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In the past, I've run with the assumption that players can buy or sell whatever items they want, pretty much as written in the rules. When you get 4,000 gp, you head to town and buy your custom +2 ability score slotted item, no questions asked, et cetera. I've done this mostly out of convenience, since it requires no effort and just lets the players run wild.
Unfortunately, it makes magic items totally uninteresting. A huge drive of mine is to make magic items more "special." I want the players' +2 longsword to have a story, maybe even a name. Magic items are a wonderful fantasy staple, but in Pathfinder, they're a commodity, not a story piece.
At low levels, this is easy to avoid. The players simply can't afford too many expensive toys, and the encounters don't assume they're bedazzled in ioun stones and gleaming, winged armor that lets you shoot lasers out of your eyes.
In higher level games, though, how do you strike a balance between giving the players access to the toys they want and keeping them from cherry-picking items out of the rulebook?
Well, you can houserule things to make your toys more interesting, such as making them scaling and giving them interesting effects that way the longsword cast light then daylight and goes up in enhancement so its not replaced by the next +3 longsword they find.
Or you can just move to another game because this one runs on a treadmill and your gear is supposed to be replaced to keep up with expectations. Your bonus isn't really a bonus because you get the bonus to play catch up. Nice right?
Edit: oh! And some people remove some of the +1's and their related items to get rid of the magic item needs and give that scaling inherently that way they can only include magic items with interesting effects and people aren't just automatically filling their shoulder slot with a +x cloak of resistance to stay alive.
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Two issues:
1. How to make magic interesting. House rule (see suggestions forum) to incorporate "plus" items into leveling. The current Pathfinder system does not bode well for giving "plus" items a story. No matter how interesting you make that +2 sword's background, it's gone the minute a +3 weapon comes along. That +2 Belt of Strength was worn by the famous General Armageddon when he slew the Pit Fiend Malicious, thus saving the world from a demon war? That's great, but I'm pawning it off so I can buy a +4 Belt. Don't bother with a story, I'm moving to +6 as soon as I can.
2. The Magic Shoppe? An eternal question on these forums. Since the game is pretty much fashioned mechanically on the idea players will get "plus" items and be more likely to die if they don't, you can't restrict too much on those. Just have the players role-play their search for items, whether by barter, trade, or other ways. If you don't approve of what they want, don't let it into the campaign.
Its not too hard to have scaling items. Rather than hand out treasure handout out magic experience. 5000 gold = 5000 magic experience. Then you have a choice. Either let the players apply that how they want to their items maybe require them to have the appropriate crafting skill or come up with a list of advancements for each magic item and when they turn in experience you tell them who their weapon gets better.
All this is really doing is skipping the middle man of the PCs going to town finding a wizard and paying her to upgrade their item. They will still get other treasure at say 1/2 of WBL and can buy unique items or occasionally find unique items.
Combine this with some backstory and a cool name for the items and players won't want to exchange their old sword for a new sword.
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It's quite easy, and requires only two steps:
Dump magic items you know they want, assume the rest will be sold.
Make a good number of the items "unique'. For example, that +2 LS is +3 vs Orcs. It's -3 if wielded by any but a ".....". Thus, the sales price is crud. I'd even make it more unique.
"Orc-slayer is a +2 LS, +3 vs Orcs, and glows when they get within 60'. It is made of a unique fey metal alloy, making it a additional +5 on hardness and +10 HP, but weighs 1# less. The wielder gets +2 on all saves vs orc spells, etc, and has +2 perception vs orcs. If wielded by any but one of elf bllod , it's merely a +1 sword, with only the add'l metal traits. There are rumors of a special ceremony that can make this weapon +3 or even a Bane weapon, which will require considerable sacrifice or quests."
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In higher level games, though, how do you strike a balance between giving the players access to the toys they want and keeping them from cherry-picking items out of the rulebook?
Pretty simple. Get rid of them. Or almost all of them anyway.
Pathfinder and dnd before it have a basic assumption of alot of wealth in magic items representing a significant portion of a character's power as he levels up.
I've created a set of house rules to toss that out the window. The players get the majority of that 'power' in the form of abilities they get to choose from as they level up.
On the other hand, magic items are drastically changed. No permanent magic item can be crafted by normal means. They are rare and unusual. And since all the +x comes from abilities they get inborn, all those items are compeltely non-existant. There is no +2 swords. There is ingnus the flaming blade, weilded by the barbarian king of [insert setting reference], or Arcanus, the holy bow of [insert setting reference]. But they are just a flaming sword and a holy bow, no +x in there.
Consequently the magic items players find, remain with them. They become a part of the character and their story. And there is the expectation that characters will only get a handful (2-5 depending) of magic items through their whole career.
Potions, scrolls, and wands I leave alone for the most part, but magic items cant be bought or sold. Its like trying to move the mona lisa (if say a private collector had possesion of it). Yes its valuable, but its also a priceless piece of history, and probably would garner alot of both positive and negative attention if you tried to sell it. You would have to make contacts and go through a whole song and dance to either try and sell, or try and buy it.
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Unfortunately, it makes magic items totally uninteresting. A huge drive of mine is to make magic items more "special." I want the players' +2 longsword to have a story, maybe even a name. Magic items are a wonderful fantasy staple, but in Pathfinder, they're a commodity, not a story piece.
In Pathfinder World Magic items and Magic is much much more common then say in Lord of the Rings. It just depends on the fantasy realm really.
But Pathfinder does have a Low magic Point Buy system and you as the DM can alter all loot drops to make magic items more uncommon. Like they might be able to buy those 4k magic items...but those 20k+ items arent in every shop and typically created by powerful casters...so those powerful casters have those items...If they want that +6 Int headband then they are going to have to defeat some guy/thing wearing a +6 headband of Int because no shop has over +2. Perhaps a dragon who has been hoarding one for 500 years.
I see two similar problems here masquerading as the same issue.
What used to be the role of magic items back in 2nd ed is now the role of artifacts. Some people don't understand that a change happened. Some people do and like it. Some people do and don't like it.
The other issue is magic item shops. This runs into the problem of not making any sense, as the amount you would have to invest in avoiding theft is prohibitively expensive. I haven't ever seen a magic item shop in published material that wasn't also a church or magic school, but they have long been rumored to exist, so I assume I just never read that supplement.
I see two similar problems here masquerading as the same issue.
What used to be the role of magic items back in 2nd ed is now the role of artifacts. Some people don't understand that a change happened. Some people do and like it. Some people do and don't like it.
The other issue is magic item shops. This runs into the problem of not making any sense, as the amount you would have to invest in avoiding theft is prohibitively expensive. I haven't ever seen a magic item shop in published material that wasn't also a church or magic school, but they have long been rumored to exist, so I assume I just never read that supplement.
I am pretty sure there are places to buy magic items in sandpoint arent there? That and the magic shop you can build in kingmaker/ultimate campaigns kingdom building rules. So it is there, unrealistic economy and all.
Actually, the core rules do have a solution to "ye old magic shoppe" in the game mastery section. It may not be a perfect system but I've never had problems with it.
Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
Using your own example, when someone gets 4000 gp they need to go to a small city (loosely defined as more then five thousand people) and even then there is a 25% chance that the item that they're looking to get isn't there. Looking in anything less then that means that you have a pretty abysmal chance of finding it as the total number of magic items above that is randomly generated (I personally roll on the random loot tables when generating these items, but your mileage may vary).
Actually, the core rules do have a solution to "ye old magic shoppe" in the game mastery section. It may not be a perfect system but I've never had problems with it.
Imo, that's really not a solution. Its actually really not that great because it means what +1's your party gets are luck based. Nine times out of ten I've found it aggravating more than anything. Doesn't do much to give players what you want, what they want, or make them special. I don't know why making your ability to finding items luck based would be. Doesn't help a lot of martials really only want one type of weapon, the one their specialized in. So great, the store has or an enemy dropped a +2 Guisarme! Too bad I use a scimitar and burned my feats on using the scimitar.
Another option is to seriously limit the magic items available to the PCs, and then weaken/edit the monsters & challenges to compensate for it. All this talk of PCs needing to have a + whatever stat booster is predicated on the fact that the PCs will be facing monsters as stated. Simply weaken them and then lower the amount of magic items found, all set.
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A GM I once played with managed to subvert this in the most awesome way I ever saw.
His world had a g&@ d@*n economy that was different from place to place. In one place, potions were half off. In another, magic armor was discounted 30%. In yet another city, magic weapons were three-for-two.
He was also really good at handing us way more wealth than we should have and then taking it away before we could spend it.
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MAGICAL ITEMS: There are no generic +1 items. Each and every item has a history (like all the items from the Baldur's Gate computer game series). YOMS has a list of specific items in stock (takes a lot of work on my part) but is fun. If a player holds any magical item until the end of the campaign their time with the item is added to the history and the player gets to add “future” history. What I mean by that is the player chooses what happens to the weapon up to the point where it can be rolled as random treasure again. For instance, “My vorpal katana, Le Lame Cuisinart, is handed down to my daughter, and to her son, and down through my family for five generations until the city is razed by a horde of hobgoblins and seized by Scorg, who, with the use of Le Lame Cuisinart, rises to the position of tribal chieftan. In order to fuse the warring tribes together, Scorg's shaman suggested he undergo a pilgrimage to gain the blessing of their dark god. Scorg never returned and the blade (which, in French, is the word “lame”, btw) has been lost since then.”
And if a player wants something that YOMS doesn't have, then the shopkeeper can always place an order with the supplier, but it'll take a few weeks to get there and then a few weeks to get a response. In light of the impending doom looming over the frightened peasants, can the party afford to wait "6 to 8 weeks for delivery?"
My groups are primarily ROLEplayers and I have found that they generally enjoy it a lot. The versimilitude of having only some items from which to choose instead of just anything from the books appeals to them quite a bit. Also, as they level, you should swap out some items and replace stock with better items (basically, treat it as a real store with actual inventory instead of a wish list).
This solution may not work for ROLLplayers. It really comes down to talking to and knowing your players. If you think they'd see it as realism and enjoy it as part of a good story, then do it. If, however, they'll see it as punitive restrictions just so they can't have their cool stuff, then I might avoid it.
One thing I've found is that when they save the princess or undo the wizard's experiment gone wrong and the High Muckety-Muck commissions a magical item tailored for the player, they enjoy that item far more than had they just spent jeeps on it.
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The way I work it is that there are no dedicated magic shops.
There are alchemists who can sell standard potions (i.e. from the Core Rulebook), and magic supply shops usually have spell scrolls for sale of CL 5 or lower... Again, only spells from Core.
I roll for a random number of items otherwise available somewhere in town, but PCs usually need to make Diplomacy (gather information) checks to find the sellers. And then, standard prices are 150% of list, which can be haggled down.
If a PC wants a specific item, she'll have to commission its manufacture... Requiring a price negotiation, then 50% down and 50% on delivery. I then make the various checks to see if the item has a curse, drawback, or enhancement. Often, my players will pay to have their existing gear upgraded. Of course, that takes time, and they'll be without it while the crafter has it.
At the same time, I ask my players for an item wish-list periodically, and try to make sure that they get some of what they want as loot.
This also encourages PCs to take item creation feats.
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Players tend to liquidate items that are:
Unattractive. A +1 Khopesh is not going to kept for very long when no one in the party uses or is interested in khopeshes.
Wildly expensive compared to their WBL: A Buccaneer's Breastplate is a great find for a level 3 party. That said, selling it for 12k GP will buy the whole party a +1 weapon and a set of +1 armor - arguably a much better deal than a +1 breastplate and circumstantial access to Water Walk.
The best way to limit the shopping syndrome is to give the party items they will actually want to use. Instead of dropping a +1 Khopesh, make it a +1 Greatsword for the barbarian. Instead of a Buccaneer's Breastplate, make it a small armory stash with a set of +1 armors and a bandolier filled with useful potions.
The other day I looked over a friend's character sheet from a campaign we played years ago and I realized that most of the magic items he was carrying had little notes next to them detailing where and how he found it.
Personally I find it much more interesting when the 12th level paladin of Iomedae fights with the same +1 longsword he found in the catacombs of Wrath at level 2 (appropriately upgraded, of course) than when he swings by ye olde magic shoppe and grabs a generic weapon because all the RNG is throwing at him is Lucerne Hammers.
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In my homebrew campaign, I tell players flatly that they can't just walk into "Ye Olde Magick Shoppe" with a shopping list. Adventurers are fairly rare, let alone casters of high enough level to make magic things. They are around, if you can find them, but they don't go around making things on speculation.
Divine scrolls, wands and potions are another matter, especially potions. They are generally available at temples.
Our GM also uses the wishlist as mentioned above, as well as dropping items that we want/will use vs. generic loot.
Archer finds a +X Composite Longbow
Barbarian finds a +X Bastard Sword
Fighter finds a +X (insert weapon of choice)
etc...
Personally I love the idea of weapons with a compelling backstory that I can add to. Just as long as I can reasonably upgrade the weapon to stay competitive.
In the last campaign I played, nobody in a party of 5 had any of the "big 6" magic items. Instead we all had items that we found/won that played to our specific character concept. Did this require extra work for our GM? Yes. Did we appreciate those items more? Absolutely.
I just say, "There are no magic shops. Earn your magic, not buy it."
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I think the best way to do it would be to incorporate the boring +1's and the big six into the characters themselves rather than having them be drops or purchases that you have to get as a tax to keep up with CR.
The reliance on wearing a bunch of fancy magical items in Pathfinder is one of my biggest grievances with the system, really. How many great heroes in fantasy/mythology do you know that did anything resembling that? Most heroes have their one Legendary Weapon that carries them through the day; Arthur has Excalibur, Bilbo has Sting. If the boring and generic items were removed from the game and just became things that you got naturally as you level up and become more legendary heroes then that Ultimate Hammer of Evil Smashing the Barbarian just found will have a lot more meaning, because he knows something this kickass is unlikely to be replaced. It becomes his signature weapon, and in years to come bards will sing of how he totally crushed a tarrasque's face with it and it was awesome.
Make the items upgreadable. @TOUC@ That +2 Belt of Strength that was worn by the famous General Armageddon when he slew the Pit Fiend Malicious, thus saving the world from a demon war, can be selled, yeah, but if you offer a X% discount for upgrade it, you have the trick. Calculate the money they will get, the money the will spent, and apply the little discount. Example: the belt they have costs 4000 gp, so they can get 2000gp. The belt they want costs 16000, the diference is 14000. 5% discount because blablabla, they obtain it for 13300.(hey, its something!) Now we have the +4 Belt of Strength that was worn by the famous General Armageddon when he slew the Pit Fiend Malicious, thus saving the world from a demon war. It can be Role played by a lot of forms, like "reforging" dented old swords of the past, "awakening" dormant powers, whatever fits your campain/world.
PD: Even you can let them "remake" a bastard sword to a scimitar, ala 13h warrior film. :/
What if you made some stats for various Wizard shops? Maybe the wizard is level 5 and now runs a shop. What would he make? Scrolls maybe potion? You have a level cap and you could scale it up.
The PC want a magic weapon or armor. It takes two people to make that work. One to make the item the other to enchant it. Is the Blacksmith in town good enough to a masterwork item?
Not every town/village/city/hamlet will have what the PC wants. That make the item creation feats more important. Then when the Wizard is making something you can have the other PC do a small side quest. Like the Wizards needs a rare component that the other part members could get.
When PCs have to work for something it becomes important to them. Use that.
I like and usually make the things that way, but the rules about towns specify the items available by price in each by number of inhabitants. Use it as a reference, but remember that, as a GM, you can change whatever you like, for the sake of the game.
I'm sorry but the 75% chance as presented in the core rules is in no way "luck based". The PCs can come back a week later and try again. It will most certainly be available at that point. If you run that system exactly as written, and your PC group has no crafting ability to amount to anything, you'll be fine. Seriously, by RAW, the best thing in Magnimar for example might be nothing more than a +2 Glamered Longsword (at 11,000). The Base total is only 12,800 gp (via M,CoM).
If you want to go to the trouble of finding out which, if any, Medium or Major items are present above the bases total, why it's absolutely no trouble to do so. Have a look at the Iconics, they certainly look as if they adhered to this sort of system as they made their way up from 1st level (one imagines).
On this que, idd like an opinion and advice on this idea:
Say i'dd give my players "enhancement bonus" for free on all their Proficient attacks, at a rate of +1 per 4 levels, starting at 3 (so +5 at 19).
Say i'dd give my players the same for AC but at 2nd level (so +5 at 18th level).
And finally saves +1 per 4 levels, starting at 2nd (so +5 at 18th).
How much would you drop gold generation to accommodate for this change?
The money and time issue is certainly something that the DM can and should control regardless of whether or not you have crafting characters in your party. Realistically, most PC crafters will be Wizards and every Craft feat that they take, ratchets their personal power down. Khrysaor makes a good point that it's supposed to be easier than it was in 3.5 (though a 1st Lv wizard can't craft a +5 sword, any sword really. He has to be Lv 5 to get the feat. The DC will also bump up since you don't have the prereq Level; a special rule for weapons).
Control the money, control the PCs time and you shouldn't have any problems with crafting. Same is true with the core system in the GM Guide.
I will fix that by giving the items intelligent. Any +2 or above items will have intelligent and will have characters. This way, player will be bond with the items, if one wish to get a better items, he get sell the items/friend he has and buy a new one. However, those items will count as NPC, so they will react to what the players did to them which makes the players think how to get rid of them without hurting their feelings and treat them more than just an item. Another way would be when one spend enough time and bond with a item, the item grow stronger with the PC. Even +1 items. Say a fighter who treats his masterwork scythe very well and he never left him by his side even when everyone else having +3 or higher items, the bond between them is strong. When a PC treats his weapon as a friend, I often reward those players and have their weapons power up as part of the story.
I found that using don jons magic shop generator helps rather than rolling for percentage of whats there it stocks a shop of inventory.
My pirates in my Skull & Shackles just went to a village best item on the list Oytugh.hide.
@tsuruki:
Not very much, as those changes are worth nearly nothing.
Also, I predict that the player of the sorcerer/wizard/witch will flipp you the bird.
I like his idea. It's pretty simple tsuruki, just figure the cost of the +defensive times (which everyone wants) and subtract that.
Also, folks, there are some classes & feats from 3.5 that allow a PC to enhance one special item. The Kensai, the OA Samurai, and a feat from BoED.
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I think poisoning the well is a bad idea unless the players have ways to find out, or at the very least reasons to suspect, that the products they're purchasing will not be up to code.
Selling magic items is a bit like selling climbing or diving equipment. If you sell shoddy gear, word is gonna get around fast, and odds are you're gonna have some pissed off customers at your door.
And pissed off adventurers is frequently really bad for your health or the health of anyone in the immediate vicinity.