Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to correct a misconception that has been bandied about here. Some have said that if the people simply ignore the Reputation system, it will cease to have any impact; this is not true. The mechanics of training ensure that there will absolutely be an impact for those with a low Reputation.
Higher tier training structures require that the settlement maintain a certain minimum Reputation, thus restricting access to those facilities. Those who choose a playstyle that results in a low Reputation character will find that they have effectively gimped their character by limiting them to only low-level training.
Higher end structures, like tier 2 and 3 training and crafting facilities, require the settlement have its minimum Reputation set to certain levels to function. So if you want your town to have awesome training and crafting facilities, you have to set a high minimum Reputation to enter the settlement. This means characters that do a lot of PvP outside of wars, feuds, and such will be forced to visit less developed settlements that are wretched hives of scum and villainy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I must have misunderstood this:
If Jack entered the game rolling hard and everyone around him asked "What was the point of that?", said "Don't do that or the best guilds won't accept you if you get the reputation as THAT GUY", or mocked him for seeking fights with characters that had no real ability to fight back, the players around Jack would be teaching him those are actions that get him nothing good so are a waste of his time.My apologies.
You can take college classes in what I was trying to explain in four paragraphs, so pardon the minor semantic similarities with my contrast example.
BIG PICTURE: Lots of people say they want this game to "be different", I agree toning it down from blood-crusted torment sounds more fun, and rather than depend on developers to do everything for us then hope for the best I am putting some of the alpha-waiting energy into finding what we can try to move in that same direction.
A litany of reasons nothing will ever work and it's all pointless is not in that direction. But since that's the go-to position, I won't waste energy trying to convince individuals of the merits of attempting feats that aren't guaranteed 100% success in advance.
I will however be sponsoring a Hulkageddon-but-bunnies type thing come EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Didn't Fidelis make one of their goals the setting up of festivals?
Some efforts like that could serve to siphon some of the competitive energy among the masses.
A River Kingdoms Olympics? The events may have to be abstracted, to make use of the tools available, but archery and some acrobatics could exist within the base skill system.
"No-one cares if you shot 100 farmers, from your camouflaged sniper-hole.
But if you won the Golden Arrow trophy, now that is an archer worthy of fame."
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I must have misunderstood this:
If Jack entered the game rolling hard and everyone around him asked "What was the point of that?", said "Don't do that or the best guilds won't accept you if you get the reputation as THAT GUY", or mocked him for seeking fights with characters that had no real ability to fight back, the players around Jack would be teaching him those are actions that get him nothing good so are a waste of his time.My apologies.You can take college classes in what I was trying to explain in four paragraphs, so pardon the minor semantic similarities with my contrast example.
BIG PICTURE: Lots of people say they want this game to "be different", I agree toning it down from blood-crusted torment sounds more fun, and rather than depend on developers to do everything for us then hope for the best I am putting some of the alpha-waiting energy into finding what we can try to move in that same direction.
A litany of reasons nothing will ever work and it's all pointless is not in that direction. But since that's the go-to position, I won't waste energy trying to convince individuals of the merits of attempting feats that aren't guaranteed 100% success in advance.
I will however be sponsoring a Hulkageddon-but-bunnies type thing come EE.
Think globally, act locally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Didn't Fidelis make one of their goals the setting up of festivals?
Some efforts like that could serve to siphon some of the competitive energy among the masses.
A River Kingdoms Olympics? The events may have to be abstracted, to make use of the tools available, but archery and some acrobatics could exist within the base skill system.
"No-one cares if you shot 100 farmers, from your camouflaged sniper-hole.
But if you won the Golden Arrow trophy, now that is an archer worthy of fame."
We did and still do. Everything/anything that can help build some community.
We are a bit off the beaten path, so it will be like a drive to the county fair to get there. ;)
If you're having a rap battle consider me entered.
I should like to see that... You have a way with words lady of Sin...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Didn't Fidelis make one of their goals the setting up of festivals?
Some efforts like that could serve to siphon some of the competitive energy among the masses.
A River Kingdoms Olympics? The events may have to be abstracted, to make use of the tools available, but archery and some acrobatics could exist within the base skill system.
"No-one cares if you shot 100 farmers, from your camouflaged sniper-hole.
But if you won the Golden Arrow trophy, now that is an archer worthy of fame."
Pax as a whole has talked about festivals in the past, though I don't think much has been said on the topic as of late. I'm sure that Golgotha will have appropriately-themed festivals of their own as well, probably involving Deadapults.
Speaking only for myself, I would love to see players come up with and realize their visions for activities like festivals and other silliness. I think that, especially with a competitive game, sometimes everyone needs reminding that it's just a game, and we play games to have fun.
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If you're having a rap battle consider me entered.We'll be spendin' most our lives,
Livin' in a ganker's paradise...
But thats no problem for a MurderHobo you see
Filling it back up to the brim is mere simplicity
At 4:30 in the morning I'm killin' drows
Jebediah offs the kobolds and Jacob scowls... fool
I've be killin and looting so long that
Even Gorum thinks that my mind is gone
I'm a man on the land and go into dungeons
Got Chaotic good on my sheet, barabzu beard on my chin
But if I make all my DC's, and you make all thine
We'll wrack up prestige like its 4099
We been spending most our lives
Living murder hobo's paradise
Commited arson once or twice
Living murder hobo's paradise
It's hard work to sacrifice
Peasants in a Hobos paradise
plus twelve to all my dice
rollin murder hobos paradise
A venture captain irked me somethin fierce last week
I cursed him out and gave a lot of cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he sees the DC of my spell
But I ain't never slain a newbie even if he deserved it
Hittin Level seven? Now we can fry him a bit
Smash the I-win buttons till the monster goes splat
And my party agrees this loot is pretty phat...fool
If you get arrested there's nothing to fear
We Haven't even take the paid taxes in 400 years.
But we ain't really Heroes, even if we put on airs
We're just moralthically impaired
There's no laws no, rights, no justicar
Not a single shred mercy
Like Dralneen in the bedroom
Its barbaric as can be
We been spending most our lives
Livin Murder hobo's paradise
Commited arson once or twice
Livin murder hobo's paradise
Nothing but sin and vice
Living murder hobo's paradise
We all fight we don't play nice
Livin murder hobo's paradise
Killin all the townsfolk, Its why they call him Cutter
Rais a level monday, Soon I'll raise another
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well I know I've got more hit points so I'll give you a head start
I'm the pious guy the little pallies wanna be like
Slayin foes day and night scorin' points for the afterlife
So don't be vain and don't be whiny
Or else, my brother, I might have to get medieval on your heinie
We been spending most our lives
Living murder hobo's paradise...
BigNorseWolf
+1 that is awesome, don't know if you came up with it or copied and pasted, but it was both topical and entertaining.
To add to the conversation: The community we have now is not the community we will have when OE happens, let alone when the F2P model starts up.
If like minded people want to keep an area free of gankers then the best solution I see would be to found a kingdom and get organized. That way, if and when (because it WILL happen to everyone), murder hobos come to your land and take your stuff? you will at least have like minded players that may be within range to go hunt them down and hopefully get it back for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think people under-estimate the value of culture in these sort of situations. Yes mechanics have to be in place to reinforce the kind of culture you want in the game BUT all the mechanics in the world are worthless if the culture that develops is different then what is desired. I've seen that happen in games. The two have to work in concert to get the result you desire.
I've also seen first-hand what sort of inertia an initial culture established by a relatively small group can have in setting the tone going forward... even through vast expansions. Vast expansions CAN have a highly disruptive result that permanently erases whatever initial culture was established but that's not a hard and fast rule and it is definately the case that the culture CAN be maintained through that. I've seen that first hand in a commercial MUD that had a player base that went from an average of 50 or so players online at a time to an average of 2K-3K players online at a time within the course of a couple months, where the initial culture was determinative of what was transfered to the expanded player base. It was disruptive and it did take a heckuva alot of effort from the Developers, GM's customer service people AND existing players to make that happen but it DID happen, so it definately can be done.
One shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that culture will mold the thinking of every single player...it won't. However, it doesn't need to do so....it just needs to have an effect on enough players that it becomes representative of the average experience of new players to the game. One also shouldn't expect culture to have any effect on the true griefers...it won't.... they specificaly are playing a different game from everyone else and are setting out to purposefully ruin everyones play experience. Those are for the GM's/Developers to handle.
However there will be alot of players coming in NOT with some purposefull predetermined intention to be griefers. They'll come in NOT being sure exactly how one plays the game, nor what to expect of the play experience...and MANY of these players will adapt thier play to what they see around them and how they PERCIVE others playing the game and being "successfull" in it...and it is these players that culture can have a very large effect on. If these players learn that the way to "play the game" involves negative behavior then it'll swamp the ability of the GM's and the mechanics to overcome that. THAT is what, I think, Proxima was getting at.
I, for one, am interested in hearing from Proxima and others more details on what cultural norms we should try to be promoting and which ones we should be discouraging. I know this may get a little heated....and obviously we can't define a hard and fast rule on what is considered "acceptable" for all situations... however, I think it's helpfull to at least try to get a better idea on some of the specifics about what the community at large would consider desirable and undesirable play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to hear more about these festivals from Pax.
One example I came up with was an alternative Measuring Tape.
Instead of the EVE-style killboard measuring either kills or value lost, it's a company Influence board (if that information was visible to everyone in-game). There will be a measurable number for lifetime and each maintenance cycle or week or whatever; and for people who are affirmed by measuring tapes, or just enjoy friendly competition and bragging rights, or could there even be prizes?, there's your metric.
It's value is in directly expanding the power and range of potential actions for your company so it's not a contrivance at all. In another way, it's a competition to see who can play the game as developers intended the hardest.
There's also Hulkageddon-But-Bunnies, about which I'm purposely not giving out any information more specific than it's operational title.
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This is a good topic because it shines the spotlight where it should be. That is, on "order." Or, that's what I believe it is. I believe that Murder Sim is really a more anarchy type world, more like the wild (where I take what you have if I want to because I am stronger.) It makes for some intense gaming, but nothing cerebral ever gets done.
Unfortunately, if we close our eyes and start imagining a perfect MMO world where ideas are passed down to new players and everyone listens... we can then pause and introduce bad seeds. Bad seeds and their friends and watch how everything changes. It will then bring bad out of everyone.
Society is a very tight structure in reality and it keeps a lot of people in check because they fear being 'out' of it. Nobody wants to be a social outcast because it means you can't do anything. The problem with this is that it'll never be that way in a game because there is no higher control UNLESS we want to offer the devs or some other people we trust to be arbiters of what is right and what is wrong. If not, if everything is equal as sandbox people want, it will always fall to chaos. It's kind of funny that way.
However, you can easily make it more realistic by punishing people for killing. Basically, in an ideal world, Kingdom A and Kingdom B would not want player C murdering on their soil because they would understand it's actually affecting their growth. This is a fact, too, but in most games they cannot be bothered to go out policing their land.
So, what... the ability to create NPC patrols? Extremely harsh penalties for murder? Huge gains for killing a known murderer?
I do want murder. I think it's necessary, especially in the wild, but I don't think if you are out, say, bringing in your sheep (heh) that you should be like OGOD SOMEONE IS GONNA KILL ME because that's not realistic. And that 'feel' really affects the game as a whole. It becomes really like a horror movie. It should be more like ono, so and so got killed out there... everyone is on the look out... we got the guy now, go back to normal life.
The problem with murder in a level based game is that its far too easy for a level 20 to mow through level 5's with total impunity and then just die once when the level 20s finally show up to put an end to it. There's no game consequences or any chance of the level 5s fighting back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I've found is hard-core griefers like to kill... they don't like to die. You see those people throwing keyboards and smashing things when they die? That's a griefer who just got his throat slit. They dish it out, but can't handle taking it. I personally think that is a personality trait (flaw?) that led them to become what they are.
At any rate, best defense you have: Learn to kill, and practice often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with murder in a level based game is that its far too easy for a level 20 to mow through level 5's with total impunity and then just die once when the level 20s finally show up to put an end to it. There's no game consequences or any chance of the level 5s fighting back.
Luckily, due to the way PfO is being made, this isn't something we'll ever have to worry about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...its far too easy for a level 20 to mow through level 5's with total impunity...
We can rely, at least for now, on Ryan's assurances that their design backs the idea of new players being at least to escape--if desired--from more-advanced characters. The power-curve is intended to prove flatter than any of us has experienced elsewhere; we'll see how well that proves out in practice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Proxima and GrumpyMel
We need to start in on making these festivals a thing, establishing our culture as it were.
@All
An important thing is, whatever mechanics are emplaced this will always be an Open PvP world. This means people will join, level up, and leave the newb area. And somewhere along the road they will commit their first pk. When this happens we, as in the "good culture" need to be there to jump on em, not with weapons, but with words. At that moment we need to be able to clearly and concisely say "That PK was bad because *Reasons*. This is how things are *List*. Now that you know about it, get yourself informed more of the world. You are Warned." Not exactly that, but the point remains. When their first pk occurs we need to tell them that open PvP world doesn't mean open-season, and what the ramifications are of randomly killing people. How many people want the TEO on their specific tail-end at the end of day one huh?
I would like to promote the idea of a "Collesium" or arena of some sort being built into NPC settlements which go through PvP mechanics and at the same time explain the way things are in PfO, and why you can't go round killing everybody. That way they A) learn the hows B) learn the whys and C) learn the whens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A 'Thunderdome' in the centre of town would be a good idea, for players to be able to practice their skills in a controlled environment, secure in the knowledge that anyone else in there has explicitly signed up for the same, and it won't lead to some endless tit-for-tat vendetta.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think you are right about this.
Care to extrapolate, or at least say which part of his post you don't agree with?
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On the other topic, there's a great book called the Inner Sea World Guide. In it there's a section on the calendar which includes a whole lot of different holidays and other important dates.
Some of my favorites after a quick browse:
February 2nd, Merrymead: the coming of spring is commemorated with the distribution of the last of the previous season's alcohol (could have a Beer Festival?)
July 3rd, Archerfeast: a festival dedicated to Old One Eye (Erastil) with archery competitions, livestock trading/competitions, and the courtship of eligible women.
August 16th, Armasse: Iomedaean celebration where commoners are given free lessons in combat and learn from history.
November 18th, Evoking Day: A day of fireworks displays and feats of magical prowess, including magic duels.
November 23rd, Seven Veils: Celebration of brotherhood between civilized races marked by interracial masquerade balls. (looking at you TSV!)
And of course we can celebrate Earthly holidays as well, or make up some of our own to commemorate in-game events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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November 18th, Evoking Day: A day of fireworks displays and feats of magical prowess, including magic duels.
November 23rd, Seven Veils: Celebration of brotherhood between civilized races marked by interracial masquerade balls. (looking at you TSV!)
Whoo hoo! Looks like my birthday week will just be one big party! (As it should be.)
I don't think you are right about this.Care to extrapolate, or at least say which part of his post you don't agree with?
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Sure.
I don't think you are right about griefers getting the least upset about dying.
I don't think you are right about griefers being the ones that throw their keyboards in anger.I think the typical griefer tend to be more in control of their own emotions than the average joe.
I think most of them, knows what ticks people off and they get their enjoyment from this.That is the game they are playing.
They are usually not playing for the same reasons as you, so death in the game will have little meaning to them.
Usually, their accounts have little meaning to them also.I think it is a common mistake, to try and downplay them, as you did.
If you recognize someone as a griefer, there is usually not much to do.
You can report, ignore, turn around and leave (don't go back for your corpse 50 times)...
If you respond to them, especially in chat, you are playing their game.I could be wrong though, and all griefers are just 13 year old kids with hormones going crazy.
Lettus go a bit deeper on this.
I think griefing is an attention ploy. They don't want to lose or die, of course, but mainly what they want to do is disrupt what you are doing.
There are levels, but the most hardcore ones are actually decent players. As for fighting griefers, yeah it's generally not a good idea because they have many tricks. Also, I imagine the world won't be all combat characters and I think griefers love to mess with people who are, say, harvesting or gathering.
That being said, one more point... having equality of strength despite level can also be bad. Imagine three grief guys with their fairly new accounts teaming up to gank lvl 20s. That's not good.
It's a very complex issue that requires discretion. It will never be completely out the game, but a little bit makes it similar to life. What you don't want is for it to take over the culture of a game and become grief vs not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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November 23rd, Seven Veils: Celebration of brotherhood between civilized races marked by interracial masquerade balls. (looking at you TSV!)
And we're looking right back, lol
Yeah, I expect that will be a pretty important holiday in Phaeros. Civilization is a grand goal, and a very worthy cause for celebration :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lettus go a bit deeper on this.
I think griefing is an attention ploy. They don't want to lose or die, of course, but mainly what they want to do is disrupt what you are doing.
When I was playing ArcticMUD, there were two players who befriended me and took me to an out-of-the-way spot to take out a fairly challenging mob for the three of us. We stopped just outside the room and talked over the strategy real quick, then as soon as we entered the room, they started attacking me instead. They obviously knew I didn't have anything worth taking. They weren't trying to disrupt what I was doing - in fact they disrupted what they might have been doing just to do it. They're only purpose was to cause distress. I think Ryan's right when he says it's a power fantasy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I've found is hard-core griefers like to kill... they don't like to die. You see those people throwing keyboards and smashing things when they die? That's a griefer who just got his throat slit. They dish it out, but can't handle taking it. I personally think that is a personality trait (flaw?) that led them to become what they are.
At any rate, best defense you have: Learn to kill, and practice often.
Those people, knowingly or not, have a script in mind that plays out a certain way and has a certain ending. They play a role, another person usually unwillingly plays a role, and when the end of the script is reached there's a release brain juice; part of which is dopamine which is our body's way of telling us "that was cool. do that again". Most of human life we're (knowingly or not) searching for the next dopamine release. (Serotonin and dopamine, literally the only two things you enjoy)
What we want basically is to break up the plot of that script. They play the role but the movie doesn't end how they think, more often than not, over and over again. There is usually an even stronger push to get their sought after ending, maybe a rage or an even bigger lash out, but eventually they learn the script doesn't work in that place and either adapt or leave.
Things like festivals or just paying attention and giving importance to other things are in our sphere of influence not GWs, and can change the props and the scenery and interfere with that script. The best things give their own surges of dopamine and can functionally fill the purpose of that old script that doesn't work anymore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think you are right about this.Care to extrapolate, or at least say which part of his post you don't agree with?
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If you recognize someone as a griefer, there is usually not much to do.
You can report, ignore, turn around and leave (don't go back for your corpse 50 times)...
If you respond to them, especially in chat, you are playing their game.
This is the absolute best way to deal with griefers. They crave the attention their actions bring about. Don't give them attention, and they lose interest. The worst thing to do is rage at them, threaten them, or complain about them in chat because it just fuels the griefing more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Proxima
I do agree with you. At the same time I agree with others that part of the solution is taking responsibility and being pro active in defense and sometimes offence vs. people that act badly.
So... In addition to GW's reputation system, we can have:
-a friendly culture with player run activities.
-a stern (not crazy though) culture of oversight and education of our newer people.
-personal responsibility to not be easy targets and reinforce how easy "bad play" is.
-An understanding that being robbed, feuded, war decced, faction foiled, etc... (if done in a sportsmanlike way) is part of "The Game as intended". <--- One of the toughest attitudes to develop.
So far I see some heavy dips into the Cat Herding skill tree. ;)
What else?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would guess one aspect that might help is that you don't have teleport but rather walk. I don't know how respawn points will be handled.
I hope you can at least respawn in your own settlement. I also hope as settlement leader that you can disallow someone to respawn in your own settlement to avoid griefers. Why do I think this can play a large role?
Take the Emerald Spire. I reckon it will take approx. 5 minutes to move from the settlement V to the entrance of the Emerald Spire.
How do I get to this number? I think I remember that a dev said one hex = 450m - please someone correct me if this is wrong. Assuming a jogging speed which is around 10km / hour (which more or less was the speed I would guess shown in videos so far) you take approximate 2 1/2 minute to fully cross a single hex.
So if the griefer respawns in V and likes to grief players coming from Thornkeep, then he has a large advantage. It takes him maybe 5 minutes to get 'into position' while someone from Thornkeep takes 25 minutes travel - only to be mowed down before entering or coming out).
Take it the other way round - the griefer comes from Thornkeep and the explorer comes from V and the griefer might be discouraged quickly if he gets killed and has to come back all the way.
I don't know yet how it will work out - the game hasn't started. There are for example also some NPC settlements not open for the landrush nearby the Emerald Spire.
But the important part I want to say is - real time traveling could make certain places non-attractive for griefers - if we can prevent them from spawning close by.
I use the Emerald Spire only as example - this should be generic that griefing will be less attractive the further you need to move before you can grief.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Proxima
I do agree with you. At the same time I agree with others that part of the solution is taking responsibility and being pro active in defense and sometimes offence vs. people that act badly. *examples*
Which are things that are likely to break up that metaphorical script so we're in agreement!
[If] They crave the attention their actions bring about. Don't give them attention, and they lose interest. The worst thing to do is rage at them, threaten them, or complain about them in chat because it just fuels the griefing more.
Actually a high amount of times they will try harder and harder to reach the outcome they were expecting, until they see a less resistant path to that outcome.
It's definitely a good first step denying their preferred situation, even if that is getting punished or hated or something we'd usually chalk up as a negative, but it's not the full package of how to establish what we want. Everybody plays games for positive jolts of good feelings (us too) so when we take away that source they need to be picked up and dropped on their head at a new source that is acceptable to us. Even if it is road banditry.