What are some awesome NON-combat optimized builds?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Dark Archive

The concept of optimized builds not being good outside combat came up in another thread, and it has made me curious.

First, is this true?

Second, what would some great builds look like if they were "optimized" for all-around play?


This depends heavily what you play. Certain seasons of Pathfinder Society are very friendly to non-optimized builds.

Bards are, almost by definition, great all-rounders.

Given my love of, and the challenge in optimizing, monks: they can be great "non-optimized" characters. Good insight and good defenses mean that they can stick around long enough in all events to do their non-optimized things.

A themed spellcaster that purposefully picks all his/her spells to be not (directly) combat orientated. An illusionist is an easy example, but you could also go with a plant theme, or a architect caster who focuses all his spells on building things.


I don't have the full build but I recently had a human paladin with the following feats: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus: Diplomacy. At 1st level the party's first adventure was to guard a body. 3 custom pixies with a necromantic bent arrived and claimed the corpse for a proper, natural burial. Even though Diplomacy isn't a combat skill and the fight had already begun the PC rolled anyway and scored a natural 20.

He did so well the fey refused to attack him. He fought defensively and the fey were further impressed. After this adventure wrapped they ran into similar pixies twice more and this paladin continued using Diplomacy with terrific results. They eventually imbued him with a fey mark allowing the paladin to call on them in the wilds.

This guy, w/out smite, didn't do much damage at all in combat, but he was tons of fun to have at the table.

Liberty's Edge

You get back to the problem that spells can do anything, so yes, an optimized wizard / cleric / sorcerer / whatever can be very good outside of combat.


As far as non-optimized characters, dump all your mental stats. Speak IC using only the words "Hoe" and "Door"

Scarab Sages

Jason Beardsley wrote:

The concept of optimized builds not being good outside combat came up in another thread, and it has made me curious.

First, is this true?

Second, what would some great builds look like if they were "optimized" for all-around play?

Optimization is not combat specific. It does not even mean highly focused on one task (that would be min/max).

Dariamus is optimized to be effective in the widest possible set of circumstances.


First, from reading your post, I would change your subject to NON-combat optimized builds.

Second, I've seen entire groups of con-men that managed to sneak, bluff, bargain their way through (or around) most encounters. Then they still had nearly all there resources left on the few occasions they really did have to fight. I do not have build details anymore. But everyone had stealth, bluff, disguise, sense motive, and diplomacy. This group was before the teamwork feats were around, but now they would be ideal.
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Dariamus wrote:

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Optimization is not combat specific. It does not even mean highly focused on one task (that would be min/max)...

Those are your definitions. Others have differing definitions. Some are almost exactly the opposite of what you have.

That is one of the main reasons I wish people did not use such ill defined and emotionally charged phrases.


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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Dariamus wrote:

...

Optimization is not combat specific. It does not even mean highly focused on one task (that would be min/max)...

Those are your definitions. Others have differing definitions. Some are almost exactly the opposite of what you have.

That is one of the main reasons I wish people did not use such ill defined and emotionally charged phrases.

"Optimization" does have a standard meaning in English, and that meaning has nothing to do with combat. (Min/max does not have a standard meaning, but the related term "minimax" does, and it doesn't even mean "highly focused on one task.")

I can easily optimize a character (who I shall name Nodwick) for maximum carrying capacity, which is not particularly useful in combat and only marginally useful out of combat.

I could also optimize a character for maximum number of different spells castable per day, which would be very useful both in or out of combat.

Dark Archive

I've changed the title to include NON-combat optimized, as that was my intent.

At my table, my DM lets me try out different combat optimized builds. Though they do great in combat, I get very bored with it. Winning all the time kinda takes the fun out of it, first of all. And outside combat, he's pretty boring as well, since he has no real skill outside of "winning combat".

Maybe I will try an illusionist build next.. I like playing wizards, and it's not a wizard I've tried yet.


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Jason Beardsley wrote:


Maybe I will try an illusionist build next.. I like playing wizards, and it's not a wizard I've tried yet.

A character optimized for illusion magic is both powerful and flexible in the hands of a player with imagination and a cooperative GM. Like a summoner, the spells of an illusionist are not specifically defined and a single spell can be responsive to lots of different situations.


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Jason Beardsley wrote:

I've changed the title to include NON-combat optimized, as that was my intent.

At my table, my DM lets me try out different combat optimized builds. Though they do great in combat, I get very bored with it. Winning all the time kinda takes the fun out of it, first of all. And outside combat, he's pretty boring as well, since he has no real skill outside of "winning combat".

Maybe I will try an illusionist build next.. I like playing wizards, and it's not a wizard I've tried yet.

I've always had the most fun with characters whose concepts I found interesting. I played a Suli Summoner who was the party Crafter. Hardly optimized (outside of the racial bonus to CHA, but with a penalty to INT) but I had a very interesting back story and came up with little mannarisms for him. I RPed my responses to PCs and NPCs in and out of combat and had a blast. The DM did the voice of my eidolon which added more color and humor.

Another example from Forgotten Realms was a priest of Kelemvor. Fantastic against the undead - crud against most other things. But he had Brew Potion (or whatever the equivalent was in that edition) so he could still contribute in certain ways.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you have a fun concept you can usually finesse the mechanics to match what you want to play. It sounds like you have a pretty openminded GM (which is awesome) so I'm sure he/she would be excited to see how much interest and thought you're putting in to his/her game. With the Advance Class Guide (and it's Archmage) coming out you should really be able to have some fun. It *is* a game and you should have fun playing it.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Dariamus wrote:

...

Optimization is not combat specific. It does not even mean highly focused on one task (that would be min/max)...

Those are your definitions. Others have differing definitions. Some are almost exactly the opposite of what you have.

That is one of the main reasons I wish people did not use such ill defined and emotionally charged phrases.

"Optimization" does have a standard meaning in English, and that meaning has nothing to do with combat. (Min/max does not have a standard meaning, but the related term "minimax" does, and it doesn't even mean "highly focused on one task.") ...

Optimization does have a standard meaning in the English language. However, for the people in this hobby and more specifically in these forums, it has become an item of field jargon.

Like the jargon in every other field it may be only slightly related to the general everyday language meaning of the word. If that field has decided on a more-or-less precise meaning and most everyone in the field uses it that way, it is useful.

Some fields like hard science, economics, medicine, and law have such rigorous jargon that has a definite meaning and is useful.
Consider the word 'aspirate.' There was a time when the word meant approximately pronunciation with a breathy exhalation. Now it is almost only known by its meaning as medical jargon. Basically to use suction to draw fluid from a wound or cavity.

However, some fields (fishing, industry, RPG enthusiasts) have much more vague jargon where it actually impedes understanding rather than assists.
Consider 'organic' foods. Organic has already had a long established meaning for a very long time. It isn't even close to what people mean when the call a food item organic. In fact there are several different possible meanings for organic even when related to food. Such that labeling a food organic has virtually no meaning other than 'we think it is healthier.' There was a talking head show a couple years ago where the pundits were practically screaming at each other about the perceived benefits of organic vegetables. It was over 20 minutes into the argument before it was realized that they both had differing (very nearly contradictory) definitions of organic foods.

Many/most of the labels used on these boards are similar vague jargon. Really think about munchkin, power gamer, optimizer, minmaxer, role player, roll player, gamer, sandbox, railroad, support, effective, gimped, etc... When you use any of these terms do you mean what is in Websters dictionary. I doubt it.
If you ask 20 people what is meant by any of the above, I would not be surprised if you get 10 different definitions for each. Many of those definitions will be very nearly at opposite ends of the spectrum.


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Illusion magic makes for some AWESOME in-combat and out-of-combat casting. Make sure to take the metamagics though that allow you to use mind affect abilities on undead.

Oh! And REAL BIG TIP! INVEST IN DISGUISE SKILL. The best way to use your illusions to full effect, diguise your self as someone else, then use your illusions on top of that to either:

1) disguise yourself again as the guy creating a double layered disguise

2) Disguise yourself as someone/something else. This is useful since things with True Seeing tend to take what they see at face value (tend to assume true seeing is showing the "true" you, which is actually not you due to your disgue skill).

3) Veiled Illusionist prestige class is really fun if you like glamour illusions over Shadow spells.

Dark Archive

@Orfamay exactly how are those terms emotionally charged? The only place and times I have ever once heard those words said in the same vein as 'emotionally charged' is here on these boards. I've been to a lot of gaming stores and various locales all across the US for the past fifteen years and yet here on these forums (and if it was on the wizards forums I missed it) is where people claim the terms are emotionally charged. What gives? Moreover, the terms have been used on these forums plenty of times without any hint of emotional baggage involved.

I am starting to think that the only people with an emotional investment in those words are the handful here who've claimed the terms hold meaning to them beyond what it does to everyone else (at least by appearances).

@Shadowcat Good but without being optimized for it, capable of being overshadowed by people who actually focused on being good outside of combat. There is also the very real issue of how many spells is it worth casting for out of combat purposes per day for any caster not optimized to be good outside of combat? This even applies to enchanters and illusionists who are the better 'switch hitters' of the casting classes in this regard (oh and witches, but they can hex for free so don't count them).


Currently I have a character specifically optimized for his life in courtly politics. He has a decent enough ability to contribute to combat due to being a caster, but where he really shines is the sky high skill bonuses you can pump out with relatively cheap items. Living Garments, Circlet of Persuasion and Hat of Disguise mean that his disguise, diplomacy, and bluff are all absurdly high and can only really be beat by a similarly optimized courtier (it's assumed that the GM has made most really powerful political enemies similarly optimized).

Liberty's Edge

Look up the Guide to Paragon Surge, and weep.


Dark Immortal wrote:
@Orfamay exactly how are those terms emotionally charged? The only place and times I have ever once heard those words said in the same vein as 'emotionally charged' is here on these boards. I've been to a lot of gaming stores and various locales all across the US for the past fifteen years and yet here on these forums (and if it was on the wizards forums I missed it) is where people claim the terms are emotionally charged. What gives? Moreover, the terms have been used on these forums plenty of times without any hint of emotional baggage involved...

I believe it was me that said it not Orfamay. That particular term is sometimes emotionally charged on these forums*, because of the definition a particular person has for it. Some people use optimize in a derogatory fashion as equivalent to roll player, munchkin, the derogatory version of power gamer, the derogatory version of minmaxer, etc... Whatever just this side of cheating, obviously not the way the game was intended to be played, and they certainly don't want them at their table. For those people it is a flat out insult. I would say an intentional insult is fairly emotionally charged.

Yes, for those people that have a different definition of the term it is not necessarily emotionally charged. Though even a few of those it is emotionally charge on the positive side.

* I agree that it is almost exclusively emotionally charged when used on these forums. I have occasionally heard it used as an insult at an in-person game, but it is rare.


Combat is a big part of the game. There is little if any need to ignore it for non combat roles, which can easily be fullfilled with a relatively small investment.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Combat is a big part of the game. There is little if any need to ignore it for non combat roles, which can easily be fullfilled with a relatively small investment.

I'm not saying I want to ignore it. I am saying I want to be good at stuff other than, and not exclusively, combat. I understand that being good at combat is necessary, but I don't want that to be my defining feature.


Well the Investigator is actually pretty useful for non-combat optimization... They are pretty much the masters of skills, have extracts to help with stuff skills alone cannot solve, and are decent enough in combat.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Combat is a big part of the game. There is little if any need to ignore it for non combat roles, which can easily be fullfilled with a relatively small investment.

Well, it depends on how much you want to optimize.

If you are literally optimizing for damage output, for example, you may well sink all your mental stats to 7. With effectively no skill points, and a negative modifier on almost all skills, you're not going to be largely ineffective at any social challenge.

So "a relatively small investment" is still an investment. Part of the optimization challenge is knowing what to optimize for (optimizing for DPR is not the same as optimizing for combat effectiveness) and part is knowing when to stop optimizing (e.g. when you want merely to "satisfice").


I'm a healer. Really, I'm not that strong in combat, but the party loves how I can keep them standing and supply them with just the right potion for the occasion. Click me for my stats.


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Jason Beardsley wrote:


I'm not saying I want to ignore it. I am saying I want to be good at stuff other than, and not exclusively, combat. I understand that being good at combat is necessary, but I don't want that to be my defining feature.

Druid

Str 7 Dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 19 cha 7

Human- Toughness
1st- Fast learner

5th: natural spell

Traits: vagabond child and highlander (for disable device and stealth as class skills)

Track, face, sneak, trap, spot, ... does just about everything but face and knowledge monkey (and you can probably get it to do one more of those with the right feats) and has Wildshape: the ultimate multitool for problem solving.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nives Burer is an excellent example of an optimized spy.


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381. Min/Max for combat=good. Min/Max for accounting=bad.


Many prestige classes do this well. The Master Spy is a terror in social situations and the Sleepless Detective laughs through mystery campaigns.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

First, from reading your post, I would change your subject to NON-combat optimized builds.

Second, I've seen entire groups of con-men that managed to sneak, bluff, bargain their way through (or around) most encounters. Then they still had nearly all there resources left on the few occasions they really did have to fight. I do not have build details anymore. But everyone had stealth, bluff, disguise, sense motive, and diplomacy. This group was before the teamwork feats were around, but now they would be ideal.
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Dariamus wrote:

...

Optimization is not combat specific. It does not even mean highly focused on one task (that would be min/max)...

Those are your definitions. Others have differing definitions. Some are almost exactly the opposite of what you have.

That is one of the main reasons I wish people did not use such ill defined and emotionally charged phrases.

Can you think of any other way to be the OP of a multi-hundred post thread?

Dark Archive

All some very good ideas, everyone! It looks like Druid could be a good solo build... With that in mind: Which builds could be used for solo play? "Optimized" to be the whole party?


The word "optimized" is now emotionally charged?


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Jason Beardsley wrote:

The concept of optimized builds not being good outside combat came up in another thread, and it has made me curious.

First, is this true?

Second, what would some great builds look like if they were "optimized" for all-around play?

In my campaign, the inquisitors for the Templar organization in one of the companies is pretty heavily optimized for reading people and seeing through lies, functioning as diplomats and emissaries, and occasionally as spies.

Psionic Inquisitors:
Psionic Inquisitor CR 1 (400 XP)
N Medium humanoid (human) psion (mind bender) 2; Init +0; Perception +2; AC 13, touch 10, flat 13 (+3 armor); Hp 15 (2d6+8); Fort +1, Ref +0, Will +4; Melee none; Ranged none; Psionic Powers Known (ML 2) 1st – demoralize (DC 15), empathic connection (DC 15), slumber (DC 15); Talents – conceal thoughts, detect psionics, empathy, mind link, mind thrust (1d6, DC 15), missive, sense poison, unearthly terror (DC 15); PP 10; Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 12; BAB +1, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats Inquisitor, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Body; Skills Autohypnosis +5, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (History) +8, Knowledge (Nobility) +8, Knowledge (Planes) +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +8; SQ Impose Will (+1 ML on charm and compulsion powers, mindlink on targets); Equipment cleric's vestments, mask, mwk studded leather armor, 1st level crawling tattoo x4, Templar signet ring (nonmagical)

Inquisitors are prized by those they serve and feared by those who would hold precious secrets. These men and women use their formidable psychic powers to augment their skills at social manipulation. They are dangerous spies, interrogators, and occasionally assassins. The most common feature of the inquisitors are their featureless masks they wear, distinguished only by subtle designs or colors that indicate rank or order. Most traveling abroad do so on a horse provided by the Templar organization.

Inquisitor Psicrystals
Inquisitors keep a psicrystal with a sympathetic personality (+3 sense motive) that grants the Alertness feat (+2 Perception and Sense Motive). These psicrystals serve as spies and assistants during their interrogations. A common practice amongst inquisitors is to arrange for their psicrystal to be stored amongst the equipment of their quarry to collect information that is then transferred across a mind-link directly to the inquisitor.

Psicrystal Statistics CR – (Included with master)
N Diminuitive construct; sighted 40 ft., Perception +4;
AC 16, touch 16, flat 14 (+2 dex, +4 size); Hp 7; Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +0; Immune construct traits, Defensive Qualities hardness 8; Speed 30 ft., climb 20 ft.; Space 1 ft., Reach 0 ft.; Str 1, Dex 15, Con –, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10; Feats Skill Focus (Stealth); Skills Climb +10*, Perception +6, Stealth +21; SQ Alertness, improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link

With a mixture of powers and feats they can take 10 for a total of DC 33 to lie to them, and by using their psionic powers to pick up the ebbs of emotions and such. By taking 10 an inquisitor can memorize pages of text and symbols by merely viewing them, at which point they can write down copies of said text later if needed and their crystals can do this too. When utilizing their powers they have up to a +17 Bluff and +8 Diplomacy. They can also detect poisons, charm, and so forth.

While generally lacking in combat potential they can indeed be dangerous in their own ways, particularly indirectly.

Most of my PCs
Almost all of my PCs fall into this category as well. When I'm building them I build for general adventuring, which means I'm not usually aware of what sorts of foes or challenges we will encounter, and I pay heed to things like environmental effects, surviving in the wilderness, and even being able to cover day to day expenses when not actively adventuring (since I tend to think of my PCs as people with lives).

For example, many of my PCs drop a few ranks into skills such as Disable Device for the ability to open locks, a few into Linguistics to learn additional languages and give them a chance to attempt to decipher something, and so forth.

One example of a recent PC I put together can be found here: Maraketh Sancti for a friend's vampire game (using a seriously toned down template that I use for vampires in my games). She's what you might call optimized for noncombat encounters.


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You can optimize for just a specific skill.

For example with Stealth:

Goblin Wizard

18 DEX
+4 DEX Goblin
+6 Stealth from stats (22 Dex)
+4 Stealth Goblin
+4 Stealth Small
+1 Stealth (Highlander Trait, +2 in hills/mountains)
+2 Stealth (Color Thief Goblin Trait)
+1 Stealth from Rank
+3 Stealth from Class Skill (granted via Highlander)
+3 Stealth House Centipede Familiar (Wizard)
+3 Stealth Skill Focus (Stealth)

Total of +31 I think at first level.

Uh you could also start at young, dunno about the rules for starting like that.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/young- characters

Biggest thing is +2 to Dex, and the size category drop, you miss out on the house centipede as you can't take real classes and one trait but it's still beneficial cause of the extra +4 to stealth from being tiny.

Sovereign Court

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One of the character's I've been wanting to play is basically an optimized build for knowledge. He's an android bard with the archivist archetype (GM permission, naturally) and his backstory is that he was built to be a living encyclopaedia. Depending on character creation rules, he can start play with as many as a dozen languages known.


Lawrence DuBois wrote:
One of the character's I've been wanting to play is basically an optimized build for knowledge. He's an android bard with the archivist archetype (GM permission, naturally) and his backstory is that he was built to be a living encyclopaedia. Depending on character creation rules, he can start play with as many as a dozen languages known.

Just get pagaent of the peacock and you're good to go


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So, I understand this is a Pathfinder thread, but has anyone heard of the D&D 3.5 class called the "Beguiler"? Basically, take a Warmage from Complete Arcane, but make him about illusions and ridiculous bluffing instead of Evocation. When I was DMing, nobody in the party took on the Expert role, so I made an NPC beguiler that claimed to be a bard, and it was a very interesting character to be. Sure we've only met once and we're all still level 1 but...

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Just get pagaent of the peacock and you're good to go

Well, he's got no Charisma, what with being a robot built for a specific purpose.

@Mr. McSwaggerpants: Yes. My favourite class that ever caused a TPK. I was still relatively inexperienced and brought him in to our group's run of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. And then I forgot that using blinding colour surge to sneak up on a dragon doesn't really work... But in that brief moment, I loved him almost as much as the dragon did.


Mark Hoover wrote:

I don't have the full build but I recently had a human paladin with the following feats: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus: Diplomacy. At 1st level the party's first adventure was to guard a body. 3 custom pixies with a necromantic bent arrived and claimed the corpse for a proper, natural burial. Even though Diplomacy isn't a combat skill and the fight had already begun the PC rolled anyway and scored a natural 20.

He did so well the fey refused to attack him. He fought defensively and the fey were further impressed. After this adventure wrapped they ran into similar pixies twice more and this paladin continued using Diplomacy with terrific results. They eventually imbued him with a fey mark allowing the paladin to call on them in the wilds.

This guy, w/out smite, didn't do much damage at all in combat, but he was tons of fun to have at the table.

Umm not sure if house ruled components should count. Diplomacy straight out states generally not working once combat starts. Furthermore shifting attitude would take a full 10 rounds.

Dark Archive

Wow, nice ideas! 3.5 is good to go too! =)


First since most of pathfinder is combat, or at least potentially, then focusing on battle is a good policy on the whole. So "optimized" characters in battle will often be subpar outside of battle. However, you must bear in mind that both cases were great in what they were made to achieve. Each had a job to do and by the two workin together they were made stronger. Related note: it is definitely true that spellcasters can use spells to have a strong role in non-combat, but in doing so they are losing potential resources before ever they enter battle and that could be ugly or even dangerous if not handled very well and with a little luck.

Second: it is possible to have a well rounded character that is optimized. The question is what is it optimized for? The roles in pathfinder are often broken down into mouth piece, melee combatant, ranged combatant, spell caster, skill monkey, trap finder and perhaps scout. Choose wisely what you pursue.

Third: for the OP request of a build I have one for discussion.

Human inquisitor of Shelyn 20 point buy

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 7

Attribute bonus to what you prefer ur specialty be.
Conversion inquisition is the one I made stats for. Your now a fully functional mouthpiece that is just shy of double digits on most mouth piece skills.

Tactics in battle: you can choose what u want in the middle of battle. Shelyn was specifically chosen for the glaive and its reach. Yes a long spear does the same but you get a little more damage with glaive. If you seek melee battle then take combat reflexes and another feat u feel is appropriate and just use "reach cleric" tactics in battle (those work FYI).

If you seek ranged grab two ranged feats like point blank or such. Pretty feat intensive but ur relevant in near all battles. Just keep your glaive with you and grab power attack if practical.

Skills: you have 7 plus maybe skilled (1) so you have a lot of choices. Grab all the social skills and most of the wisdom skills ASAP and keep em strong. After that take dips into the best knowledge skills are class skills. Your not the bard but I truly believe that your better than the rogue because of your class features that come across the levels.

Unique notes: ur the best initiative character in ur party unless someone went to EXTREMES to beat you so use it as best you know how. Never forget that you will always have a solution to a problem. You may not shine but ur ability to handle a problem is limited by ur imagination. Scout, can't scout talk, can't talk divine, can't divine shoot em, he dodged the arrows then impale him, if he's meaner than you cast expeditious retreat and RUN!

That should do.


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I think that if you want to optimize at something other than combat you have to tell us what you want to do.

Sovereign Court

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wraithstrike wrote:
I think that if you want to optimize at something other than combat you have to tell us what you want to do.

I get the impression they aren't planning on doing anything. Just wanting to see what kinds of ideas people come up with and perhaps use one for a later campaign.


Renegade Shepherd wrote:

Human inquisitor of Shelyn 20 point buy

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 7

Well no one will suspect you at least... perhaps your order can offer you a stylish mask to hide your face behi.. erm.. match your robes.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Renegade Shepherd wrote:

Human inquisitor of Shelyn 20 point buy

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 7

Well no one will suspect you at least... perhaps your order can offer you a stylish mask to hide your face behi.. erm.. match your robes.

Yes I would indeed prefer to have a fine mask. For you see I am a magnificent professional artist in service of my lady and all great artists need some mystery about them. I merely regret Shelyn requires me to sing though I am truly abyssmal in my singing.


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This basically teaches you how to make an eidolon more awesome than the party's rogue.


TarkXT wrote:

This basically teaches you how to make an eidolon more awesome than the party's rogue.

Not hard as 4 points buys you hide in plain sight with permanent ghost touch and at least 20% concealment, up to 50%. Doesn't hurt you can get small size for free, a +8 to any skill you want is a mere one point, access to every sense in the game, and you're still helpful in combat just via the summoner's summoning capability and buffs.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


Well, it depends on how much you want to optimize.

If you are literally optimizing for damage output, for example, you may well sink all your mental stats to 7. With effectively no skill points, and a negative modifier on almost all skills, you're not going to be largely ineffective at any social challenge.

Eh, most of the Pink Mist Generators I play need one mental stat at a decent level.

But let's do a Half-Orc Barbarian: All mental stats 7, Str 20. Scarred Rager. Invest a single feat in non-combat ability (Intimidating Prowess), and his Intimidate is +4 rank & class -2 Cha +5 Str +1 archetype +2 racial = +10 at first level. At level 8, with no further investment other than skill ranks, he's at +23.

That's a guy who gets things done.

Grand Lodge

The Breakdance Robot and Goddang Know-it-all were not combat focused builds, but nonetheless, optimized for fun.


http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nxq0?Highest-Diplomacy-Can-You-Get-Your-Bonus- Over

This thread might be useful here.


I find that when you optimize for something other than combat, GMs are taken aback. I made a Human Barbarian who had +17 sleight of hand at level 1 and my GM hated him. It just did not compute that I built a thief on the "wrong" chassis. I wanted to be able to not only take the money, but be able to run (40 ft move) and fight. I was a decent switch hitter in combat, but I was given a magic greataxe despite my being equipped with a Longbow, Buckler and Warhammer for 4 levels, you know what I'm just gonna stop before I get myself angry about lousy GMs.

Make sure whatever non-combat task you happen to be good at won't make your GM nerf you to the point of no fun.

Dark Archive

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Gregory Connolly wrote:

I find that when you optimize for something other than combat, GMs are taken aback. I made a Human Barbarian who had +17 sleight of hand at level 1 and my GM hated him. It just did not compute that I built a thief on the "wrong" chassis. I wanted to be able to not only take the money, but be able to run (40 ft move) and fight. I was a decent switch hitter in combat, but I was given a magic greataxe despite my being equipped with a Longbow, Buckler and Warhammer for 4 levels, you know what I'm just gonna stop before I get myself angry about lousy GMs.

Make sure whatever non-combat task you happen to be good at won't make your GM nerf you to the point of no fun.

Wow! That's unfortunate you had a lousy GM. I don't suspect I'll have that problem, fortunately. =)


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Catfolk archivist bard w/the +1/2 to all knowledge skills FCB and Deific Obedience: Irori. If you can somehow access the Breadth of Experience feat, even better.

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