I will put this simply. When I play a high level fighter my goal is to be Hercules. Barbarians are not Hercules. Rangers are not Hercules. The Fighter is the best Hercules, but he just can't do it.
The barbarian would probably make a better Hercules. That dude would lose it and go berserk all of the time.
Fighters have to pick feats that are effectively permanent (retraining aside)It *is* worth noting that starting at 4th level a fighter gets to swap out a bonus feat without having to go to the retraining rules, and does it every 4 levels.
One reason games I have run and played in ahem had particularly effective fighters in that their players were not afraid to adjust feats as the abilities of the other players, focus of the campaign, and availability of magic items made ding so useful.
It is also worth noting that you created an entire line of products that seem to have started with an attempt to make the fighter's 'class options' a good deal more flexible and modular. An apparently successful line of products mind you.
The talented fighter takes the resources the fighter has and makes them a step closer to the customizability and investment requirements that spells represent. It lets fighter mix and match the things he gets in a way that the existing structure (despite being half feats) doesnt allow. And for my money, it makes the fighter a much better class.
You dont need to take a whole archetype to be able to weild polearms in one hand, or to get a bonus to damage because you moved. The same way the wizard doesnt need to take burning hands, scorching ray and fireball in order to take wall of fire. Thats a big step in the right direction in my mind.
At this point its a bit silly that its a feat, and not just a fighter class feature.
Unless, of course, that's not what you want your fighter to do. Then, as a class feature, it's useless.
Also, its a bit silly that the fighter has to spend 5 class features qualifying for flying edge masacre, when the wizard just takes the gate spell. Not to mention the fighter has to wait until 15th level to do awesome stuff, the druid gets wild shape at level 4. In my mind, making martial character wait until late in the game (where many groups never even play) and expend relatively limited resources to do cool things when casters dont have to, is a bad solution to the problem.
It's not like the wizard didn't have to wait to be able to cast that gate you mention. He didn't start at 17th level any more than the fighter started at 15 to get the Flying Edge Massacre ability.
And again, we clearly have different ideas of awesome. I think the fighter does some pretty awesome things long before 15th level, yet your claim is that he has to wait that long or at least implies that nothing he does before getting flying edge massacre is awesome. So what if the druid is wild shaping at 4th? It's a cool power, but the way it actually accomplishes things like defeating foes is pretty mundane - more mundane than a similarly-leveled fighter's magic sword, in fact.
This might be a good time to remind folks that the original topic of this thread was bending the distinction between Ex and Su abilities, and while that does border discussion the martial/caster disparity, that shouldn't become the primary topic of the thread. We've had that thread. About a million times.
How about people talk about why it is that certain Su abilities need to remain magic, or how they feel about superhuman feats being Ex? Instead of skipping to 'You'll pry my nonmagic fighter out of my cold, dead hands?', when no one is advocating that?
DrDeth - Being in the minority and flooded with opposing posts doesn't make you wrong. Consider, though - as you reminded me a few weeks back - that this is a team game with story elements, not a real story simulator. Now, the fighter can focus on acquiring magic items that allow him to exceed 'extraordinary' limits (flying cloaks, helms of underwater action, etc.) while all the other classes get to bend reality based on their class features, but it does put him at a disadvantage since the others are filling their magic-item-capacity with combat boosters. The only alternative I can think of is a set of fighter-only feats that mock plausibility just as badly as magic does, but with (Ex) instead of (Su) written at the end.
Personally I think the fighter does pretty good, and a lot of the complaints of disparity are blown out of proportion. But I have to admit that adhering to a stricter interpretation of 'real' does hinder the class at high levels, when so few enemies are willing to stand and fight like honorable villains rather than teleport around conjuring zombie hornet swarms and belching nerve gas.
Sure, I have no issues with the Fighter acquiring more magic items like that. Heck, make it a class feature. They had it back in 3rd with the OA Samurai. If the fighter could "sacrifice" wealth to boost one ancestral special item (like his sword) that would give a significant boost.
And, my problem with ALL the classes being able to to everything is that D&D is supposed to be team game. Sure my Sorc has to cast Fly on the fighter once in a while. So? The fighter spends a lot of time keeping the nasties off the sorcerers back while I cast spells. Teamwork.
Teamwork is what makes D&D unique. The players don't compete with each other, they form a TEAM. The fighter doesn't need to be able to fly if his mount can or he can buy boots that can or if the sorc will cast fly on him.
Cloemcm is right- the Fighter used to have GREAT saves. Conan-like saves. The fact that he's weak willed now is not because he can't cast spells, it's a bad legacy from 3rd edition. Give him a Fighter feat that gives +1 to all three saves or +4 vs the Enchantment school or re-rolls or allows the bonus vs fear to all Mind-effecting.
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SKR! Does a water-balloon/crossbow specialist fighter fall under the scope of your plan for high powered, supernatural martial abilities?
I can't tell exactly how much snark you intend with that question, but I'll answer assuming it's actually zero: if the designers can set aside the idea that a "nonmagical" fighter can't do amazing things without using overt magic, maybe they need to set aside the idea that self bows and crossbows need to work differently from each other (for example, in 13th Age self bows and crossbows work identically).
In other words, just because it's physically impossible for someone in the real world to fire a heavy crossbow five times in six seconds doesn't mean a powerful fighter in a fantasy game shouldn't be able to do so.
But throwing water balloons is OP, no matter what. ;)
Sure, I have no issues with the Fighter acquiring more magic items like that. Heck, make it a class feature. They had it back in 3rd with the OA Samurai. If the fighter could "sacrifice" wealth to boost one ancestral special item (like his sword) that would give a significant boost.
Why is it okay that the fighter have his own magic powers via items, but not just having magic(ish) powers? 'Sacrificing' wealth is actually the same as buying an item. The point of the OA Samurai ability was so that you could keep the family heirloom you started with at first level, not an actual ability.
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@Sean - Interesting read. I agreed with some elements, disagreed with others. I agree that there's a bias that nonmagical characters have to be constrained to "realism", and the only thing allowed to go outside of that realm is magic.
Sometimes people in rules debates try to say "But real-world logic!" Ever notice how people reply with "This is a fantasy game where you can fly and shoot fireballs" and not "This is a fantasy game where you can wear armor and swing a sword"? Nobody seems to want to admit it, but folks seem to equate "fantasy" with "magic".
Or to put it another way, you're not allowed to be "fantastic" except through the use of magic. This in turn means that if you're not allowed to use magic, then you're not allowed to be a fantasy hero. You're stuck being a realistic, non-fantasy hero.
If Fantasy=Magic, then anyone who wants to be fantastic (i.e., go past about 6th level) needs access to magic. Fantasy=Magic makes it a requirement that your fantasy hero either casts spells, "steals" spells via potions or UMD, has spells given to him (via an ally casting buffs on him), or wears spells (magic items).
I don't think removing the distinction between Ex and Su solves this problem. In fact, I think it reinforces it. It addresses "let fighters do fantastic things" by saying "let fighters do magic"—this itself admits that you need magic in order to be fantastic.
Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?
Currently, fantasy=magic and fighter=nonmagic, resulting in fighter=nonfantasy. The idea of removing the Ex/Su distinction addresses that result by removing "fighter=nonmagic", but I personally would much prefer to leave "fighter=nonmagic" intact and instead remove "fantasy=magic", allowing nonmagical fighters to still be fantastic in their nonmagicalness.
How about people talk about why it is that certain Su abilities need to remain magic, or how they feel about superhuman feats being Ex?
I agreed with that. That was in my first post. I think the other martial classes, esp the Barbarian, etc, need more super-human abilities- as options. Limited flight. Limited teleport (shadow walk?). Etc. I dunno about Wish, but even some form of that isn't crazy for the Paladin. Heck, "by Crom" is almost Wish like, isn't it?
As long as they are options, this is a great idea.
I dont think there was any attempt to hide the fact that they were trying to give a spell like resource to martial characters. This is in fact how you fix the martial caster disparity. You have to give everyone a resource that is as flexible, powerful, varied, and low investment as spells.
Think about this for a moment. How much investment does a wizard put into an individual spell? Almost none right? Assuming he can get a hold of it, he gets 2 for free every level, and the rest cost a pitance of gold. Sorcerors get them all for free, and can swap them out a bit a time. Spells are flexible and require very little investment of character resources. I dont need to take the fireball feat, or the fireball archetype to cast fireball. I just learn fireball.
Fighters have to pick feats that are effectively permanent (retraining aside), and though they get alot, its no where near the variety a cleric gets when choosing his spells every day. But who here things any one feat is better then a single spell of their choice? I certainly havent seen that feat. Is there a feat that compares to the gate spell? Anywhere? How about miracle? Yet the fighter needs to pay more for his feat then the cleric did to cast miracle.
ToB gives martial characters something that follows the same structure as spells, and it does this intentionally. Because that structure is what makes casters powerful. If wizards had to take a feat, or get a class ability for each of their spells, we wouldnt have this problem. ToB for once, takes the problem head on. And it would have been near perfect if it got a little more love and attention. But its not the game some people (those who want normal fighters) want to play. Except they dont realize they already werent playing that game. They were just handicaping a third of the classes in the process.
You're right, I don't want to have "Spells, but the components are swinging my sword instead of wiggling my fingers". I want my Fighter to be able to do awesome things without having to get a hand-me-down version of the system that wizards use.
I want to swing my sword at the base of the tower so well that the impact cuts it clean and causes it to slide off before toppling.
I want to punch the ground so hard I go flying into the air, take the rest of my attacks against things I pass on the way up, and land at the end of the arc on my feet with a smirk.
I want to put on such a display of sheer manliness that I cowe my enemies and charm my potential allies.
I want to throw my enemies into empty space so hard that empty space breaks.
I want to be such a good tactician I can predict the enemies move mid-combat and interrupt it before he even decides to do it.
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To be fair, those fighter-specific feats really just are their class features. Sort of like Magus arcana or Orcale Revelations or alchemist discoveries but not as interesting or flavorful.
Don't forget not as powerful. If you want to AO someone after you trip them, you need Greater Trip. If you want Greater Trip, first you need Improved Trip. If you want Improved Trip, you need Combat Expertise. If you want Combat Expertise, you need at least a 13 Int. It's like that for the majority of the options that aren't just "add modifier X to action result number Y". Which is a shame, since they simplified combat maneuvers so greatly in Pathfinder that even the most math-challenged people at our tables are generally able to work with those figures fairly easily.
Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?
That's what Sean is suggesting, actually. Those could all be Ex abilities given to a nonmagic fighter, as long as the designer can get past the impulse to label them Su.
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Hey, I happen to think the Alchemist is pretty darn balanced, and he's the water balloon CLASS!
Sure, I have no issues with the Fighter acquiring more magic items like that. Heck, make it a class feature. They had it back in 3rd with the OA Samurai. If the fighter could "sacrifice" wealth to boost one ancestral special item (like his sword) that would give a significant boost.Why is it okay that the fighter have his own magic powers via items, but not just having magic(ish) powers? 'Sacrificing' wealth is actually the same as buying an item. The point of the OA Samurai ability was so that you could keep the family heirloom you started with at first level, not an actual ability.
Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.
It doubles your spending cash, in a way. You sacrifice a extra 1000 gps magic item for 1000 gps of credit, instead of selling it for 500.
SKR! Does a water-balloon/crossbow specialist fighter fall under the scope of your plan for high powered, supernatural martial abilities?I can't tell exactly how much snark you intend with that question, but I'll answer assuming it's actually zero: if the designers can set aside the idea that a "nonmagical" fighter can't do amazing things without using overt magic, maybe they need to set aside the idea that self bows and crossbows need to work differently from each other (for example, in 13th Age self bows and crossbows work identically).
In other words, just because it's physically impossible for someone in the real world to fire a heavy crossbow five times in six seconds doesn't mean a powerful fighter in a fantasy game shouldn't be able to do so.
But throwing water balloons is OP, no matter what. ;)
I agree with this statement 100%
In my home games though I removed firearms and have replaced them with appropriate crossbows. Crossbows work as they do currently, but taking an exotic weapon proficiency equivalent to firearms makes them attack touch AC.
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SKR! Does a water-balloon/crossbow specialist fighter fall under the scope of your plan for high powered, supernatural martial abilities?I can't tell exactly how much snark you intend with that question, but I'll answer assuming it's actually zero: if the designers can set aside the idea that a "nonmagical" fighter can't do amazing things without using overt magic, maybe they need to set aside the idea that self bows and crossbows need to work differently from each other (for example, in 13th Age self bows and crossbows work identically).
In other words, just because it's physically impossible for someone in the real world to fire a heavy crossbow five times in six seconds doesn't mean a powerful fighter in a fantasy game shouldn't be able to do so.
But throwing water balloons is OP, no matter what. ;)
I feel like water balloons are more of an alchemist thing anyway. Keep those mundanes away from our alchemical goodies!!
That's what Sean is suggesting, actually. Those could all be Ex abilities given to a nonmagic fighter, as long as the designer can get past the impulse to label them Su.
Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?
Sure.
Hey, I happen to think the Alchemist is pretty darn balanced, and he's the water balloon CLASS!
Word. Bomb focused alchemists can be absolutely horrifying engines of destruction...right up until they run out of daily uses of the class feature. With no way to recharge besides taking 8 hours to rest, any alchemist worth their salt who isn't doing 15 minute adventuring days is going to find themselves holding back some on fights. Not because they have to, but because they want to be better prepared for the party's next challenge.
SKR! Does a water-balloon/crossbow specialist fighter fall under the scope of your plan for high powered, supernatural martial abilities?I can't tell exactly how much snark you intend with that question, but I'll answer assuming it's actually zero: if the designers can set aside the idea that a "nonmagical" fighter can't do amazing things without using overt magic, maybe they need to set aside the idea that self bows and crossbows need to work differently from each other (for example, in 13th Age self bows and crossbows work identically).
In other words, just because it's physically impossible for someone in the real world to fire a heavy crossbow five times in six seconds doesn't mean a powerful fighter in a fantasy game shouldn't be able to do so.
But throwing water balloons is OP, no matter what. ;)
Especially if they are Alchemist Fire Filled ballons... with ponies on them...
Prepare to be Pony-Flamed...
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Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.
Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
In an attempt to get this thread back on track, what are your thoughts on the Tome of Battle's initiator system? Does it fit into the, "Extraordinary Abilities can be as good as Magic" mentality or is it more of, "Designers think that things need to be magical in order to be useful?"
minor pOINT of fact: Being superstrong doesn't make you able to jump well.
Point: Marvel's The Thing from FF. He can lift 85 tons, and he's as agile as a normal man despite his weight and bulk...but he can't do Hulk leaps. He can't actually MOVE FASTER then a normal person.
But he can throw heavy stuff just as far as a normal guy throws light stuff.
Being able to jump is an effect of power, i.e. str over time. Good jumpers can exert their strength very quickly, just like good runners.
That's why jumping is tied into movement rate.
The Hulk, who can jump three miles easily, or potentially into OUTER SPACE...is capable of jumping at multiple Mach velocities. (Jumping 3 miles means you'd have to start your jump out at about Mach 3, equal to a 30.06 rifle bullet).
Once you start putting in super jumping, what you're really putting in is Enhanced Movement, i.e. 'lightfoot techniques'.
Amazingly, the fighter already has movement techniques, in the form of Armor Mastery.
Take a normal feat, give it to a Fighter, and watch it become a Fighter Technique. Then...you give a slight bonus to the guy with no magic.
Dash (General, Training/Mundane)
You move faster then others.
Normal: This feat increases your movement rate by 5'.
Fighter: Multiply the movement rate increase by your Armor Training bonus.
Mundane: You add your Skill Focus (Jump) to the final distance of any jumps.
And you turn feats into the engine of change instead of what's holding the fighter back.
==Aelryinth
You're right, I don't want to have "Spells, but the components are swinging my sword instead of wiggling my fingers". I want my Fighter to be able to do awesome things without having to get a hand-me-down version of the system that wizards use.
I want to swing my sword at the base of the tower so well that the impact cuts it clean and causes it to slide off before toppling.
I want to punch the ground so hard I go flying into the air, take the rest of my attacks against things I pass on the way up, and land at the end of the arc on my feet with a smirk.
I want to put on such a display of sheer manliness that I cowe my enemies and charm my potential allies.
I want to throw my enemies into empty space so hard that empty space breaks.
I want to be such a good tactician I can predict the enemies move mid-combat and interrupt it before he even decides to do it.
So what is it about the maneuvers and stances of tome of battle dont give you that? I am pretty sure most of that was possible (except maybe the break empty space part but that sounds kind of cool).
I am honestly asking. What is the issue with the ability to somehow propell yourself into the air and attack dudes on the way up comes in the form of a 'maneuver' who's text block in the book looks suspiciously like a spell?
However this is exactly what the 1st edition Fighter was. They had some of the best saving throws in the game, because they didn't have magic and focused all of their training on being able to overcome whatever the magical world they existed in could throw at them.I'm not sure why 3.0+ has insisted on making the Fighter the stereotypical dumb-jock. PF did a decent job in updating their fighting abilities from 3.X, but they're still 2/3 pathetic in the saves department.
A lot of people bring this up but I don't think a lot of people have really looked closely at the 1e saves. Fighter saves actually start out on the weak side and end up pretty good, but matched in a number of ways by both wizard and cleric saves. So what's the real story? Fighters had a very favorable table for improving because the saves were on the same schedule as the attack matrix - meaning they improve every 2 levels. That enables them to catch up and become really good overall at about 8th level, and dominant when the fighter hits his apex at 17th level (until the wizard and cleric catch up 3-4 levels later). Notice that 8th level point is when most demi-human fighters are stopping advancement and, according to a lot of anecdotes people bandy around about how 1e got played, about the point most campaigns are ending/petering out. If those claims are true, most people rarely played the game when fighters had the best saves. So I question how many people really saw this effect, of fighter resistance to anything requiring a saving throw, in action. I certainly question the idea that it was an important aspect of the 1e fighter's design as a class.
Personally I think the best thing to also help with alot of these things for the mundanes may be to let them get the Improved/Greater combat feats for free once they meet a certain BAB level (like power attack). This frees up alot of space for all martials and lets fighters start having a REAL niche (the guy who can Two Weapon Fight, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Sharpshoot, AND Disarm with ease).
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At this point its a bit silly that its a feat, and not just a fighter class feature.Unless, of course, that's not what you want your fighter to do. Then, as a class feature, it's useless.
Also, its a bit silly that the fighter has to spend 5 class features qualifying for flying edge masacre, when the wizard just takes the gate spell. Not to mention the fighter has to wait until 15th level to do awesome stuff, the druid gets wild shape at level 4. In my mind, making martial character wait until late in the game (where many groups never even play) and expend relatively limited resources to do cool things when casters dont have to, is a bad solution to the problem.It's not like the wizard didn't have to wait to be able to cast that gate you mention. He didn't start at 17th level any more than the fighter started at 15 to get the Flying Edge Massacre ability.
And again, we clearly have different ideas of awesome. I think the fighter does some pretty awesome things long before 15th level, yet your claim is that he has to wait that long or at least implies that nothing he does before getting flying edge massacre is awesome. So what if the druid is wild shaping at 4th? It's a cool power, but the way it actually accomplishes things like defeating foes is pretty mundane - more mundane than a similarly-leveled fighter's magic sword, in fact.
Yes they both waited. They definitely both waited. However the Fighter would have spent feats. Did the wizard get every single summon monster spell, planar binding spell, dimensional anchor, and such? Spells only have the prerequisite of level. Spells do not have the prerequisite of knowing other spells. Do I think this is a problem? I do. But in the opposite direction. There should be less feat chains. Feat chains are dumb, and feats should scale more or give better benefits. Weapon focus should automatically upgrade if you are a fighter. Weapon Specialization, shield specialization, and shield focus too.
Toughness should give 2 HP per level past level 10. Combat maneuver feats should automatically upgrade and lose their stupid requirements (You need 13 intelligence to trip someone? Do you see Transmutation spells having strength requirements?). Whirlwind attack should be based off Cleave, not mobility. You don't even provoke an attack of opportunity when using Whirlwind attack, so that's just dumb. Dodge should give free movement speed.
In an attempt to get this thread back on track, what are your thoughts on the Tome of Battle's initiator system? Does it fit into the, "Extraordinary Abilities can be as good as Magic" mentality or is it more of, "Designers think that things need to be magical in order to be useful?"
Extraordinary ability. These are abilities that can be used an "unlimited" number of times per day, can be refreshed in combat, and generally augment MARTIAL abilities not replace caster abilities. The only similarities to casting are
1. Selection similar to a Sorceror2. Some mimic spells, but then again the spells they mimic make sense for a well trained enough guy (mimicking blur)
Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.
Multiply the HP a fighter receives from Toughness by his Armor Training. Treat the extra HP as having come from 'training for hit points' per the Skills and Power...in other words, he gets a training time and benefit for nothing. The barbarian can eventually catch up to/surpass the fighter, but he will have to spend a lot of time and money to do so.
Balance.
==Aelryinth
Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk. What do you think of my earlier mention of Thor as a 20th level fighter?
In an attempt to get this thread back on track, what are your thoughts on the Tome of Battle's initiator system? Does it fit into the, "Extraordinary Abilities can be as good as Magic" mentality or is it more of, "Designers think that things need to be magical in order to be useful?"Extraordinary ability. These are abilities that can be used an "unlimited" number of times per day, can be refreshed in combat, and generally augment MARTIAL abilities not replace caster abilities. The only similarities to casting are
1. Selection similar to a Sorceror
2. Some mimic spells, but then again the spells they mimic make sense for a well trained enough guy (mimicking blur)
Agreed. Sometimes it annoys me when people scream "WELL IS CASTING A SPELL!!! HIS IS NOW MAGIC!!" when an ability says it acts like, say blur, when in reality its just quicker and easier to reference a spell that already does a certain thing and saves word space. For instance, with the blur thing, where the wizard is waggling his fingers and suddenly smudges out a bit, the martial is taking advantage of his super human speed and training to move so fast he looks like a blur and getting his exact location becomes more difficult.
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Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?
Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
A lot of people bring this up but I don't think a lot of people have really looked closely at the 1e saves. Fighter saves actually start out on the weak side and end up pretty good, but matched in a number of ways by both wizard and cleric saves. So what's the real story? Fighters had a very favorable table for improving because the saves were on the same schedule as the attack matrix - meaning they improve every 2 levels. That enables them to catch up and become really good overall at about 8th level, and dominant when the fighter hits his apex at 17th level (until the wizard and cleric catch up 3-4 levels later). Notice that 8th level point is when most demi-human fighters are stopping advancement and, according to a lot of anecdotes people bandy around about how 1e got played, about the point most campaigns are ending/petering out. If those claims are true, most people rarely played the game when fighters had the best saves. So I question how many people really saw this effect, of fighter resistance to anything requiring a saving throw, in action. I certainly question the idea that it was an important aspect of the 1e fighter's design as a class.
However this is exactly what the 1st edition Fighter was. They had some of the best saving throws in the game, because they didn't have magic and focused all of their training on being able to overcome whatever the magical world they existed in could throw at them.I'm not sure why 3.0+ has insisted on making the Fighter the stereotypical dumb-jock. PF did a decent job in updating their fighting abilities from 3.X, but they're still 2/3 pathetic in the saves department.
While there's some truth to this, the fighter at least had the potential to be as tough as nails. A 3.X fighter will always, ALWAYS be an easily manipulated puppet.
I agree with you here. Teamwork is awesome. The problem that tends to arise here is when that contribution is uneven. The sorcerer providing the flight and the fighter providing the pain is a good, symbiotic relationship.and I don't think anyone wants everyone to do anything, but giving the fighter...A buffing/controlling caster is a good example of a way to compliment the fighter though. What really feels bad (imo) is when you bump into a summoner or barbarian or battle cleric who's almost as good as you at fighting in addition to having so much extra lumped on top of it.
Right. But that's one issue here with theory crafting, like that of the three-body problem. We all know D&D is a team game, with usually four players, often each taking a niche. (not always, but often). But it's hard to theory craft this. Sure, one can show such7 such build does so many DPR, but when our fighter gets buffing from both my sorc and the bard- KATY BAR THE DOOR!!!! Holy unstoppable machine of death, batman! The synergy is incredible.
And yes, once the spellcasters get 9th level spells, with so many 3.5 spells super buffing the spell casters melee abilities, I found martials were useless. In fact spells that boost a FULL arcane casters' melee abilities should be deleted. Leave a few for the Magus, delete the rest.
Yes they both waited. They definitely both waited. However the Fighter would have spent feats. Did the wizard get every single summon monster spell, planar binding spell, dimensional anchor, and such? Spells only have the prerequisite of level. Spells do not have the prerequisite of knowing other spells. Do I think this is a problem? I do. But in the opposite direction. There should be less feat chains. Feat chains are dumb, and feats should scale more or give better benefits. Weapon focus should automatically upgrade if you are a fighter. Weapon Specialization, shield specialization, and shield focus too.
Maybe another answer is to re-impose limits on what the wizard can get like 1e had. Alternatively, there was an interesting take on gaining magic spells back in Dragon 216 called "Paths of Power" that were, in effect, feat trees for spell access. The article was by Wolfgang Buar and Steve Kurtz.
And I think some feat scaling, particularly for the weapon focus/spec and vital strike feats, would be a good idea as well. Save the feat trees for really adding new fighting-style based options. I always did like the OA martial arts system - which were basically prototypes of the 3e feats. They were effectively trees, in a way, but very flexible and most offered a new maneuver to the style that was otherwise unavailable.
Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk. What do you think of my earlier mention of Thor as a 20th level fighter?Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
Pretty much... Captain America managed to keep up with the rest of the party because... yes. In all actuality, Cap is actually weaker than most of the Avengers...
And in truth, I personally see fighters as more like Hawkeye than anythijng... He has NO magical abilites... he is just really good at hitting things... and he is utterly dependent on his rediculous selection of arrows (i.e. Mr. Golfbag). Hawkeye is actually rather... lame though when put next to Iron Man, Thor, or the Hulk...
Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk.Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
He's not. But who is the leader? Who do you want to rescue you? Hulk would likely smash you as collateral damage. ;-)
It's not bad. Though the guy must have been way over WBL to be able to afford tomes that boosted Str and Con by +5 and still have enough for the levitating chariot, flying goats, and belt of giant strength. (I won't bring up the hammer - we all know that one's an artifact. Who inherits an artifact?! I mean, come on! Monty Haul GM!)
It's a hammer of thunderbolts, actually. (That's where the requirement for a belt of giant strength (and in 3.X, gauntlets of ogre power) comes from. To match the mythical Thor's equipment.)
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Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk. What do you think of my earlier mention of Thor as a 20th level fighter?Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
Most of Thor's power comes from his hammer, don't they? I mean, he can't fly, shoot lightning, open portals, etc. with a regular mallet he picks up off the side of the road. He doesn't even know how to make a weapon return to him when it's thrown if it's not daddy's present to his bestest son ever. Thor is the situation as it stands now: over-reliance on magic items to make a difference in end-game. Sure, he's very strong and extremely tough, but that's not all we're shooting for.
Now, combine Capt America, Taskmaster, Thor, and Green Arrow into one person and we're talking. Even taking away their equipment, that's a genius tactician with great outdoors skills, leadership ability, fantastic aim, a mastery of close-quarters fighting, enhanced strength and endurance, and a unique ability to adapt his fighting style at the drop of a hat to take on any opponent who comes his way. None of those have to be even remotely magical, either.
Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
Sure, I like this. Just so as he can't CAST fireball, but yes, block it, sure.
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Instead, I'd like to see nonmagical fantasy. How about if a fantasy-level swordsman could cut ghosts in half, deflect boulders and rays, cut through stone walls like butter, shatter magic, and even cut a wedge out of a fireball or breath weapon, all using nonmagical skill?Again, my point is that if you don't have to label an ability as Ex or Su, it doesn't matter whether a swordsman is doing X with magic or skill, where X is He just does it.
It matters to my heart. ;) I enjoy being able to say "He's just that good" instead of "Look out, he's a magic user!" To me, magic seems like the "easy way" of being fantastic; being able to be fantastic through skill/training just feels better to me.
But, personal preferences are personal. :) At least we're agreed that fighters need to be able to do those things, whatever we may call them.
Captain America isn't nearly as strong as Hulk.He's not. But who is the leader? Who do you want to rescue you? Hulk would likely smash you as collateral damage. ;-)
He deserves to be an Avenger, and Batman deserves to be in the Justice League.
But Captain America and Hulk are not the same level, in game terms. I'm offering Thor as someone who is on the same level as Hulk, but with a different set of abilities based on a differing class.
Do you think Thor could be a fighter?
It's not bad. Though the guy must have been way over WBL to be able to afford tomes that boosted Str and Con by +5 and still have enough for the levitating chariot, flying goats, and belt of giant strength. (I won't bring up the hammer - we all know that one's an artifact. Who inherits an artifact?! I mean, come on! Monty Haul GM!)It's a hammer of thunderbolts, actually. (That's where the requirement for a belt of giant strength (and in 3.X, gauntlets of ogre power) comes from. To match the mythical Thor's equipment.)
Thor is a Mythic Fighter with some very powerful items, one of which is a artifact. In some versions he has magic powers, true, but not so much in the new films. I am not sure if you took Thor's str boosting items away that he'd still be stronger than Cap. of course that whole Immortal thing help, but that comes from Mythic. He;s got more mythic levels than Cap.
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Never said "mundane in what a real person can do". Pretty much I want the Fighter to remain Captain America (at higher levels), allowing the Barbarian to be the Hulk.Because, one class should remain mundane at its heart. Just one.Mundane as in Ex, I can agree with.
Mundane as in 'can only do what a real human could do' went out the window when you start fighting frost giants, dragons, and planar beings, or taking a ballista bolt in the chest and continuing to fight.
The Fighter can already do Captain America before 10th level. He shouldn't just stay Captain America forever when other classes are starting at above-average-Joe, moving on up through Hit-Monkey, Punisher, Wolverine, Deadpool, Thing, Incredible Hulk.
The class should progress on scale with his contemporaries.
**EDIT**
I take that back. The Fighter can't do Captain America. He can do really fit guy with a shield, but Cap is more than that, capable of leading and inspiring his teammates to be more than they otherwise would be, possessed of a keen tactical eye, with peak reflexes and a near indomitable will. The Fighter doesn't have any of those things.
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It's not bad. Though the guy must have been way over WBL to be able to afford tomes that boosted Str and Con by +5 and still have enough for the levitating chariot, flying goats, and belt of giant strength. (I won't bring up the hammer - we all know that one's an artifact. Who inherits an artifact?! I mean, come on! Monty Haul GM!)It's a hammer of thunderbolts, actually. (That's where the requirement for a belt of giant strength (and in 3.X, gauntlets of ogre power) comes from. To match the mythical Thor's equipment.)Thor is a Mythic Fighter with some very powerful items, one of which is a artifact. In some versions he has magic powers, true, but not so much in the new films. I am not sure if you took Thor's str boosting items away that he'd still be stronger than Cap. of course that whole Immortal thing help, but that comes from Mythic. He;s got more mythic levels than Cap.
What if it was okay for him to be like that without Mythic, just by virtue of being a high-level fighter?