ALchemist works very well. He has a good int score (he forged 6 links on his maesters chain in 2? years, which i think is about as fast as the smartest kid in the group of students we know about)
A few vivisectionist levels could give him both poison use and a bit of sneak attack, but not the rest of the alchemy kit. In PF, it is an ok approximation. I'd probably stick to lore warden/poisoner rogue/duelist if I want to be a purist, but that could work as well.
He definitely doesn't have uncanny dodge, though :) .
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I also agree that GoT is an E6 world.
The Viper: CG Rogue (Poisoner) 3/Swashbuckler 3. Shown feats of Weapon Focus (spear), Dazzling Display, and Combat Expertise. The rogue levels account for his mastery of poison and give him the skill points to forge his Maesters chain. The swashbuckler gives him his Dex and Cha focused abilities and martial skills.
The Moutain: CE Barbarian 2/Fighter 4. Shown feats of Power Attack, Improved Sunder, and Diehard. Gregor is prone to fits of rage and it talks about how he is relatively fast and quick for a man of his size (hence rage, fast movement, and uncanny dodge), while also being a trained warrior.
Oberyn as a monk? Mountain as a barbarian? Really? Did you watch the series? Or read the books?
Yes. Doesn't mean we agree with you on things.
Both are fighters, period. Maybe Oberyn has some levels in rogue or alchemist for his background in poisons and at The Citadel, but nothing else.
Oberyn does nothing Fighter-y at any point. Swashbuckler all the way, man. Plus some Ninja for skills and poison use, anyway.
And the Mountain clearly has some Fighter levels, but given his psychotic rages and general toughness, some Barbarian also seems appropriate.
I'm not discussing from a metagaming/mechanics point of view, but from a background point of view.
Ok, I give it to you that Oberyn is a rogue, he was always roguish in his past endeavours. But ninja?
And The Mountain is a noble from Casterly Rock, he is a knight, has a castle, lands and men. How could he be a barbarian? Also, his rage problably comes from a injury in his head, which gives him some real bad headaches and makes him drink too much fleur-de-lys.
But, if RPGs are just plain miniature/board games to you, his toughness could be explained with the feat of the same name, or other mechanics that don't involve him being a barbarian.
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And The Mountain is a noble from Casterly Rock, he is a knight, has a castle, lands and men. How could he be a barbarian?
Because barbarian is a class that encompasses more than just a savage and nomadic way of life. Look at the urban barbarian for example. Greggor is known for flying off the handle and then doing things that are impressive even for a man of his stature: like beheading a horse or squashing someone's head like a grapefruit.
But, if RPGs are just plain miniature/board games to you,
I would really prefer a conversation without accuing people of role playing badly. There are many different ways to do a barbarian.
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Being a member of the nobility doesn't preclude one from being a member of the Barbarian class.
Read the part under Background and then tell me he isn't CE with levels in Barbarian.
Personally, as I listed above, I have him with levels in both Fighter and Barbarian.
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I'd kinda argue that the classes are approximations of someone's abilities and don't ncessarily inform the entire background of a character. Or else you would have to roll everyone who has a banner and a horse as a Cavalier.
I'm kinda a fan of the Armored Hulk for the Mountain. He can move a bit faster in fullplate, gets his furious rage...
I don't know if we can know oberyns aligment on the G/E axis. He certainly flaunts his disdain for the cultural moores and traditions of his society enough to shoot into chaotic, but besides killing the mountain we really don't know what motivates him. Anyone, Good, Neutral, or even Evil could justifiably get into the revenge business to take down the mountain after what he did
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I'm not discussing from a metagaming/mechanics point of view, but from a background point of view.
Mechanics are a tool to properly represent who the character is and what they do. Nothing else. Now, some mechanics have built-in flavor, it's true...but not to the extent you're implying.
Ok, I give it to you that Oberyn is a rogue, he was always roguish in his past endeavours. But ninja?
He traveled to exotic lands and learned other ways of fighting. And Ninja much better reflects the necessary mechanics than Rogue does. The combination is good enough for me.
Heck, let's have a look at the class description, shall we?
When the wealthy and the powerful need an enemy eliminated quietly and without fail, they call upon the ninja. When a general needs to sabotage the siege engines of his foes before they can reach the castle walls, he calls upon the ninja. And when fools dare to move against a ninja or her companions, they will find the ninja waiting for them while they sleep, ready to strike. These shadowy killers are masters of infiltration, sabotage, and assassination, using a wide variety of weapons, practiced skills, and mystical powers to achieve their goals.
What of that seems inappropriate to The Red Viper of Dorne? Maybe the mystical power...which would be why I wouldn't give him any of the supernatural Ninja Tricks. There. Done and justified.
And The Mountain is a noble from Casterly Rock, he is a knight, has a castle, lands and men. How could he be a barbarian? Also, his rage problably comes from a injury in his head, which gives him some real bad headaches and makes him drink too much fleur-de-lys.
To quote the Barbarian class description (emphasis mine):
These brutal warriors might rise from all walks of life, both civilized and savage, though whole societies embracing such philosophies roam the wild places of the world. Within barbarians storms the primal spirit of battle, and woe to those who face their rage.
Being of the Barbarian class is a matter of attitude, not being raised in a particular culture, and Gregor has the attitude. Now, he's possibly a bit more disciplined and trained than many Barbarians, certainly...and that's supported by also having levels in Fighter, IMO, but he's not incapable of being a Barbarian just because he grew up somewhere 'civilized'.
But, if RPGs are just plain miniature/board games to you, his toughness could be explained with the feat of the same name, or other mechanics that don't involve him being a barbarian.
Listen up, you don't get to denigrate other people's play styles just because they aren't your own...and that comes off as insultingly dismissive. work on your tone.
Also, for the record, I consider thematics far more important than mechanics...which would be why I use the class that best reflects the flavor of the character, not the one that happens to be conveniently labeled but doesn't actually reflect them well. Saying anyone who fights must be a Fighter is putting mechanics (the importance of writing 'Fighter' on their sheet) over theme (ie: what they actually should be able to do), at least that's how I feel about it.
And yeah, he might easily have Toughness, or Diehard, or several other things, but he also goes into berserk rages. That says 'Barbarian' loud and clear.
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How about something like this?
"It is a big and beautiful world. Most of us live and die in the same corner where we were born and never get to see any of it. I don’t want to be most of us."
Middle-Aged Human Ninja 1/’Lore Warden’ Fighter 5
TN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +9
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+0 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 59 (1d8+1/5d10+10)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Guisarme +8 (2d4+4/x3, slashing)
Special Attacks +1d6 Sneak Attack
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Combat Reflexes [1st], Vengeance (Story) [Human], Weapon Focus (Guisarme) [Fighter1], Combat Expertise [Fighter2], Improved Trip [Fighter2], Bloody Vengeance [3rd], Weapon Specialization (Guisarme) [Fighter4], and Spear Dancer [5th].
Skills Acrobatics +12 (6 ranks +3 dex +3 bonus), Bluff +6 (2 ranks +1 cha +3 bonus), Craft (Alchemy) +11 (5 ranks +3 int +3 bonus), Diplomacy +7 (3 ranks +1 cha +3 bonus), Intimidate +7 (3 ranks +1 cha +3 bonus), Knowledge (History) +7 (1 rank +3 int +3 bonus), Knowledge (Geography) +7 (1 rank +3 int +3 bonus), Knowledge (Local) +10 (4 ranks +3 int +3 bonus), Knowledge (Nature) +7 (1 rank +3 int +3 bonus), Knowledge (Nobility) +9 (3 ranks +3 int +3 bonus), Perception +9 (6 ranks +0 wis +3 bonus), Perform (Dance) +8 (4 ranks +1 cha +3 bonus), Sense Motive +10 (6 ranks +0 wis +3 bonus +1 trait bonus), Stealth +10 (4 ranks +3 dex +3 bonus) and Swim +5 (1 rank +1 str +3 bonus).
Languages Common & 2 more
Traits World Traveler (Sense Motive) & Strength of the Sun
SQ Poison Use, Maneuver Mastery (+2), Weapon Training (Polearms; +1)
Character Traits
World Traveler (Sense Motive): Select one of the following skills: Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), or Sense Motive. You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks with that skill, and it is always a class skill for you.
Strength of the Sun: During the day, you gain a +1 trait bonus on all Charisma-based checks.
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But, if RPGs are just plain miniature/board games to you,
Gonna stop you right htere.
This is uncalled for. That attitude is toxic.
Class is not background. Some classes have certain elements of flavor built in. Some don't. And many gamers implement their own flavor.
Those gamers are NOT treating RPGs as "just plain miniature/board games". Those gamers ARE using flavor, background, and characterization to shape their mechanical choices. They're just not using the ones you agree with. That does not mean they're doing something wrong. That does not mean that they're treating RPGs as just a miniatures game.
They're roleplaying.
A player whose character is a stealthy fighter raised by the Red Mantis Cult and has never had any contact with any Asian-analogue culture wants to use Ninja as his class? No problem.
A government agent utterly dedicated to the law? He could be a rogue. Anyone that insists all rogues must be thieves hasn't gotten with the program.
A barbarian that falls into a quiet, tranquil, hyper-focused trance when they rage? Perfectly fine interpretation of the rage ability.
There is more than one way to play the game. And there is more than one flavorful, richly detailed, roleplaying-oriented approach to each class.
And people that use them are not having badwrongfun.
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My version, assuming E7 (which I prefer to E6 for Pathfinder), and built with 25 point-buy:
"It is a big and beautiful world. Most of us live and die in the same corner where we were born and never get to see any of it. I don’t want to be most of us."
Middle-Aged Human Ninja 2/Swashbuckler 5
? Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
DEFENSE
AC 18/20, touch 15/17, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 Dex, +1 Dodge, +2 Combat Expertise)
hp 51 (2d8+2/5d10+5)
Fort +2, Ref +12, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Longspear (w/Power Attack) +12/+5 (1d8+13/19-20x3, piercing)
Special Attacks +1d6 Sneak Attack
STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16
Base Atk +6; CMB +7 (+12 with Trip, Disarm, and Sunder); CMD 22 (17 flat-footed)
Feats Combat Expertise, Cosmopolitan, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Spear Duelist,
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +8, Craft (Alchemy) +12, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (History) +7, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Local) +9, Knowledge (Nature) +7, Knowledge (Nobility) +8, Perception +9, Perform (Dance) +7, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +8, Swim +6
Languages Common & 5 more
Traits Indomitable (as Indomitable Faith), Reactionary, Maester-Trained (+1 to checks with Knowledge - History and Knowledge - Nature, and one is always a Class Skill for you),
Flaws Hedonistic
SQ Swashbuckler Finesse, Poison Use, Combat Trick, Nimble +1, Ki Pool (4 points), Panache (3 points), Swashbuckler Weapon Training, Charmed Life 3/day, Deeds,
Equipment Masterwork Studded Leather Armor, Masterwork Longspear,
Note: Spear Duelist is a custom Feat that makes a spear Finesse-able and makes it count as one handed for things like Swashbuckler abilities. It's a custom Feat, but hardly broken in context.
He basically used the advantages of reach, Ki, and Panache to ruin Gregor's day for a while there (and can do the same with most opponents), and he's an excellent But...he's a bit fragile when you get right down to it.
@Zonugal:
Swasbuckler is still a better choice than Fighter, IMO, even Lore Warden. And he was wearing armor. Leather Armor, mind you, but still armor.
I restrained myself to using what is on the pathfinderard website...
Also I didn't stat him with any equipment, but yeah he'd have some light armor on.
Just presume that build above is Oberyn during times of leisure.
I think it was duly harsh.
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I restrained myself to using what is on the pathfinderard website...
Also I didn't stat him with any equipment, but yeah he'd have some light armor on.
Both very reasonable decisions. I stand by my version, though. :)
Just presume that build above is Oberyn during times of leisure.
Seems reasonable.
@Mikaze:
I tried to say all that. You did it better, though. :)
Thanks, though I regret posting while irritated.
Ahninrep, I apologize for being unduly harsh. I don't like posting angry.
I'm not sure it came across as that harsh, honestly. Fervent? Certainly. Harsh? I dunno.
Of course, some of that may just be the difficulty of taking anything coming from your avatar that harshly...
A ninja and rogue with the poisoner archetype are almost the exact same thing, minus a few Asian weapon proficiencies, and nothing about Oberyn screams "ki pool" to me, though he definitely has panache.
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A ninja and rogue with the poisoner archetype are almost the exact same thing, minus a few Asian weapon proficiencies, and nothing about Oberyn screams "ki pool" to me, though he definitely has panache.
Charisma based additional attacks, faster movement, and enhanced jumping? What about that shouldn't he have?
That said, Poisoner Rogue does also work.
I'm still not convinced he used Reach as much as fighting defensively with Acrobatics. He Dodged and Parried and didn't really thrust where the Mountain couldn't reach him. I think a one handed spear would work just fine and free up more options. I don't think he would need Ninja and Swashbuckler for the Ki since Panace can do the same stuff, Poisoner and Ninja would be interchangable, IMO.
Just something to add to the earlier conversation about lore warden v swashbuckler. Lore wardens retain light armor proficiency it's just the shield they lose that Oberyn still has.
I'm still not convinced he used Reach as much as fighting defensively with Acrobatics. He Dodged and Parried and didn't really thrust where the Mountain couldn't reach him. I think a one handed spear would work just fine and free up more options. I don't think he would need Ninja and Swashbuckler for the Ki since Panace can do the same stuff, Poisoner and Ninja would be interchangable, IMO.
Agreed, I dont think he was using a longspear (which are usually 8-10 feet long, basically a pike), but rather just a normal spear wielded two-handed, he was using his Combat Expertise feat to parry.
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You could make him a swashbuckler using a Small Sized Spear. It would count as a one-handed piercing weapon and could be used with two hands as needed. I think it would be slightly longer than the shortspear and not a full spear in length so it fits with what he was using in the show. Otherwise, I would just give him shortspears and be done with it.