Ipslore,
For Captain Pathinder America to replicate the relevant abilities with extra levels (for hit bonuses, etc.), he'd need to be so advanced that it wouldn't make a difference.
The point is, Captain America is obviously not 8th level (or what have you). The whole body of his canon material makes this quite evident.
Kudaku,
Right, but no 8th level character could have ALL of those Feats. Or even most of them. I'm not familiar enough with E6, though, so I could be missing something important. :)
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Again, I'm not saying you should make all of these abilities nonmagical. I'm saying whether or not they are magical is irrelevant to whether they are appropriate for the class.
You're also assuming that the only way to stop a teleporter is with anti-magic, which isn't true
This reminds me of one session I had years ago. We were at the beginning of fighting our most major battle. We were all in the 16-20 level range, because we played this campaign for nearly 2 years. This was a big group of players; around 10 players. One of the wizards that was adjacent to me decided to turn against us, and she attacked a party member with finger of death and actually killed him. She tried to use quicken teleport to leave, but my fighter had teleport tactician and stunning assault.. The wizard died shortly after she got stun-locked.
Yeah... Quite a few people weren't too happy with how things were going.
The campaign did actually end a few weeks later.
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Kudaku,
Right, but no 8th level character could have ALL of those Feats. Or even most of them. I'm not familiar enough with E6, though, so I could be missing something important. :)
The E6 rules are based around the idea that 3.x is most balanced at level 6 - full BAB classes get two attacks per round, casters get level 3 spells etc. The game plays as normal until the characters reach level 6, then they stop progressing. Instead of leveling up every so often, they gain feats.
E8 is similar to E6, but the cap kicks in at 8 instead of 6.
It's a fairly popular way to play D&D but keep the game stable in the gritty/heroic fantasy genre instead of gradually transitioning into superhero land. If it sounds interesting it's explained in more detail here. You can also find similar writeups for applying E6 to Pathfinder, but that's the original concept.
Since we're on the topic, there is a Captain Andoran build kicking around the forum that goes up to level 8. If you apply a "super soldier" template to it, I think it's a fairly reasonable representation of what Cap can do.
Ah! That clarifies things - thanks, Swoosh! :)
EDIT:
Thanks to you, as well, Kudaku! I still posit that Cap's accuracy exceeds a +8/+2 BaB, but I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree. :)
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Again, I'm not saying you should make all of these abilities nonmagical. I'm saying whether or not they are magical is irrelevant to whether they are appropriate for the class.
If that's what you're saying then we totally agree - but you can do that without erasing the distinction between Ex and Su abilities, so now I'm more confused as to the recommendation in your blog post.
You're also assuming that the only way to stop a teleporter is with anti-magic, which isn't true: the way to stop a teleporter is to use anti-teleportation effects, which might be magical, psionic, or mundane. In 2E, the rule used to be that living matter prevented ethereal travel, so you could grow moss all over the walls and door of your panic room so enemies couldn't travel ethereally. X-ray vision, even from a magical source, is blocked by sufficient thickness of stone, metal, dirt, or wood. So if you need to restrain a teleporter, get some magic manacles of phase-locking on them, or psionically block their teleportation, or put them in a lead-lined room. Or just keep them unconscious or drugged.
AMF is a merely a big, clumsy hammer in your toolbox. You don't need to use AMF to solve a problem that calls for a screwdriver or allen wrench.
But there are other ways out of that prison besides teleportation. Charming the guards, shapeshifting to fit through the bars, becoming incorporeal, summoning something that can break the lock/steal the key for you, levitating the key to you, turning the lock into pudding, leaving an illusion of yourself in your bunk and slipping past the guard when he brings you food, just plain wishing/miracling your way out etc. AMF stops all of those. Yeah, AMF is a rubber mallet, but sometimes it's easier when writing (or playing in!) a story to just have that mallet instead of a dozen and one different screwdrivers/allen wrenches.
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But there are other ways out of that prison besides teleportation. Charming the guards, shapeshifting to fit through the bars, becoming incorporeal, turning the lock into pudding etc. AMF stops all of those. Yeah, AMF is a rubber mallet, but sometimes it's easier when writing a story to have that mallet instead of 10 different screwdrivers.
But the sad thing about AMF is that the whole point is to bring casters down to the point where they're susceptible to the same mundane stuff as martials. Like, say, prison cells.
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I don't think he should be cutting ghosts in half with an Ex ability and mundane sword. Ghosts are magical enough that I think defeating them with magic is reasonable.By stating that something can be "magical enough" that you're then required to use magic to defeat it, you've just admitted that you want magic to be inherently superior to non-magic.
As a matter of fact, I do, what of it? I want the gap to be smaller but not nonexistent. I consider, for example, reviving the dead and creating life to be a pretty big deal and things that nonmagic should not be able to do.
But the sad thing about AMF is that the whole point is to bring casters down to the point where they're susceptible to the same mundane stuff as martials. Like, say, prison cells.
Not "sad" - necessary. Humans relate to what is familiar, and that includes reading/playing in stories. Look at Harry Potter or Wheel of Time - high magic settings both, with people capable of teleporting and dominating their way out of all kinds of incarceration. You need magical prisons to stop that. Azkaban may not have been swathed in AMFs, but given what the Dementors do to you it might as well be.
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As a matter of fact, I do, what of it? I want the gap to be smaller but not nonexistent. I consider, for example, reviving the dead and creating life to be a pretty big deal and things that nonmagic should not be able to do.I don't think he should be cutting ghosts in half with an Ex ability and mundane sword. Ghosts are magical enough that I think defeating them with magic is reasonable.By stating that something can be "magical enough" that you're then required to use magic to defeat it, you've just admitted that you want magic to be inherently superior to non-magic.
Well, just so you're aware, the context of most of the discussion here is the idea that non-magic should be at the same tier. Not doing the exact same things necessarily, but the same caliber of things.
But the sad thing about AMF is that the whole point is to bring casters down to the point where they're susceptible to the same mundane stuff as martials. Like, say, prison cells.Not "sad" - necessary. Humans relate to what is familiar, and that includes reading/playing in stories. Look at Harry Potter or Wheel of Time - high magic settings both, with people capable of teleporting and dominating their way out of all kinds of incarceration. You need magical prisons to stop that. Azkaban may not have been swathed in AMFs, but given what the Dementors do to you it might as well be.
Notice how nobody played a non-caster in that setting? Muggles are background NPCs. If we're going to make them player options, they need to be capable of interacting with the setting on equal footing with the wizards.
But there are other ways out of that prison besides teleportation. Charming the guards, shapeshifting to fit through the bars, becoming incorporeal, turning the lock into pudding etc. AMF stops all of those. Yeah, AMF is a rubber mallet, but sometimes it's easier when writing a story to have that mallet instead of 10 different screwdrivers.But the sad thing about AMF is that the whole point is to bring casters down to the point where they're susceptible to the same mundane stuff as martials. Like, say, prison cells.
Sure it can be. It's just very difficult to actually use against a caster. Ignoring the fact that high level casters are immune to it thanks to Aroden's Spellbane, there are number of problems with using antimagic field to counter a caster.
1. Antimagic Field is a spell and thus requires a caster to nerf themselves (bad idea) or a martial to pick up an expensive magic item (Equalizer Shield) that is extremely limited in duration.
2. The person who has AMF on will require a means of Ex Flight if they want to actually engage an enemy caster.
3. The person who has AMF on will require a means of Ex See Invisibility if they want to actually engage an enemy caster. (Note that the spells required for 2 & 3 are much lower then AMF itself.)
4. The person who has AMF on has nerfed their HP, AC, To hit, and saves. This is a bad idea.
5. Conjuration spells will work just fine provided they are cast outside the field.
6. Any Animated/Called minions will work just fine.
In short, AMF is not the caster answer that many believe it to be.
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Well, just so you're aware, the context of most of the discussion here is the idea that non-magic should be at the same tier. Not doing the exact same things necessarily, but the same caliber of things.
And how exactly do you do that? How do you expect jumping really high or rebounding a lightning strike with a metal plate to be the "same caliber" as summoning an army of undead, finding a needle in a haystack on the other side of the globe, or creating a clone of yourself that will come to life when you die?
Or rather, how do you do that without creating 4th edition?
Notice how nobody played a non-caster in that setting? Muggles are background NPCs. If we're going to make them player options, they need to be capable of interacting with the setting on equal footing with the wizards.
And Wheel of Time? Plenty of influential muggles there. Blademasters, generals, trackers, thieves...
And then there are the folks that SKR was talking about, the ones that don't have the versatility of a true spellcaster but still have a unique supernatural ability or two, like the ability to command wolves and hunt through dreams. I could see a high-level Ranger doing stuff like that.
Well, just so you're aware, the context of most of the discussion here is the idea that non-magic should be at the same tier. Not doing the exact same things necessarily, but the same caliber of things.And how exactly do you do that? How do you expect jumping really high or rebounding a lightning strike with a metal plate to be the "same caliber" as summoning an army of undead, finding a needle in a haystack on the other side of the globe, or creating a clone of yourself that will come to life when you die?
Or rather, how do you do that without creating 4th edition?
Notice how nobody played a non-caster in that setting? Muggles are background NPCs. If we're going to make them player options, they need to be capable of interacting with the setting on equal footing with the wizards.And Wheel of Time? Plenty of influential muggles there. Blademasters, generals, trackers, thieves...
And then there are the folks that SKR was talking about, the ones that don't have the versatility of a true spellcaster but still have a unique supernatural ability or two, like the ability to command wolves and hunt through dreams. I could see a high-level Ranger doing stuff like that.
Simple, you let the martial destroy the very mountain those summoned army of undead are, let them be able to sense incoming magic (like say teleports) in advance, be able to track down clues like they were Sherlock Holmes (he'll find all the needles in he haystack), and of course allowing martials to come back from death to punch out the enemy base and give an inspirational speech to your ally that will allow them to become the protagonist of the series. Now... I don't think all martials should be able to do all of those, but I'm in also favor of limiting casters to more strict "spheres" (no not the 2E priest things).
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Thanks to you, as well, Kudaku! I still posit that Cap's accuracy exceeds a +8/+2 BaB, but I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree. :)
Happy to help! I understand you think a BAB of +8 might sound low, but it's actually fairly impressive for Pathfinder.
Let's consider something like Archery.
An archery bullseye is a Fine-sized target. It's AC breakdown in Pathfinder would probably look a bit like this:
10 AC baseline
+8 for being a Fine target
-5 for a dex of 0
-2 for being an inanimate object
= AC of 13
Next let's consider a world-class olympic archer. He's a human level 3 warrior (warrior instead of expert for the full BAB progression:
+5 Ability score modifier
+3 BAB
+1 Masterwork Bow
Point Blank Shot (for prerequisites)
Far Shot
Weapon Focus: Recurve Bow
So he has a to hit bonus of +10, or +11 when the target is within 30 feet. The olympic archery targets are 70m or 230 feet away from the archer, so he takes a -2 penalty for being in the third range increment. He can hit the central bullseye 75% of the time, which I think is about what you can expect to see in the Olympic finals.
If the target is within 30 feet he has a bonus of +11 and no range penalty, meaning he can only miss the bullseye on a natural 1.
For comparison let's say Cap is level 8 in a class that has full BAB progression, a dexterity of 24 from the Super-Soldier template (which is otherwise about what I'd expect to see on a level 8 character) and all the feats you attributed to him. He's using a custom +5 Returning Distance throwing shield.
+7 Ability Score modifier
+8 BAB
+5 Shield
Weapon Focus: Shield
His to hit bonus is at +21, twice as high as the world's best archer.
Barring a natural 1 he will hit the archer's bullseye target at 230 feet distance dead center every damn time. In fact, he can walk an additional 90 feet away from the target and he still won't miss on anything except a 1. And the best part? With Shot on the Run, he can, quite literally, run rings around an olympic champion and still out-throw him on every shot. With a shield.
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Simple, you let the martial destroy the very mountain those summoned army of undead are, let them be able to sense incoming magic (like say teleports) in advance, be able to track down clues like they were Sherlock Holmes (he'll find all the needles in he haystack), and of course allowing martials to come back from death to punch out the enemy base and give an inspirational speech to your ally that will allow them to become the protagonist of the series. Now... I don't think all martials should be able to do all of those, but I'm in also favor of limiting casters to more strict "spheres" (no not the 2E priest things).
What if they're ghosts? Destroying or even throwing a mountain won't do much then.
Sense incoming magic I'm fine with. Tracking clues is fine too though obviously it will be far slower than divination since you both have to find each clue and interpret its meaning.
Self-revival I'm also fine with, at very high levels. But yelling an inspirational speech at random NPC's corpse to revive them, or a moldy decaying body that has been dead for months if not years... no, just no.
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I wouldn't support martials being able to inspire long dead corpses back to life.
What I would support is a martial being able to swing his sword so hard he can slice a hole through reality to jump planes. Buddy's dead? That's cool, just take a short walk to hell and bring him back with you.
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Simple, you let the martial destroy the very mountain those summoned army of undead are, let them be able to sense incoming magic (like say teleports) in advance, be able to track down clues like they were Sherlock Holmes (he'll find all the needles in he haystack), and of course allowing martials to come back from death to punch out the enemy base and give an inspirational speech to your ally that will allow them to become the protagonist of the series. Now... I don't think all martials should be able to do all of those, but I'm in also favor of limiting casters to more strict "spheres" (no not the 2E priest things).What if they're ghosts? Destroying or even throwing a mountain won't do much then.
Sense incoming magic I'm fine with. Tracking clues is fine too though obviously it will be far slower than divination since you both have to find each clue and interpret its meaning.
Self-revival I'm also fine with, at very high levels. But yelling an inspirational speech at random NPC's corpse to revive them, or a moldy decaying body that has been dead for months if not years... no, just no.
Well to go with my previous example; High level martials should be able to do the impossible, see the invisible, touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable. So... the ghosts may be in quite a bit of trouble.
There's two editions of Captain America: The classic, and the Ultimates.
Cap definitely has the Super Soldier template applied to him. He's effectively at World Record level in ALL physical abilities...he can lift as much as the strongest weightlifter, run as fast as the fastest sprinter, for as long as the greatest marathoner.
On top of that, his reflexes are ten times faster then human. He can see bullets.
He is the #1 tactician in the Marvel Universe. He's the Reed Richards of leadership in combat and tactical ability, and combat skill. He's also considered the best hand to hand combatant on the planet. i.e. he's as good as Batman at fighting, but a super-soldier on top of it, and will beat him.
He has all the skills expected of a soldier and military officer. His leadership is so high he's known as a commander on OTHER WORLDS.
I'd peg him as a Guide Urban Ranger, FE: Humans, Constructs, Aliens, in that order. His Super Soldier template gives him a boost on saves, ac, initiative
Thor defers to him in combat. Thor acknowledges that Captain America is a more skilled warrior then he is.
Ultimates Cap is plainly superhuman. He needs an hour of sleep a week. He masters new skills by the hour. He can run over fifty miles an hour, lift a tank, and literally doesn't get tired. He's basically impervious to mental assault, can use any weapon manufactured, pilot anything, drive anything, etc etc.
What Thor is, is an Asgardian Son of Odin. He's got a Strength score of 68 at least, wields several artifacts, and has godly ability scores.
Thor is not higher level then Cap. His TEMPLATE is huger.
Likewise, Superman and Batman. Batman is a high level and skilled opponent. Superman is maybe level 5 with the Kryptonian Under a Yellow Sun template. It boosts his CR into the post-20 area.
Superman is not high level. Superman has high stats.
Batman is high level. But Batman doesn't have Str 100, Move "I just passed a photon!" and AC "Did a planet just slam into me? Ouch." as benefits of being Kryptonian.
Batman can do things with his skills that Superman relies on super-senses for.
Likewise, the Hulk is indeed an alchemist who stumbled into the Gamma Powered Mutatagen that blows his stats out of the water (Step one, get into the burst radius of a Gamma Bomb and have the Banner x-gene. Step two...). He's not massively skilled...he might be level 5 (he had no combat training to speak of until the Planet Hulk series).
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As for being able to leap and improve distances, just use the lower gravity rules.
At level 6, the fighter doubles the amount of weight he can lift, distance he can throw stuff, and distance he can jump, just as if he were on a lower gravity world.
At level 11, this is triple. At 16, quadrupled.
Granted, he's still restricted how far in a round he can do this by his movement, but I think everyone thinks a high level martial should have enhanced move that doesn't come from gear.
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What it comes down to is, don't mistake great stats for great levels. The paragon template from 3E Epic rules is a prime example of how you can take a wimpy level and make it killer with application of high enough stats.
Most of the bricks in the superhero world are low level with a massive template effectively boosting them to high level. Most of the brains are high level with the skills to match, but they simply don't have the stats of a brick.
====Aelryinth
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Well to go with my previous example; High level martials should be able to do the impossible, see the invisible, touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable. So... the ghosts may be in quite a bit of trouble.
With individual maneuvers/techniques, sure. Desert Wind from ToB can harm ghosts for instance, and I could see similar techniques that let their favored blade do force damage or make it ghost touch. But just throwing a chair or random rock into the ghosts, meh.
I'm beginning to think that we have gone far afield on the Marvel stat-ups. My primary point was that much like I see Zeus as a level 12-13 Druid, I see Captain America as a Level 8 Ranger (fits better for Shield Master). I base those off the fact that the Alexandrian Article pegs Aragorn at 6th level. The primary thrust of my comments was more along the lines of "If these guys aren't even level 10 martials, imagine what a level 15 martial could do." Because that's the kind of things I'd like to see martials be able to do. Mid-level martials from 10-14ish should be pulling off RWBY like moves. And 17-20 should be pulling of Cu Cuchulain style moves.
With individual maneuvers/techniques, sure. Desert Wind from ToB can harm ghosts for instance, and I could see similar techniques that let their favored blade do force damage or make it ghost touch. But just throwing a chair or random rock into the ghosts, meh.
Well to go with my previous example; High level martials should be able to do the impossible, see the invisible, touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable. So... the ghosts may be in quite a bit of trouble.
A Rock powered with FIGHTING SPIRIT~! And/or Haki/Spiral Energy/Awesomeness.
To help you realize what kind of stats we're talking about...
Captain America classic can lift about 800 lbs. That max load puts him right at Str 26.
Someone with a Str of 36 can lift up to 3600 lbs, a little less then two tons. Yes, he can finally bench a Buick.
But in terms of superhero performance and ability?
Spiderwoman can do 8 tons. That's a 47 in the PF system.
Spider man can do 15 tons. That's a 52.
Power Man can do 25 tons. That's a 55-56.
Classic old Iron Man in armor could do 50 tons. That's a 61ish.
Mrs. Marvel can do 75 tons. That's about a 64. The Thing at 85 tons would be a 65.
Thor and Herc and the like can do 100 tons, which is about a 67 Str.
There is NOTHING in the Pathfinder game with a 67 Strength. As a matter of fact, there's nothing with any ability score that high in PF.
Thor's belt that doubles his Strength? Raises it to 72 in Pathfinder.
So, keep in mind ability scores when throwing around these comparisons. A high level Barbarian is NOT the hulk. He's not strong enough to throw a car, let alone a tank. The bricks of the Marvel universe could wuss-slap CR 30 Demon Lords from a position of pure physical might. The Hulk is strong enough to potentially crack the planet's crust wide open. Str 40 just isn't going to be able to compare.
Marvel Thor coming into PF would send every evil overlord on the planet scurrying for cover.
But you know what a 67 Strength gives you, besides carrying capacity? +28 to hit. Yeah, it gives you a better base To Hit then a level 20 fighter. You can be a low level schlub if you've got them stats.
So don't go throwing around THor and Hulk as high level, skilled heroes. They aren't. Captain America is much closer to the baseline for a PF level 20 - He's the best on the planet, clearly better then human, hits what he fights, can beat things clearly more powerful then he is, and has superhuman ability scores.
The only thing he's lacking is the spread of enhancement gear PF fighters have...which he could get whenever he wanted with a simple appeal to Tony Stark, and instead chooses not to run around in Power Armor. By choice.
Keep scale in mind, please!
==Aelryinth
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Disclaimer: Aside from reading the blog, I've only slightly skimmed this thread.
I don't think removing the distinction between (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) is what is needed. What I DO think is needed is for the developers to purge themselves of the notion that (Ex) must not ever be allowed to be anywhere near as good as (Su) or (Sp). Hell, I think there are some areas where (Ex) should be clearly superior to (Su) or (Sp). And that shouldn't be limited to only withing an AMF, dead magic zone, or wild magic zone.
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Thor's belt that doubles his Strength? Raises it to 72 in Pathfinder.
He strength also gets multiplied 10x when he's raging. Raging PLUS the belt?
G#%#%*n ridiculous.
The really insane bit? That's not even a patch on Superman. Marvel generally sticks to hundreds of tons to measure their top-tier strength levels.
DC measures Superman in QUINTILLIONS of tons. That's not even worth calculating a STR score. He always hits, and he always kills.
To help you realize what kind of stats we're talking about...
Captain America classic can lift about 800 lbs. That max load puts him right at Str 26.
Someone with a Str of 36 can lift up to 3600 lbs, a little less then two tons. Yes, he can finally bench a Buick.
But in terms of superhero performance and ability?
Spiderwoman can do 8 tons. That's a 47 in the PF system.
Spider man can do 15 tons. That's a 52.
Power Man can do 25 tons. That's a 55-56.
Classic old Iron Man in armor could do 50 tons. That's a 61ish.
Mrs. Marvel can do 75 tons. That's about a 64. The Thing at 85 tons would be a 65.
Thor and Herc and the like can do 100 tons, which is about a 67 Str.There is NOTHING in the Pathfinder game with a 67 Strength. As a matter of fact, there's nothing with any ability score that high in PF.
Thor's belt that doubles his Strength? Raises it to 72 in Pathfinder.
So, keep in mind ability scores when throwing around these comparisons. A high level Barbarian is NOT the hulk. He's not strong enough to throw a car, let alone a tank. The bricks of the Marvel universe could wuss-slap CR 30 Demon Lords from a position of pure physical might. The Hulk is strong enough to potentially crack the planet's crust wide open. Str 40 just isn't going to be able to compare.
Marvel Thor coming into PF would send every evil overlord on the planet scurrying for cover.
But you know what a 67 Strength gives you, besides carrying capacity? +28 to hit. Yeah, it gives you a better base To Hit then a level 20 fighter. You can be a low level schlub if you've got them stats.
So don't go throwing around THor and Hulk as high level, skilled heroes. They aren't. Captain America is much closer to the baseline for a PF level 20 - He's the best on the planet, clearly better then human, hits what he fights, can beat things clearly more powerful then he is, and has superhuman ability scores.
The only thing he's lacking is the spread of enhancement gear PF fighters have...which he could get whenever he wanted...
Your falling victim to "X must be 20th level" here. Captain America is not a high level martial. Better then human is why I gave him 2 levels above 6 to make him level 8. Lets go away from Marvel Universe comparisons for a moment. If Captain America is your level 20, what level would you put Ruby from RWBY at? What level would you put Cu Cuchulain at? Because both those characters are stronger then Captain America to me and neither is a level 20 martial in my mind, though Cu Cuchulain is the closest clocking in at 17-19 on my scale.
What's your scale?
Damn, this thread's nuts for Capt. America! That's cool, I guess.
Anzyr, I think there's a slight flaw in your thinking. You're limiting any character out of the Marvel-verse to a maximum level/CR of 20 by default because that's how high non-mythic PF characters go. Remember, we're talking the Marvel universe here, where people like Carol Danvers, Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, and T'Challa exist and can take on whole armies by themselves. Think about that, all that ridiculous firepower of the modern age, whole brigades with advanced sci-fi weapons for fighting meta-human foes, and any one of those heroes could, probably, take on such a group by themselves and win.
Now, compare one of those characters to their high-end foes: Apocalypse, Galactus, Loki, the Phoenix Force, Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, and the Living Tribunal. These are all actual things here that clock in WAAAAAAY over CR 20. Hell, the last two are BEYOND the power of deities (I think the Living Tribunal guards the entire multi-verse). Any of these guys showing up on Golarion intending to cause trouble would be hilariously bad, if not immediately catastrophic for the entire planet. The CR of the lowest of them, Apocalypse, has got to be at LEAST that of a full-fledged demon lord, if not more (because seriously, greatest mutant ever, does not die, look at my name b@*#$, etc). So, compared to him, why could Steve Rogers, who WOULD lose in a 1-on-1 fight with ol' En Sabah Nur, not be a CR 17-19 martial character whose special abilities are simply fantastic fighting and tactical skills? Just 'cause he doesn't punch open mountains, so what, that's not his shtick. Cu Cuchulain is analagous to the Silver Surfer in the insane level of power he can use, so let's put him up where he belongs, going toe-to-toe with demon lords. This way, we leave the 'top tier martial' (lvl 16-20) category easier to fill for our friendly Avengers.
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One of the challenges though is that a certain subset of the player base doesn't WANT to be so heavily dependent on magic, even though magic literally permeates the worlds that those PCs exist in. Maybe it's the lack of consistency in magic or an actual prejudice. I don't know if it's a disconnect or what, maybe they are just playing the wrong game, but that would be a shame.
For me, it's less that I don't want certain martial characters to be dependant on magic so much as I want them to be self-sufficient, depending on their own supernatural stuff rather than magical gear or certain buffs that they're sometimes presumed to always have access to.
Ascetic monks would be my big example. I would not mind at all if it was held up by supernatural abilities, but having them dependant on supernatural aid that comes from expensive gear, weapons, or needing to have their awesomeness come from a caster just makes the concept taste like ashes when it comes time to play. If that character's awesomeness came from their own training, discipline, and enlightenment instead, it would just feel right.
If people are going to talk about how pathfinder characters can't carry 100 tons, at least they should acknowledge mythic abilities that increase your carrying capacity. Display of strength adds +20 and mules strength increases it by 5 that can be taken multiple times that stacks with everything. 35 strength with display of strength and 2 mules strengths bumps it up to 65, effectively. Obviously you can go way higher than this with other modifiers.
On the super hero thing (which has been fun to read even if off the rails), stating Marvel heroes with PF stats isn't useful since the metrics are out of line, as Aelryinth has actually proved I think. (DC is worse).
Let's look at Dr. Strange.
Dr. Strange is Earth's "Sorceror Supreme", the top magic user on the Planet. Yet there are things he can't do that a level 20 Wizard can. Death is Death. He can cheat death, he can time travel to reverse the events that lead to death, but he can't Resurect a dead person back to life (traditionally, there may be an outlier story I'm not familiar with).
Level 20 wizards can do things in PF that Gandalf, Merlin, Saruman the (non comic) Loki, Odin or even Rand al'Thor can't do.
Rand al'Thor is basically the magical Messiah if you are unfamiliar with him.
Bringing PF Martials into balance with PF full casters would actually require some Cu Cuchalin (spelling?)type mountain smashing.
The push in D&D for more personal power has resulted in a game that is far afield of it's source material. The only thing left is super heroes, and the casters are beyond that.
Back on topic.
The Ex/SU distinction is still important. Many people have weighed in and I agree that a distinction is still somewhat necessary. Not only for AMF but for Dispel, and more I can't conjure right now.
An interesting development for the Fighter and other Martials would be to keep the distinction but simply make our mundane, non-spell casters the exclusive beneficiaries of EX classed powers that model the supernatural.
The 17th level fighter could generate a Banishment effect on a Critical, not because he's simulating a spell but because he KNOWS that outsiders are creatures of belief and the fighter BELIEVES that the one in front of him needs to go home.
That's pretty Extraordinary.
He could likewise generate a Dimensional Anchor, or reverse Energy Drain something that just Drained him.
Mikaze wrote:
For me, it's less that I don't want certain martial characters to be dependant on magic so much as I want them to be self-sufficient, depending on their own supernatural stuff rather than magical gear or certain buffs that they're sometimes presumed to always have access to.
I've been of this opinion for a long time.
The game has become too reliant on STUFF, a PC should be more than an inventory sheet.One of the prefaces in the older Pathfinder issues talks about the "Wonder" of magical loot, specifically how that sense of wonder has been completely lost in the modern game. If an item, even a cool albeit only situationally useful item, isn't one of the "must have in slot" items it's just going to get sold off to upgrade the next stat boosting belt or headband.
That's kinda sad.
It also undermines the "meh it's magic", line of thinking that seems to be the root of a lot of the problems Sean's blog is trying to address. In effect the built in magic item dependence has stolen the "Wonder" out of the game's magical fabric. It's no longer even magic, it's a mechanical machine that pumps abstracted values.
Jiggy said it earlier, magic is a short cut to power. It shouldn't be the only path. The people who push back against magic dependence are rightly bothered by it. I can see their point, and Sean is right that there is a mindset in the design that just keeps piling on the magic, Pesh like addiction. I'm not sure I was even conscious of it before.
I think a flaw in the way strength is used in PF has been pointed out.
By the time you get enough strength to meaningfully effect the world, you are auto-hitting all attacks.
This may stem back from AD&D 2e where god-like strength (25) still couldn't press 2000 lbs.
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The day PF characters can boost strength the Hulk levels, I'm out.
They can meaningfully impact the world without throwing buildings into deep space.
The stats are abstractions.
But they have messed up some parts of the game. Once upon a time a Sphinx could pose a Riddle and players had to work it out. Int checks could give clues but that's it.
Now the int 30 wizzy just expects a check to give him an answer because he's smarter than a diety. And clues don't work because "riddles are dumb".
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Level 20 wizards can do things in PF that Gandalf, Merlin, Saruman the (non comic) Loki, Odin or even Rand al'Thor can't do.
Rand al'Thor is basically the magical Messiah if you are unfamiliar with him.
Ehhh...I'm not entirely sure Rand CAN'T do many of the things a 20th level Wizard can do. He just never really had much time to figure out the superfluous stuff like creating demiplanes and whatnot while he was busy making hundreds of portals to another dimension open and close simultaneously, eating up entire armies at once. Or making a blast of energy so awesome it can retroactively delete people from the timestream, undoing hours of their actions. Or Teleporting/Gating a ridiculous number of people at once (which is actually something a 20th level Wizard CAN'T do, except maybe with Gate shenanigans that aren't 100% guaranteed to work).
Rand is capable of some crazy s&!@, yo, and he didn't even rediscover a lot of the stuff people in the Age of Legends could do.
Basically, I think he has the ABILITY, he just doesn't have anybody to learn the requisite spells from, he has to get all his stuff from spell research.
And he has effectively unlimited spells a day by the end of the series, or at least a GIGANTIC number of them. Even if he were only like a 15th level caster that'd pick up a lot of the slack.
And that's not even counting...
...The implied ability to literally do ANYTHING by snapping his fingers he gets in the last couple of lines of the series.
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Ugh. Sorry, TTGL machismo-anime posturing is not my style at all. Powering improvised weapons up with ki would be a specific technique, not baseline to everyone who can pick up a rock.
A Rock powered with FIGHTING SPIRIT~! And/or Haki/Spiral Energy/Awesomeness.
Why is "high level fighters should be able to do X with a rock they just picked up" the same as "doing X is baseline to everyone who can pick up a rock"?
Given that real life is generally regarded as E6, it looks like the highest you can have an ability score is 21. 22, if you prefer E8.
I have never bought that. Real life is 20. Mythic is where we get outside real life.
Given that real life is generally regarded as E6, it looks like the highest you can have an ability score is 21. 22, if you prefer E8.I have never bought that. Real life is 20. Mythic is where we get outside real life.
I have never met anyone in real life that is over level 5. Ever. Take a look at the Alexandrian Article and explain why you think Einstein needs to be more then level 3. Because its difficult to gauge your scale when you think that there are people who can make Olympic Athletes look like jokes in our world. What do they just not like attending sporting events? Or are they camera shy? And those Olympic Athletes are only level 3-4.
I can't even think of anyone in history that I believe would actually qualify for 6th level. I mean there might be a handful that could be grouped there, but not many.
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Real life is 20.
Well, I suppose I'm at least glad we established that as the context in which to take your comments. Knowing that you consider the defeat of the demon generals of the Abyss or the slaying of the most ancient and powerful dragons to be something within the reach of what's possible in real life certainly tells me a lot.
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Real life is 20.Well, I suppose I'm at least glad we established that as the context in which to take your comments. Knowing that you consider the defeat of the demon generals of the Abyss or the slaying of the most ancient and powerful dragons to be something within the reach of what's possible in real life certainly tells me a lot.
What did you miss Dragon Slayers on FLN last night? I thought it was crazy how Jorick fired 6 arrows at a distance of over 300 ft. and shot down Galtheriscix the Gloom Winged. All in 6 seconds! Especially with all the magic flying around. You know... the physics defying magical powers that totally exist and people carry around in their iCasts.
Given that real life is generally regarded as E6, it looks like the highest you can have an ability score is 21. 22, if you prefer E8.I have never bought that. Real life is 20. Mythic is where we get outside real life.
Oh, yeah... Just last night I stood 6 seconds inside hot lava and then left and went to work without any problem. Whatever wounds I had never inconvenienced me in any way and were completely healed in a few nights. And I know lots of people who casually lift over half a ton over their heads.
Also, I never realized that it was IMPOSSIBLE to play super-human characters in 3.X and PF up to a a few months ago, since Mythic hadn't been released..
Something other than being able to jump high enough to attack the (non-Mythic) wizard who literally flies all day.
What if it was okay for him to be like that without Mythic, just by virtue of being a high-level fighter?Then, what's Mythic for?
That's what spell casters do. Even the most mythic warrior-heroes could rarely fly all day. Not Cú Chulainn, not Gilgamesh, not Beowulf, not Hercules, not Odysseus, not Lancelot, Kama, Ōkuninushi, Sigurd, Finn McCool or Jason.
Thor does have a magic item that allows flight, sure (and he's a major deity). Perseus had the Pegasus. Nanabozho is a shapeshifter, but there are Rangers who can do that, and he could be a deity , anyway. Calaïs and Zetes could fly, but they were demigods.
Taking out deific beings, and those who have a magic item or mount, how many mythological heroes could fly?
I don't get how someone that looks at the kind of monsters a mid to high level can challenge and still think they're just a regular human (because that's the only race that exists in pathfinder, right?). A high level could physically overpower a creature that's taller than a building with their bare hands, but for some reason these same people would place Aragorn as an epic level fighter and gandalf as a level 50 fighter/wizard/eldritch knight abomination.
how many mythological heroes could fly?The same number who could cast overland flight (or fireball, plane shift, summon monster IX, etc).
Why do some PCs have to be restricted to only what real-world legends did, while other PCs get to ignore those boundaries?
Wizards get to do what Mythological wizards could do. And of course, few of those heroes I listed are "real world". Beowulf solo killed a epic troll with his bare hands, then killed a great wyrm. Gilgamesh- "real world"? Cú Chulainn? Heracles?
Most powerful heroes of all myth and legend, but almost none could fly.
That's what Merlin or Morgan le Fey or Circe, Atlantes,Farmer Weathersky,Gwydion fab Dôn,Väinämöinen, etc.
A Ranger can fly- without spells, and on his own. Or get a flying companion.
What's the use of classes if everyone can do everything? That hardly stimulates teamwork.