine casters didn't get considered in the grading process at all.

Only a couple that I flat disagree with you on. Extend spell is a great feat. It is best used on hour/level buffs though, not min/level before combat. Overland flight lasts 22 hours at 11th level (1 6th level slot vs 2 5th level slots. Yes please). Mage Armor lasts for your full adventuring day at 4th level. Magic Vestment, Greater magic weapon/fang, endure elements, detect scrying, nondetection, heroism, longstrider, etc all all hugely benefited by extend spell.

2nd is persistent spell. Particularly if you are advocating adding riders to your reflex save spells. This becomes virtually a must have. If you have the luxury of changing up spells to target an opponents weak save then maybe not so much. But if you are specialized in a particular school/spell then you need that fireball to hit - even when you come up against a party of rogues. For that to be reliable you need persistent spell.


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Wow. You're way wrong about Persistent Spell. It's +2 levels for an effective +1 to +5 Save DC (usually about +4), to all targets. This is worthwhile.

Enlarge Spell is the very definition of a situational (orange) metamagic IMO.

Still Spell really should be Red in campaigns which aren't diplomacy heavy.

I'd rate Maximise lower, like maybe orange. As you say there are better feats which do the same job.


wraithstrike wrote:
Persistent spell should be given a higher rating. It basically doubles your chance at landing a spell. As an example if your enemy has a 70% chance at making a saving forcing him to make it twice drops it to 35%. It is mathematically better than heighten spell for the purpose of forcing saves to fail.

Wraith, this is a little side question. I have always looked at heighten as kind of a lame metamagic feat, I could never seem to get my head around why someone would not just use a higher level spell. I was having this conversation with a fellow the other day and he had a completely different read on it. He claims that heighten spell is the metamagic users best ally because of how it is written. He says that just having the feat automatically bumps DC's whenever you use any other metamagic.

Initially I thought he was mad, but then I went back and re-read heighten spell and I must say that I can get behind that reading.

Have you ever heard anyone claim this? What do you thing about that reading?


Enlarge spell is all but useless with Reach spell around. In fact, I made a thread pointing this out just the other day

Quote:

For one spell level increase:

Enlarge:
Touch Range: N/A
Close Range: 50ft + 5/lvl
Medium Range: 200ft + 20/lvl
Long Range: 800ft + 80/lvl

Reach:
Touch: becomes Close; 25ft + 5/2lvls
Close: becomes Medium; 100ft + 10/lvl
Medium: becomes Long; 400ft + 40/lvl
Long: N/A

Alright, so I suppose you can use enlarge if you really need the extra range beyond Long, but that's about it. Otherwise Reach provides twice the benefit for the same level increase and lets you use touch spells at range.


BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Persistent spell should be given a higher rating. It basically doubles your chance at landing a spell. As an example if your enemy has a 70% chance at making a saving forcing him to make it twice drops it to 35%. It is mathematically better than heighten spell for the purpose of forcing saves to fail.

Wraith, this is a little side question. I have always looked at heighten as kind of a lame metamagic feat, I could never seem to get my head around why someone would not just use a higher level spell. I was having this conversation with a fellow the other day and he had a completely different read on it. He claims that heighten spell is the metamagic users best ally because of how it is written. He says that just having the feat automatically bumps DC's whenever you use any other metamagic.

Initially I thought he was mad, but then I went back and re-read heighten spell and I must say that I can get behind that reading.

Have you ever heard anyone claim this? What do you thing about that reading?

He is, completely, and explicitly, wrong. See point 2, specifically.


It would be interesting and sort-of-useful if using Heighten to push the spell level of a metamagic-adjusted-spell by at least one additional spell level reset the DC to the new spell level (for example Heighten and Persistent to cast a 3rd level spell in a 6th level slot) but regrettably that's not how it works.


BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Persistent spell should be given a higher rating. It basically doubles your chance at landing a spell. As an example if your enemy has a 70% chance at making a saving forcing him to make it twice drops it to 35%. It is mathematically better than heighten spell for the purpose of forcing saves to fail.

Wraith, this is a little side question. I have always looked at heighten as kind of a lame metamagic feat, I could never seem to get my head around why someone would not just use a higher level spell. I was having this conversation with a fellow the other day and he had a completely different read on it. He claims that heighten spell is the metamagic users best ally because of how it is written. He says that just having the feat automatically bumps DC's whenever you use any other metamagic.

Initially I thought he was mad, but then I went back and re-read heighten spell and I must say that I can get behind that reading.

Have you ever heard anyone claim this? What do you thing about that reading?

He is wrong. If you use fireball and heighten it to a 5th level spell the DC goes up by 2. If you also add empower spell the DC does not increase again.

I have been in these debates more than once. It finally ended when an FAQ was produced which backed my claim.

FAQ

Scarab Sages

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Extend Spell should be blue or purple, not red.

I know, everyone says "just buy a rod"

But hear me out:

Once you hit about 7th level, you can cast 1 hour/level spells the night before battle, and they are still running when you get up in the morning. At 12th level they will last a full day. This means you can bank magic from one day to the next, wearing buffs like cheep jewelry.

For example: A 7th level wizard can cast extended

Dancing Lantern
Unseen Servant
Mage Armor
Cushioning Bands
False Life
Misdirection
Protection From Arrows
Darkvision
Countless Eyes
Nondetection
Ablative Barrier
Greater Magic Weapon

So cast all those the night before entering the dungeon, and go into the dungeon with 4 hours of:
A hands-free lantern
+4 AC
Weak telekinesis
Damage reduction of 2/piercing or slashing
1/2 damage from falls or cave-ins
+12 HP
DR of 10 vs arrows
Darkvision
All around vision (Can't be flanked)
SR versus Divination spells (useful while staying invisible)
The alignment aura of your choice, AND you don't radiate magic.
+1 per 4 levels of enhancement bonus on the weapon of his choice.

AND he still get's his full spell load-out for the day.

So essentially all this magic is FREE. And it only get's better (much better) at higher levels.

Extend spell is an EXCELLENT feat. You just have to know how to milk it.


I get what you're saying but some of those spells are 4th level and you can only cast them as a 7th level caster. Making them extended puts them out of your reach. This also increases the rest of the spell levels and limits what you can cast in a day.

Although this is still a viable strategy for some spells to get longer buffs, but it's dependent on knowing you're going into a dungeon or going to be getting attacked. The rod is still going to be a better option.


Thanks for putting me in the credits! :D I feel a bit special now

Scarab Sages

Khrysaor wrote:

I get what you're saying but some of those spells are 4th level and you can only cast them as a 7th level caster. Making them extended puts them out of your reach. This also increases the rest of the spell levels and limits what you can cast in a day.

Although this is still a viable strategy for some spells to get longer buffs, but it's dependent on knowing you're going into a dungeon or going to be getting attacked. The rod is still going to be a better option.

That's right. As I said,

"For example: A 7th level wizard can..."

And yes, you can't use this tactic every fight, but in my experience you CAN use it quite often. Think of it this way - whenever the GM gives you time to prepare to go into the dungeon, take an extra day and go in uber.

A more flexible tactic is to leave a few spell slots open and always keep a handfull of buffs "on" during the day. This becomes most effective at 12th level, but it can still work pretty well at lower levels. Effectively you are emulating a metamagic rod with this tactic.

At 15th level you can add in:

Overland Flight
Seeming
Getaway
Prying Eyes
Planar Adaptation
Ride the waves
Mage's Magnificent Mansion (your basecamp)

And so on. Essentially, at 12th level you gain darkvision, protection from arrows and Overland Flight as a class ability for the cost of this feat. It's still worth taking the rod, for your min/level spells, but the feat is for your hour/level spells.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd value Echoing higher personally. The lesser version may be 14k on a rod but 3 recastings of any 1st throu 3rd level spell is very cheap compared to 9k for one 3rd level pearl of power or 18K for a spontaneous version.
I particularly like it for Bards and spontaneous Magi, classes with few spells/day.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Extend should be Green
.
Toppling should be Red - rubbish at anything but very low level, CMD's soar very quickly.


Extend is also a good spell. It is particularly good at lower levels. I would likely get a lesser wand of it though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also you rate Concussive Spell as red because it only effects sonic spells but is really good if thats your bag.... You then rate Rime as blue despite it only effecting cold? You need to be consistent with your ratings.

This isn't meant to be insulting but this appears to be more of a guide to your favourite metamagic rather than an objective guide for all users.

Generally blasting is considered a sub-par choice yet you rate Elemental Spell blue? Maybe it's just a local thing but those who tend to specialize in evocation usually pick multiple blasts covering different elements and I've never seen anyone take Elemental Spell! Probably just a regional quirk.


I missed that. Elemental spell is not a blue, maybe not even for blasting. I don't think I have seen it on any good blasting builds.


I think it should be noted that with elemental spell, Dragon's Breath is the same spell level as an Elemental Fireball, but allows you to choose the element when you cast the spell. Wizards focusing in evocation are probably using Admixture as their school, getting effectively all 4 elemental spell feats but better, and for free. Non blasters seem like they would find better mileage out of rod rather than taking it as a feat. Blaster sorcerers not using an elemental bloodline will probably be the biggest user of this feat if they opt for fireball to be their blast of choice. I'm not sure this is enough to justify reducing it's rating from blue, as fireball does have a better area of effect than dragon's breath for long range blasting, but it might be worth mentioning. All in all though, good guide, it's nice to see all the metamagic feats put into a concise guide, and the information is pretty well set up and organized. Always nice to see new guides come up!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reach Spell: A caster with high Dex is a caster with reasonable AC, a decent Initiative and better than average Reflex save. A caster with high Dex can attack with all those nasty touch spells at 25+ feet away vs touch AC. IMO, thats not Red.

Also, in most cases where this metamagic is used its only a +1 to spell level, not +3.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lots of feedback to wade though, will be making some changes.

Quote:
Toppling should be Red - rubbish at anything but very low level, CMD's soar very quickly.

But, it's really good at low levels. Really good. I did mention that it loses its potency after the first few levels.

Quote:
Once you hit about 7th level, you can cast 1 hour/level spells the night before battle, and they are still running when you get up in the morning. At 12th level they will last a full day. This means you can bank magic from one day to the next, wearing buffs like cheep jewelry.

Never thought about casting a buff with the intent to make it last all the next day. Ok, you guys have convinced me to relook at extend.

Quote:
wait a minute... you're going out of your way to highlight the -2 to damage offered by Sickening Spell? Who even cares about that? The real value to it is setting up an opponent to fail a followup spell.

Lowering damage is one thing that makes sickening unique. Lowering saves is great as well. I'll add that in there.


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I think there are some fairly significant issues with some of these:

Disruptive Spell is really just not very good. First of all it is fairly limited, only really impacting on things which cast spells so often it wont be much use. Secondly it only works if the target is affected by the spell and casters have many ways to avoid or be immune to attacks. Thirdly if they are affected by whatever spell you use they probably don't need to worry about concentration checks on account of having been turned into a turtle, statue or lawn ornament.

Ectoplasmic Spell is actually a great metamagic feat to have available, if only as a Rod. Yes it is situational but incorporeal creatures are extremely annoying. You don't really care about the damage reduction but you do care that 50% of your others spells just flat out fail to affect the damn things. Shadows, Allips, Spectres, Wraoths and Ghosts can all be annoying. The level 2 Command Undead spell generally deals with them very effectively and having a lesser rod on hand is extremely useful. Marking it as red when it affects some of the critters most dangerous to a caster is a bad idea.

Elemental Spell is far from blue and is pretty much only of use to those wanting to blast with a little versatility. Wizards don't care because the admixture school exists, clerics and druids just use flame strike or blade barrier so it is pretty much limited to sorcerers. Even then I would only take it if I was looking to spell perfect a particular elemental effect spell. It is yellow at best given how situational it is.

Extend Spell as red has got to be a joke. It is one of the cornerstones of mid to high level prepared caster play. Cast all of your extended hour/level buff spells in the evening of the day before heading of to adventure then fill those slots with more useful adventuring spells. At higher levels you will use a few rods but it is still a decent investment and easily blue.

Flaring Spell needs a category somewhere below red to emphasise just how utterly terrible an option it is. The fact that it has a +1 level adjustment is just icing on the crap cake.

Intensified Spell needs a note that it is only really worth bothering with for Magus builds and those heavily investing into blasting, which is generally not worth it.

Empower Spell is very far from blue and again is only really on any value to those wanting to blast which is generally one of the least effective ways to play a caster. It requires an inordinate amount of class, feat, money and trait resources to make blasting ever with bothering with as direct damage does not scale well compared to HP pools. Given how situational it is this doesn't rate higher than a yellow.

Persistent Spell needs a category somewhere above purple to reflect just how ridiculously amazing it is. Perhaps some form of gold. This feat is probably the main reason why save or suck spell casters are able to dominate standard game threats so easily. Consider that if you target an enemies good save they probably have about a 60% chance of saving. You could use a spell 2 levels higher and make that 50% or you could apply persistent and shift it to 36%. However, if you target their weak save you are probably looking at around a 40% chance of making the initial save. Again a spell 2 levels higher shifts that to 30%. Applying persistent changes it to a 16% chance to save. This is the very best mid level metamagic feat for every offence orientated caster going and rating is as yellow is a travesty.

Sickening Spell however is terrible. Sickened is a weak condition and you can only attach it to direct damage and it only works if they fail their save. You could apply this minor debuff or you could apply persistent which makes it far more likely your spell will connect. Overall this is red.

Dazing Spell is like Persistent, it needs a category somewhere above purple. It singlehandedly turns an entire school of magic into some of the most powerful control in the game. Most of those spells also target reflex which is commonly a low save for many enemies. What's more is that you can also attach it to various direct damage conjuration spells and apply no SR control with a high likelihood of success. Attaching it to things which do ongoing damage is a death sentence. Dazing Blade Barrier is one of the most lethal things in the game. This is one of the most broken feats around.

Reach Spell is an amazing feats for clerics and oracles. Lots of their most powerful spells are touch or short range. Applying Reach to Plane Shift makes it a ranged touch save or be sent to the positive material plane. It also isn't bad for arcane casters to extend the range of things like baleful polymorph, dominate person, enervation, charm monster, summon monster etc which are all close range. It is a solid blue choice, maybe green. Certainly not red.

Quicken Spell as green has to be another joke. Yes it is expensive but there is a reason for that, improved action economy is the most potent effect available in the game. Sure you wont use it much before level 11-12 but it is pretty much required in mid to high level play. This is purple all the way with a note about when to take it.

Finally a note about feats. Spell Specialisation is generally pretty weak and only really of use to highly specialised blasters, every else should ignore it. It is pretty much the definition of a yellow/green choice. Conversely spell penetration/focus are absolute staple choices which you want to improve the chances of your spells landing. They are all entirely solid blue options which any spellcaster can benefit from.

Overall this looks like a guide heavily slanted towards blasting, one of the weakest options available to spellcasters. I think you need to either re-evaluate some of your ratings or make that clear at the beginning so as to avoid misleading people.


Typo:

Feet not feat just after the bit about a Sorcerer's full round action (5 feet that round).

Layout:

To some degree your choice of metamagic is shaped by your 'role' as a caster (Enchanter, Summoner, Blaster, Buffer, Healer and so I would colour code accordingly. Bouncing Spell for example would generally be more useful for a save of suck spell than a summoner.

Prepared vs Spontaneous Casting, this needs stressing more, some metamagics, e.g. Heighten Spell, are very useful for Spontaneous but their use is almost impossible to predict for a Prepared caster. Metamagics generally benefit Spontaneous casters more in my viewpoint (yes I'm sure others will disagree with that). They open up options for Spontaneous Casters whereas the prepared Caster actually loses some versatility by taking a number of similar Metamagic Spells (e.g. all those empowered intensified fireballs).

Class and level:

Wizards get bonus feats and a faster spell level progression, so their choice of metamagics is less restricted than say a Sorcerer who needs to focus according to their role more.

Full casters get higher spell levels and so the metamagics that add +2 levels for example, take longer for partial casters to access, a LOT longer.

Races:

Humans get an extra feat, this can mean they access some metamagic/feat combinations earlier.

Game Context:

Low level games won't see much of the metamagics that add +2 levels, etc - so some metamagics will get more use than others.

The feats:

Disruptive Spell: isn't that effective really in my experience as concentration checks become easier at higher levels. It also only lasts for 1 round.

Ectoplasmic Spell: situational yes, but can be a life saver for those occasions - generally a mid-higher level caster might find room for this.

Elemental Spell: Excellent for a Sorcerer that can change elemental damage type (e.g. Djinni Bloodline) as a 'third' type of damage can be picked for resistant creatures, so a spell like fireball could do say, Fire, Lighting (the bloodline ability) and cold or acid. It doesn't quite match an Admixture Evoker but the Sorcerer has more situational flexibility with their metamagics.

Enlarge Spell: Possibly useful for long-range spell attacks... Situational.

Extend Spell: Covered by previous casters - I swear by this.

Focussed Spell: A bit of a luxury yes, but icing on the cake perhaps?

Heighten Spell: Also has situational use for things such as light vs darkness spells and overcoming globe of invulnerability spells. Enchanters can use this to open up spell choices too as they then don't need a save or suck spell at every level.

Intensified Spell: Excellent Feat. Especially in a low level game with spells like burning hands.

Lingering Spell: A blast becomes an area control spell. For +1 Level? I'd go for that (with a Sorcerer).

Piercing Spell: Better bonus than both Spell Penetration Feats, stacks with them and only uses 1 feat. Again I'd go for that (with a Sorcerer).

Rime Spell: Agree.

Selective: Agree.

Silent Spell: Silence is a common anti-caster tactic. A good to have (again Sorcerer).

Still Spell: As above but grappling.

Toppling Spell: Agree.

Empower Spell: Good but takes a while to come online in a low level game.

Persistent Spell: One of the best metamagics for save related spells as has been said by previous posters.

Sickening/Dazing Spell: Yes, good de-buffs.

Thanatopic/Thredonic: Too expensive to qualify for, get a Rod.

Echoing Spell: Agreed.

Maximise Spell: Agreed.

Reach Spell: Tactically very useful, especially for a Spontaneous Caster.

Widen Spell: Agreed, too expensive.

Quicken Spell: High level play only.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok, made some major updates.

Reach, I misread and thought it was +3 to increase range by 1 increment. Obviously reading correctly made it much better.

Persistent, Winning me over with math is always good.

Blasting in general may be a bad way to play a caster, but it's a common way to play a caster. I factored this in to feats that increase damage.

I've added dual color coating for some feats and tried to explain why each time I used it.

Quote:
Also you rate Concussive Spell as red because it only effects sonic spells but is really good if thats your bag.... You then rate Rime as blue despite it only effecting cold? You need to be consistent with your ratings.

Cold is much different from sonic. One there are simply more spells to chose from. Secondly you can use admixture to change a spell to cold, you can not change it to sonic.

Concussive also takes up 2 spell slots high, vs 1 spell slot higher. Concussive should probably be rated a little higher due to the lowering of saves, something I didn't really account for prior to reading comments here, otherwise I like rime as a better debuff.

Last, I've actually seen builds that use rime. I don't think I've ever seen a sonic build at all.

Quote:
Quicken Spell as green has to be another joke.

No joke. Wrong certainly, but I'm not trying to troll. I was/am intending to do an item section to include rods and such. I think quicken is better using a rod most of the time. I just haven't had the time to get to it yet. Yeah quicken should probably be purple anyways...

Thanks for the help everyone!


PSusac wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:

I get what you're saying but some of those spells are 4th level and you can only cast them as a 7th level caster. Making them extended puts them out of your reach. This also increases the rest of the spell levels and limits what you can cast in a day.

Although this is still a viable strategy for some spells to get longer buffs, but it's dependent on knowing you're going into a dungeon or going to be getting attacked. The rod is still going to be a better option.

That's right. As I said,

"For example: A 7th level wizard can..."

My mistake. Was thinking Greater magic weapon was a 4th level spell to start but that's just for the cleric spell list.


Rylar wrote:
Quote:
Quicken Spell as green has to be another joke.

No joke. Wrong certainly, but I'm not trying to troll. I was/am intending to do an item section to include rods and such. I think quicken is better using a rod most of the time. I just haven't had the time to get to it yet. Yeah quicken should probably be purple anyways...

Thanks for the help everyone!

Quicken Rods are strong but they are also extremely expensive. If you expect to have much downtime then you are better off using the Staff of the Master Necromancer.

Where quicken really comes into its own though is with Spell Perfection. If you pick a level 5 spell (or level 6 with Magical Lineage) you are getting a freely quickened spell every round together with an extra with something like persistent or dazing. Persistent Hold Monster followed by Quickened Hold Monster is forcing 3 saves a round for the cost of two level 5 spell slots.

Quickened is basically a must at high level. For spontaneous casters I would want it by 12th as they can happily use it for low level buffs like an emergency mirror image. For prepared casters I want it by 13th, with level 7 spells you can afford to dedicate a couple level 5/6 slots to emergency spells. Everyone wants it by level 15.


On the issue of gear it is also worth directing sorcerers to the Robe of Arcane Heritage. It is especially useful to arcane bloodline sorcerers as they gain their capstone (removing the cast time delay on metamagicked spells) at level 16 rather than waiting to level 20.


Rylar wrote:

Ok, made some major updates.

Reach, I misread and thought it was +3 to increase range by 1 increment. Obviously reading correctly made it much better.

Persistent, Winning me over with math is always good.

Blasting in general may be a bad way to play a caster, but it's a common way to play a caster. I factored this in to feats that increase damage.

I've added dual color coating for some feats and tried to explain why each time I used it.

Quote:
Also you rate Concussive Spell as red because it only effects sonic spells but is really good if thats your bag.... You then rate Rime as blue despite it only effecting cold? You need to be consistent with your ratings.

Cold is much different from sonic. One there are simply more spells to chose from. Secondly you can use admixture to change a spell to cold, you can not change it to sonic.

Concussive also takes up 2 spell slots high, vs 1 spell slot higher. Concussive should probably be rated a little higher due to the lowering of saves, something I didn't really account for prior to reading comments here, otherwise I like rime as a better debuff.

Last, I've actually seen builds that use rime. I don't think I've ever seen a sonic build at all.

Quote:
Quicken Spell as green has to be another joke.

No joke. Wrong certainly, but I'm not trying to troll. I was/am intending to do an item section to include rods and such. I think quicken is better using a rod most of the time. I just haven't had the time to get to it yet. Yeah quicken should probably be purple anyways...

Thanks for the help everyone!

It is starting to shape up well. One thing I noticed on this read through was an issue with how empower works. Your example of empowered cure critical wounds says 6d8+CL where it should be (1.5)(4d8+CL).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quote:
Your example of empowered cure critical wounds says 6d8+CL where it should be (1.5)(4d8+CL).

You roll it and then calculate it or add 2 more d6 to the roll? I've seen it done both ways and thought that it was ruled we add the 2d6 before rolling. Also the + to caster level gets multiplied?

Strayshift, I'll add a "things to consider" section and list the things you mentioned. Thanks for the idea.


You never add dice. You perform the die roll, add the static modifier, and multiply the total by 1.5.

Relevant FAQ


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The argument I remember seeing was combining maximize and empower. If you do this do you get 1.5 time max or roll all dice and get half of the roll + the max. I'm thinking it's the later now (my group has always done 1.5 times max).


Example of maximized empowered fireball CL10 -> 60+.5(10d6)


stuart haffenden wrote:
I'd value Echoing higher personally. The lesser version may be 14k on a rod but 3 recastings of any 1st throu 3rd level spell is very cheap compared to 9k for one 3rd level pearl of power or 18K for a spontaneous version.

I agree that Echoing is underrated, but not for the same reasons. I would go so far as to list it as Purple/Red; if you have Spell Perfection you can get some incredible longevity out of getting two castings of your favorite (i.e. most used) spell by only burning one spell slot... before Spell Perfection I would agree on it being Red.


You forgot to mention universal School for wizards. I know it less than fantastic but it does a little for meta magic. And your trait names are wrong, the first i assume should have been magic linage and the second have another name in paizo books i suggest you put both in the guide.
But good work keep it up:)


Rime Spell: This one is amazing, I would rate it red usually, blue for Frostbite/Snowball builds and neon purple for Marid or Elemental Water bloodline sorcerers. Admixture Evokers cannot use this feat! They memorize the spell as fire descriptor and change it to cold descriptor when casting, so they can't memorize a fire descriptor spell with Rime Spell metamagic on it. A sorcerer with the Marid or Elemental Water bloodline has no such problem, as they switch descriptors and apply metamagic at casting.

The Heighten Spell rating is too low. This one is the prerequisite for Spontaneous Metafocus, an absolutely amazing feat for Sorcerers and Oracles. It also combos off Dazing Spell for crazy goodness. Forget Fireball, you want Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworks or Flaming Sphere or Acid Arrow. Multiple rounds of save of lose for one casting, yes please.

The guide seems to not be for any specific build and perhaps a section on who benefits from which metamagic would be helpful.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for those catches. can you give more detail on why heighten spell is amazing for sorcerer/oracle?


Rylar wrote:
Thanks for those catches. can you give more detail on why heighten spell is amazing for sorcerer/oracle?

It dramatically expands their options. A Sorcerer/Oracle has a limited number of spells available to them, and sometimes a lower level spell is the perfect spell for the situation, but at its default DC it won't have sufficient odds of sticking.

(That being said, even in this situation I'd argue Persistent is the better choice. Heightening by 1 spell level is almost never worthwhile, and if you were going to heighten by 2 or more spell levels you get a much greater bang for your buck out of forcing two saves.)


Specific builds are usually why you want Spontaneous Metafocus, but in those cases it really makes the difference. I totally agree with the green rating on this one, by the way.

Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter make it cheap to tack on metamagic, but a full round action to cast is bad, so this makes it all work. Magical Lineage (Plane Shift), Reach Spell, Heighten Spell, Spontaneous Metafocus (Plane Shift), Quicken Spell, Spell Perfection (Plane Shift) all work together beautifully, but you lose your move actions if you don't have Spontaneous Metafocus.

It basically comes into play when you go all in on a spell like some builds do. A Marid Sorcerer Rime Fireball build is going to want the move actions just like the Plane Shift Oracle did.

I wouldn't over-value Heighten Spell either, I'm pretty sure Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworks still only counts as Adjusted level -3 which is good enough to use but not as overwhelming as it would be if heighten overrode the dazing adjustment. So between being useful on its own, the interaction with dazing and being the prerequisite for both Spontaneous Metafocus and Preferred Spell I would rate this one blue. Purple is reserved for things like Dazing Spell and Quicken Spell, the obvious winners.

EDIT: Now I remember, the real reason you need Spontaneous Metafocus is surprise rounds. Without that feat your poor spontaneous caster can't use any metamagic in the surprise round (except for Quicken Spell, which simply uses a higher level slot for no gain.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's not a prereq for spontaneous metafocus though.


The more I think about it Spontaneous Metafocus is really more like Blue/Red than Green. Either you have traits and feats invested in a specific spell and you use it as your main weapon or you don't. If you do, you kind need it so your trick works in the surprise round. If you don't, what does it matter if you can't use metamagic in the surprise round?


Rylar wrote:
It's not a prereq for spontaneous metafocus though.

Good catch, it is not, it is simply the only one I have used to qualify, any metamagic feat will do.

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