Wait, since when is there a consensus that Captain America is "only" an 8th level Fighter-equivalent? And what methodology was used to arrive at this, again? ;)
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For a long time it wasn't clear how a bumblebee can fly. The laws of aerodynamic know at the time said it shouldn't be capable to to fly as the mass/wing surface is wrong (your square/cube law). Fairly recently it was determined how it do it. Similarly the giant insects of the Paleozoic era today would have trouble surviving, but during that period the content of oxygen in the atmosphere was higher.
AFAIK the dragon can be capable to use the same tricks as the bumblebee, of have a way to hyperoxygenate his body to get a higher performance for some time.
That's something of a myth. Science never said 'bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly'. It said 'You can't model a bumblebee with the same math you use to model an airplane.'
Insects fly differently than birds, which fly differently from planes. Clearly, something a dragon's size and wingspan can fly, or commercial jets wouldn't work.
Only one thing needs to happen, assuming dragons fly in a method resembling birds or bats. They need to have muscles with a dramatically better strength/weight ratio than real muscles. That's fine: it's a mythological creature that's very strong. We can give it that. But then it needs to use those muscles beat those wings very fast. It would have to be more like a hummingbird (or a bee!) than a soaring eagle. (This has nothing to do with calories burned or oxygen needed. Just the amount of air that needs to be pushed down for the dragon to be pushed up.)
Cube/square law doesn't prove dragons can't fly, it proves they can't fly while not looking silly.
Sure. Though both of those could be Ex.WFT is 'Flying Edge Massacre'?An example name for a Fighter Technique from earlier in the thread. I think generically for 'Superhuman (Ex) ability that does a cool thing'. Possibly specifically means something like a leaping full attack.Kinda like: Sweeping Strike (Su): Even when you're swarmed, your foes are not safe from danger. Whenever you could make a full attack, you may instead make a single attack at your highest attack bonus and apply the results to all opponents within your reach. Roll damage once and apply it to all opponents hit by the attack. This attack can't deal precision damage. If the attack roll is a critical threat, choose one target you hit and attempt to confirm the critical against that target.
Or even Aerial Assault (Su)?
Why not?
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Phenomenal FOR A MUNDANE.
Real life people can get their hands up there, sometimes by a good margin. A RL athlete MIGHT, if they're amazing, be a 3rd level character.
A 20th level Barbarian shouldn't be limited to jumping slightly higher than that. That 13 foot jump should be like an 8th level character. Somewhat superhuman, but not blatantly so.
A 20th level character fights things that fly more often than not, routinely faces down creatures that could (and would) individually be able to wreck the collective shit of everyone on planet Earth.
He shouldn't even be able to be COMPARED in ability to an NBA player, is what I'm saying.
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Ties into what I said earlier about Golarion having soft, cuddly, heroics-loving physics instead of the cruel, harsh, second-rate physics we suffer under.
Absolutely. If a dragon can fly, in a dignified way, in an anti-magic field, then a fighter should be able to get into all kinds of shenanigans.
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Wait, since when is there a consensus that Captain America is "only" an 8th level Fighter-equivalent? And what methodology was used to arrive at this, again? ;)
Wait, since when is there a consensus that Captain America is "only" an 8th level Fighter-equivalent? And what methodology was used to arrive at this, again? ;)
Well 6 is mundane human maximum and Captain America is clearly above that. But he's not significantly above human maximum and a mid level martial like say Ruby, who is probably around level 10-12, could run circles around him in a fight. And he's certainly not up with someone like Cu Cuchulain whose clocking in around 17-19.
It's not really a "consensus" its just a good estimate.
Edit @ Ross Byers: Thank you kindly. I should have thought to include that in my post, but yes please read the calibrating your expectation at that link.
Sean, despite the derails and hijacks (to some extent, mea culpa) thank you for the fascinating blog and great thread.
Design Manager
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Well 6 is mundane human maximum and Captain America is clearly above that. ***
Things may have changed since the last time I read Captain America comics, but he was acutally supposed to be the peak of what a normal human could be, basically an Olympic athlete excelling at all sports.
So he'd be like a 6th level character whose base physical stats were all boosted to 18's and who had good wisdom and charisma to begin with.
Phenomenal FOR A MUNDANE.
Real life people can get their hands up there, sometimes by a good margin. A RL athlete MIGHT, if they're amazing, be a 3rd level character.
A 20th level Barbarian shouldn't be limited to jumping slightly higher than that. That 13 foot jump should be like an 8th level character. Somewhat superhuman, but not blatantly so.
I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page here. :)
The 20th level Barbarian isn't "limited to jumping slightly higher than [10 feet]." That's how high a basketball player's hands generally reach. The High Jump table under the Acrobatics skill entry references how high your character's feet will reach.
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Captain America routinely plays in same basic league as people who can throw cars and fight deities. He's way more than 6th level. Also, not a Fighter at all.
My Captain America stats:
Advanced Human Monk (Sohei) 2/Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 4/Ranger 10
LG Medium Humanoid
Init +13; Senses Perception +26,
DEFENSE
AC 39, touch 20, flat-footed 33 (+10 Armor, +6 Dex, +3 Deflection, +1 Luck, +2 Natural Armor, +7 Shield)
HP 196 (14d10+2d8+106)
Fort +29, Ref +26, Will +26
Special Defenses Evasion, Lay on Hands (2d6 9/day, Fatigued Mercy), acts during surprise round, divine health, aura of courage,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee shield flurry +28/+23/+18 (2d6+17/19–20) or unarmed flurry +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 (1d6+11)
Ranged thrown shield +26 (2d6+13/19-20)
Special Attacks Favored Enemy (Humanoid (Human) +6, Outsider (Chaotic)+2, Monstrous Humanoid +2), Smite Evil 2/day (+7 to hit, +7 Deflection modifier to AC, +4 damage)
RANGER SPELLS
3rd: Instant Enemy
2nd: Barkskin, Perceive Cues,
1st: Feather Step, Lead Blades, Resist Energy,
PALADIN SPELLS
1st: Bless, Lesser Restoration,
STATISTICS
Str 26*, Dex 22*, Con 22*, Int 14, Wis 18*, Cha 24*
BAB +15; CMB +23; CMD 38
Feats Bashing Finish, Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, Deflect Arrows, Diehard, Endurance, Iron Will, Improved Critical (Shield), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Shield Master, Stunning Fist (5/day),
Skills: Acrobatics +30 Climb +12, Diplomacy +27, Disable Device +6, Handle Animal +11, Heal +8, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (History) +12, Knowledge (Local) +15, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Linguistics +5, Perception +26, Profession (Soldier) +17, Ride +17, Sense Motive +23, Stealth +25, Survival +10, Swim +12,
Languages Common, Elven, Dwarven, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial,
Traits A Friend in Every Town, Reactionary, Indomitable Faith,
Drawback Naive
SQ SQ aura of good, detect evil (at will), wild empathy +16, +5 Survival for tracking, woodland stride, swift tracker, favored terrain (urban) +4, favored terrain (mountain) +2, hunter's bond (Companions),
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (1), wand of cure light wounds (40 charges), wand of lesser restoration (40 charges),
Other Gear Belt of Physical Perfection +4, Headband of Mental Prowess (Wis, Chr) +4, +5 Adamantine Bashing Heavy Shield with +1 Adamantine Returning Throwing 'Shield Spikes' (in this case actually just being designed as an offensive weapon), Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, Ring of Protection +3, Mithral Kikko +5, Helm of the Fortunate Soldier, Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Resistance +2, Pearls of Power (three 3rd Level, three 2nd level, five 1st Level), Quick Runner's Shirt, Bracers of the Falcon, 3,720 GP,
Made with 20 point buy and 2 Traits. Before the Template. Made with PC WBL.
Notes: Couldn't find either a price or benefits to an Adamantine shield, so I just charged him for twice the weapon cost (an extra 3k) and called it a day.
Mithral Kikko actually describes his usual armor surprisingly well, which I found amusing.
His skills do not include the Armor Check penalty (of -1) from his Shield, since that's usually stowed when he's not in direct combat.
Also note that most of the other avengers would be at least as high level as him, and Mythic to boot. This is technically a movie build (and a Pathfinderized one at that)...but the comic book version isn't notably less impressive (though his focus might change a bit), and I think it represents his power level well.
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Captain America routinely plays in same basic league as people who can throw cars and fight deities. He's way more than 6th level. Also, not a Fighter at all.
My Captain America stats:
** spoiler omitted **...
Except that he is never the one throwing cats.... and just because he is in the same group as the hulk and Thor doesn't mean he is an equal in power... just look at the justice league. You have superman side by side batman..
Deadman, I think you're making the same mistake that the Alexandrian points out: Steve Rogers must be 17th level, therefore Hulk and Thor are 20th level and Mythic.
If you instead assume Thor and Hulk (and Doctor Strange, to include spellcasters) are 20th level (non-mythic), then Cap is a lower level and its still consistent.
Thor can fight Frost Giants all day and never get tired. A frost giant is CR 9. How many can Cap take out?
Well 6 is mundane human maximum and Captain America is clearly above that. But he's not significantly above human maximum and a mid level martial like say Ruby, who is probably around level 10-12, could run circles around him in a fight. And he's certainly not up with someone like Cu Cuchulain whose clocking in around 17-19.
It's not really a "consensus" its just a good estimate.
I'm struggling to follow your reasoning on this. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that level six is somehow a human maximum*. I'm also not sure whether you arrived at your estimates of Captain America by watching movies, reading the comics, or what. Different products might give different impressions.
As Ssalarn offered earlier, Captain America is well above the human norm - largely thanks to the "Super Soldier serum" he was treated with. How far above the human norm, though? That's where you and I disagree.
Where physical ability is concerned, a good baseline for Captain America's physical attributes would be to place each of them well above 25, since that's an unaugmented human maximum. Examples of his physical abilities from the comic book canon include bench pressing over 1000 pounds, and attaining running speeds close to 50 miles per hour.
Where his fighting ability is concerned, Captain America is considered to be one of the preeminent hand-to-hand combatants and athletes of the Marvel Universe - bar none, including "gods" like Thor, Hercules, etc. His aim with his shield is virtually unerring, and he can strike multiple opponents with it. That's, again, a product of his skill - not of the weapon he uses. Geniuses like Tony Stark and Hank Pym, as well as gods of war like Thor, defer to him for combat planning and execution.
All that is a friendly way of saying, "Please reconsider Captain American's prowess!" :D
* There are plenty of historical examples of warriors whose prowess places them well above the 6th level of Pathfinder. :)
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Where physical ability is concerned, a good baseline for Captain America's physical attributes would be to place each of them well above 25, since that's an unaugmented human maximum.
20 is the unaugmented human maximum, and that's assuming you're at the outside of the bell curve. If you're assuming stat bumps from being 20th level, no one who is 20th level can be called 'unaugmented'. That's committing the fallacy that the Alexandrian points out.
For example, if you think that Conan should be modeled as a 25th level character, then you’re going to be constantly frustrated when the system treats him as a demigod and allows him to do all sorts of insanely powerful things that the literary Conan was never capable of. From there it’s a pretty short step to making pronouncements like “D&D can’t do Conan”
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Except that he is never the one throwing cats.... and just because he is in the same group as the hulk and Thor doesn't mean he is an equal in power... just look at the justice league. You have superman side by side batman..
And I'd argue that those two are also within a few level of each other. Batman's just an Advanced Investigator to Superman's Half-Celestial Mythic Guardian (but possibly lower level) Paladin.
Deadman, I think you're making the same mistake that the Alexandrian points out: Steve Rogers must be 17th level, therefore Hulk and Thor are 20th level and Mythic.
No, I'm not. I'd actually peg Thor as a CR 6 Outsider with Barbarian 12 and Champion 6 on top of it. And so on and so forth.
Also, you have the order wrong. I watched the Captain America movie and what he did in it, statted him up, then based their stats on his.
If you instead assume Thor and Hulk (and Doctor Strange, to include spellcasters) are 20th level (non-mythic), then Cap is a lower level and its still consistent.
Not a lot lower. He's in their league in a way that can't be explained away by more than a 5 CR difference or so. So he's, what, a minimum of 14th level if they're 20th, and that only with the advanced Template beefing him up.
Now if you want to argue they're only 17th level or lower, sure, we can start to talk about lowering his level...but that starts being inappropriate for heavy hitters like Thor as well.
Thor can fight Frost Giants all day and never get tired. A frost giant is CR 9. How many can Cap take out?
Based on his performance as compared to the Warriors Three (who each took out quite a few)? A bunch. Also...the Frost Giants in the movie bear little resemblance to the Pathfinder version, and are hardly the most impressive thing either Thor or Captain America fight. And they certainly aren't the most dangerous thing they fight in the comic books...
I actually agree with the Alexandrian's article on this in regards to real life...but comic book and action movie heroes aren't like those in real life, and are, indeed, earth-shatteringly more powerful in many cases. Holding them to 'level 6 because that's the most real people have', or even just a few above that, is frankly silly.
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Deadman, I think you're making the same mistake that the Alexandrian points out: Steve Rogers must be 17th level, therefore Hulk and Thor are 20th level and Mythic.No, I'm not. I'd actually peg Thor as a CR 6 Outsider with Barbarian 12 and Champion 6 on top of it. And so on and so forth.
Also, you have the order wrong. I watched the Captain America movie and what he did in it, statted him up, then based their stats on his.
I didn't contradict the order. I'm saying Cap doesn't have to be 17th level to do the things he does in the movies.
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Captain America routinely plays in same basic league as people who can throw cars and fight deities. He's way more than 6th level. Also, not a Fighter at all.
Cap, like Batman, is a bit of an odd example.
While he's slightly super-human (hence why most people say "High stats, 8th level or so"), he's also got some extra special abilities on top of "class".
If you accept that he's, say, an 8th level Human Fighter with the "Super Soldier" Template (Which boosts all your physical stats to 24, and increases your Intelligence to 18) then it works.
He's effectively a CR 10 creature, and he has the skills to back up his basic power level.
Cap's main strength isn't his raw power, but the fact that he's a battlefield commander. He's not "in the same weight class" as people who toss cars like toys. Not at all.
He gets the shit beaten out of him by those people in a straight fight. He can't take Hulk. Period.
But he CAN outmaneuver Hulk, outTHINK Hulk, and coordinate the rest of his team to the most effective strategy to defeat Hulk.
Which is basically what he did in The Avengers, and you'll note he never fights hand to hand these big threats. In The Winter Soldier the strongest enemy he faces is somebody with a similar serum that he has, and a mechanical arm.
You know what, I'm letting this get off topic by debating Marvel characters to death. Captain America's actual level isn't relevant here.
My point was this: People seem to think all the interesting characters are above a certain level, which can be limiting to what 'mundane' characters can do at high level. Even though 'mundane' stops around level 5 or 6.
Even if Captain America is 20th level, why shouldn't I be able to make a character more like Thor or Hulk? Not in the sense of being much more powerful than Cap, but in the sense of being a martial character whose primary skill is hitting stuff, but who still has some extreme abilities that a 'mere mortal' can't duplicate?
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Don't let the flavor (and the difference between Ex and Su is mostly flavor) limit the options for design.
And yes, I'm drawing a line between "flavor" and "theme of the class." "Rogues are martials and can't have magical abilities" is limiting design based on flavor. "Rogues can teleport a short distance to get behind an enemy, but not across the continent" is limiting a design based on a class's theme. (And that technically doesn't mean that "the greatest escape artist ever" as a rogue theme couldn't have "I get away from my heists by teleporting a mile away." Continuing our comic book analogies, would you say Nightcrawler from the X-Men is best represented as a cleric, fighter, rogue, or wizard? I'd say fighter or rogue, leaning toward rogue (stealth, swashbuckling, personable)... with the ability to teleport.
Here's my problem with this mindset and with your blog post in general. Antimagic does matter - for worldbuilding too, not just for combat.
How do you put Nightcrawler in jail? It's not a major problem in the X-Men books because, hey, he's a good guy, and jails in a comic book setting are expected to be ill-equipped to hold metahumans anyway. That's why you turn Bizarro or Darkseid over to the Justice League and not the NYPD.
But in most D&D settings powers like this are fairly widespread. Many, many outsiders can disappear in one place and reappear in another. Many mages can do so too. And your teleporting rogue can too, which means every rogue potentially can. That's a huge problem for any magical society to deal with, particularly since theft and infiltration are a rogue's bread and butter.
Making those abilities innate/trainable are fine. But making them nonmagical is not. When your teleporting rogue can be out of jail and back at the Smithsonian that same night, the next time he's caught the good guys have to decide between just slitting his throat or keeping him comatose. That's not a very heroic situation to be put in.
Antimagic is a plot point in the Order of the Stick webcomic multiple times. The Azure City jail is adequate to hold the Linear Guild prisoner because their resident succubus can't simply teleport outside to kill a guard and take his keys, or charm one to unlock their cell. Antimagic allows a dragon to hold onto a powerful wizard and monologue. Antimagic cells are used extensively in the Empire of Blood. Without it the fabric of any D&D or PF setting basically unravels.
Basically Cap is less of a Fighter and more of a Sensei Monk that bribed his GM into letting him use a shield.
grumble grumble fighters should have an inspire courage-like ability being the team leader would be a very fitting role for the class
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I didn't contradict the order. I'm saying Cap doesn't have to be 17th level to do the things he does in the movies.
Probably not quite. I must admit some of that was to get him all the Shield Feats sans prerequisites via Ranger 10 (which seemed ideal) and still have some Paladin and Monk in there for appropriateness...but the fact remains he requires significantly more than level 8, and to be within a few levels of the rest of the Avengers. I might make him as low as 12th level (with 4 less of Ranger)...but that'd be as low as I'd go. And that, he does pretty much need to have to do the stuff he does.
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Psyren: Non magical people do sometimes escape from prison. Maybe not often, but if we're talking about an ability that a 'houdini' class gets at 15th level, then the answer is that jails are ill-equipped to deal with 15th level characters, not that all jails should have antimagic zones.
High level characters are still pretty rare. When a 15th level necromancer is terrorizing the countryside, the local constably doesn't go out, arrest him, and put him in the antimagic ward at the jail. They rally some foolhardy and expendable adventurers to go murder him.
Nor would holding a character like that be impossible. Since it's a hypothetical ability, maybe there is some set of constraints you could build to hold him. Maybe you slap him with a geas and mark of justice. Maybe you stick him in a private demiplane (since he can teleport and not plane shift.)
Antimagic fields are the 'mutant inhibitor collars' of the D&D world. They don't work on everyone, and its kind of lazy writing in the first place.
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Psyren: Non magical people do sometimes escape from prison. Maybe not often, but if we're talking about an ability that a 'houdini' class gets at 15th level, then the answer is that jails are ill-equipped to deal with 15th level characters, not that all jails should have antimagic zones.
Sometimes, yes - but not "every time without fail regardless of who is trying to restrain you." A level 15 rogue should indeed be able to point and laugh at a regular jail. But if someone powerful locks him up - an archdevil, a dragon, a god - at some point you have to draw that line.
Teleportation is not an interesting solution to incarceration - it is simply "no." And at least with a spellcaster you can both restrain and gag him, not so much with the rogue.
20 is the unaugmented human maximum, and that's assuming you're at the outside of the bell curve. If you're assuming stat bumps from being 20th level, no one who is 20th level can be called 'unaugmented'. That's committing the fallacy that the Alexandrian points out.For example, if you think that Conan should be modeled as a 25th level character, then you’re going to be constantly frustrated when the system treats him as a demigod and allows him to do all sorts of insanely powerful things that the literary Conan was never capable of. From there it’s a pretty short step to making pronouncements like “D&D can’t do Conan”
Respectfully, I disagree with this premise.
Bell curve or no, 20 is an ability score available to a normal human character. From there, the Ability Score increases that come with level-gain are not supernatural. They reflect an increase based on experience, growth, and focus on a training regimen. A human being is capable of reaching a Strength of 25 without augmentation - a spell, an item, etc.
Where the Alexandrian is concerned, it doesn't so much prove that fictional heroes are only level 5 or what have you. It simply proves that there are shortcomings and inconsistencies in the mechanics governing the oldest roleplaying game. :)
Given that real life is generally regarded as E6, it looks like the highest you can have an ability score is 21. 22, if you prefer E8.
A human being is capable of reaching a Strength of 25 without augmentation - a spell, an item, etc.
And I'd argue that 20 levels of experience are themselves an augmentation.
You could get the mental ability scores up to 23 before level-gain if you use the aging system.
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You could get the mental ability scores up to 23 before level-gain if you use the aging system.
The aging system is a whole other problem.
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Without it the fabric of any D&D or PF setting basically unravels.
Lots of things in D&D or Pathfinder unravel if you think about them too hard. And antimagic field is an 8th level spell. If it's being permanently installed in government facilities instead of just being a situationally-useful spell or a terrain feature (e.g. Alkenstar), that's bloody expensive, and indicates a far greater number of spellcasters in the setting (both to create these zones and as prisoners in them) than the base assumption.
Without it the fabric of any D&D or PF setting basically unravels.Lots of things in D&D or Pathfinder unravel if you think about them too hard. And antimagic field is an 8th level spell. If it's being permanently installed in government facilities instead of just being a situationally-useful spell or a terrain feature (e.g. Alkenstar), that's bloody expensive, and indicates a far greater number of spellcasters in the setting (both to create these zones and as prisoners in them) than the base assumption.
Technically, you could make an antimagic field magic item without actually needing the spell itself. It'd make the Spellcraft DC 10+CL, I believe. That's doesn't require lots of spellcasters, but it does require gold, I admit. It'd probably work for a max-security prison's budget in a big nation.
And how would it break the universe that Houdini could escape from said prison? (Well, at least his cell. Doesn't mean he'd make it off the grounds.)
a roc does not collapse under the weight of its own skeleton
I'm not sure how much you think a roc weighs, but it's about 8,000 pounds. That's around the weight of an elephant
I don't think I've ever made that claim, purposefully or accidentally. It wouldn't break the universe, but given that much of Houdini's talent was PR and making things look harder to escape than they actually were, it would still be surprising. Of course, I'm assuming that the field isn't their sole defense.
To answer the point I think you were making about high Escape Artist modifiers, not Houdini specifically, it wouldn't. I would be fine with it.
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Here's my problem with this mindset and with your blog post in general. Antimagic does matter - for worldbuilding too, not just for combat.
How do you put Nightcrawler in jail? It's not a major problem in the X-Men books because, hey, he's a good guy, and jails in a comic book setting are expected to be ill-equipped to hold metahumans anyway. That's why you turn Bizarro or Darkseid over to the Justice League and not the NYPD.
But in most D&D settings powers like this are fairly widespread. Many, many outsiders can disappear in one place and reappear in another. Many mages can do so too. And your teleporting rogue can too, which means every rogue potentially can. That's a huge problem for any magical society to deal with, particularly since theft and infiltration are a rogue's bread and butter.
Making those abilities innate/trainable are fine. But making them nonmagical is not. When your teleporting rogue can be out of jail and back at the Smithsonian that same night, the next time he's caught the good guys have to decide between just slitting his throat or keeping him comatose. That's not a very heroic situation to be put in.
Again, I'm not saying you should make all of these abilities nonmagical. I'm saying whether or not they are magical is irrelevant to whether they are appropriate for the class.
You're also assuming that the only way to stop a teleporter is with anti-magic, which isn't true: the way to stop a teleporter is to use anti-teleportation effects, which might be magical, psionic, or mundane. In 2E, the rule used to be that living matter prevented ethereal travel, so you could grow moss all over the walls and door of your panic room so enemies couldn't travel ethereally. X-ray vision, even from a magical source, is blocked by sufficient thickness of stone, metal, dirt, or wood. So if you need to restrain a teleporter, get some magic manacles of phase-locking on them, or psionically block their teleportation, or put them in a lead-lined room. Or just keep them unconscious or drugged.
AMF is a merely a big, clumsy hammer in your toolbox. You don't need to use AMF to solve a problem that calls for a screwdriver or allen wrench.
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What if it was okay for him to be like that without Mythic, just by virtue of being a high-level fighter?Then, what's Mythic for?
Something other than being able to jump high enough to attack the (non-Mythic) wizard who literally flies all day.
You could get the mental ability scores up to 23 before level-gain if you use the aging system.The aging system is a whole other problem.
Agreed.
Rereading the old blog post on the Alexandrian I noticed that the levels requirements he suggests for extraordinary skills might actually be slightly higher than what is necessary in Pathfinder.
His example is Einstein as a 4th-5th level expert in order to reach a Knowledge skill of +15, let's run with that:
+8 skill ranks
+4 ability score bonus
+3 Skill Focus
In the case of our 5th level Einstein, that gives him a +15 bonus to Knowledge (physics) checks. He can casually answer physics-related questions (by taking 10) with a DC of 25. Such questions, according to the PHB description of the Knowledge skill, are among the hardest physics questions known to man. He’ll know the answers to the very hardest questions (DC 30) about 75% of the time.
And when he’s doing research he’ll be able to add the benefits of being able to reference scientific journals (+2 circumstance bonus), gain insight from fellow colleagues (+2 bonus from aid another), use top-of-the-line equipment (+2 circumstance bonus), and similar resources to gain understanding of a problem so intractable that no one has ever understood it before (DC 40+).
2nd level Human Expert:
+5 Ability score bonus (+2 racial bonus into intelligence)
+2 skill ranks
+3 Class Skill
+3 Feat: Skill Focus
+2 Bonus Feat: Scholar
= +15
Take 20 with circumstance bonus from scientific journals, top-of-the-line equipment, and insight from fellow colleagues yields a knowledge check result of 41.
If NPCs qualified for traits Einstein could be as low as level 1, actually.
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I don't think he should be cutting ghosts in half with an Ex ability and mundane sword. Ghosts are magical enough that I think defeating them with magic is reasonable.
By stating that something can be "magical enough" that you're then required to use magic to defeat it, you've just admitted that you want magic to be inherently superior to non-magic.
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Even if Captain America is 20th level, why shouldn't I be able to make a character more like Thor or Hulk? Not in the sense of being much more powerful than Cap, but in the sense of being a martial character whose primary skill is hitting stuff, but who still has some extreme abilities that a 'mere mortal' can't duplicate?
Ultimately, we're discussing hypotheticals and personal taste. I sincerely doubt this discussion will result in the next edition (or what have you) of Pathfinder. :)
With that in mind, while I'm not a fan of Martial Classes getting "supernatural" abilities, that doesn't mean I'm here to rain on your parade. By all means, include the things that make your game fun!
And I'd argue that 20 levels of experience are themselves an augmentation.
I mean, you're welcome to argue that, Ross... but we're clearly talking about two different things. Me spending the next ten years hitting the gym religiously and doubling my strength outputs is a different beast altogether from me finding a magic lamp whose Djinn magically doubles my strength outputs.
Cap's main strength isn't his raw power, but the fact that he's a battlefield commander.
Cap's main strength is his ability as a combatant. He's a very intelligent individual who has received military training in planning and operations from organizations ranging from the U.S. Army to S.H.I.E.L.D., but his bread and butter is, ultimately, hand-to-hand, melee, and missile combat.
He gets the s*!! beaten out of him by those people in a straight fight. He can't take Hulk. Period.
Depends on the comic book, really. In the inaugural issues of "The Ultimates", he basically did just that. But I digress, because ...
But he CAN outmaneuver Hulk, outTHINK Hulk, and coordinate the rest of his team to the most effective strategy to defeat Hulk.
... none of those things are mutually exclusive from being counted among the best combatants in the entire world. Skill, maneuvering, quick thinking? All hallmarks of superior warriors.
Which is basically what he did in The Avengers, and you'll note he never fights hand to hand these big threats. In The Winter Soldier the strongest enemy he faces is somebody with a similar serum that he has, and a mechanical arm.
You're basing your opinion on the basis of a movie, though. That's like me making an argument about Pathfinder just on the basis of what is shown in its comic book.
But let's look at it from a different angle. Let's consider the Feats that Captain America exhibits in the canon:
Combat Expertise
- Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Defensive Combat Training
Dodge
- Mobility
-- Spring Attack
Fleet
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Point-Blank Shot
- Far Shot
- Precise Shot
- Shot on the Run
Run
- Improved Shield Bash
-- Shield Slam
--- Shield Master
- Shield Focus
-- Greater Shield Focus
Throw Anything
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
... And that's just what's demonstrably shown and/or outright stated. It doesn't include Feats that could very reasonably be argued (e.g., Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization), or ones that are heavily implied by the character's depictions (e.g., Acrobatic, Lightning Redlexes). Heck, it doesn't even give him the benefit of maxing out trees that are signature items for his character.
And we haven't even gotten to his "I can hit multiple people with one throw of my shield" gimmick, or his "I can ricochet my shield off of a variety of surfaces before hitting someone with it" ability.
And, as a reminder, a 20th level Fighter has 21 total Feats. Captain America's demonstrated capabilities exceed that, and we're already robbing him.
You're basing your opinion on the basis of a movie, though. That's like me making my argument about levels based on what I see in the Pathfinder comic book.
But let's look at it from a different angle. Let's consider the Feats that Captain America exhibits in the canon:
Combat Expertise
- Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Defensive Combat Training
Dodge
- Mobility
-- Spring Attack
Fleet
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Point-Blank Shot
- Far Shot
- Precise Shot
- Shot on the Run
Run
- Improved Shield Bash
-- Shield Slam
--- Shield Master
- Shield Focus
-- Greater Shield Focus
Throw Anything
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization... And that's just what's demonstrably shown and/or outright stated. It doesn't include Feats that could very reasonably be argued (e.g., Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization), or ones that are heavily implied by the character's depictions (e.g., Acrobatic, Lightning Redlexes). Heck, it doesn't even give him the benefit of maxing out trees that are signature items for his character.
And we haven't even gotten to his "I can hit multiple people with one throw of my shield" gimmick, or his "I can ricochet my shield off of a variety of surfaces before hitting someone with it" ability.
And, as a reminder, a 20th level Fighter has 21 total Feats. Captain America's demonstrated capabilities exceed that, and we're already robbing him.
I feel like this only highlights how limited feats are. Just to be capable of using a shield and throwing it requires an absolutely obscene amount of them for results that are really not that amazing.
That's contingent on the assumption that you limit yourself to a specialized build. :)
I'd argue with Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, he just has good saves and stats. Likewise, I don't think how fast he can move is specifically stated, so Run seems superfluous. As for Improved Trip, I'm sure he's provoked an AoO at least once through the series, and his CMB is already good. Defensive Combat Training appears to be almost literally useless, since as a full-BAB class his HD matches his BAB.
I'd also like to see where he uses Spring Attack.
Also, I think Cap's shield is some sort of artifact. Unique alloy of special metals that no one can replicate, so it looks like a minor artifact, at least.
Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes are explicitly stated in the canon, though obviously in other terms. Iron Will correlates with a specific enhancement that prevents him from succumbing to hypnosis, mind control, or agents/chemicals/etc. that are meant to affect his mental state. :)
That could easily be reflavored extra levels and higher base saves. Enhancing someone to be stronger, better, faster is, as has been said before in this thread, not too far from the idea of levelling up.
I find it amusing that, barring Shield Master (which I don't see the need for, the shield is simply enchanted as both a weapon and a defensive item and Cap doesn't TWF), none of those feats have level requirements higher than 8.
So.. Cap is a level 6 shield style ranger in an E6 game?