It seems to be a lot of money for a defensive measure that is almost guaranteed to fail. The cheapest you can buy is +2 enhancement for SR 13, which is worthless past the third module in most APs and half-way through most campaigns, which is when you're likely to have the money to afford this in the first place. The +5 version of the enchant is only SR 19, which most outsider and enemy casters will have to roll a 3 or 4, minimum, to pass against, provided they don't have anything like Spell Penetration. Magic armor enchants being an exponential cost curve, why is this enchant so expensive for something that becomes all but worthless late game? Just seems like something that might be better as a +gp value enchant.
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Nope, you're seeing the same problem I've been seeing with Spell Resistance since I first started playing 3.5:
For players, it's basically garbage.
In the "if I were to redesign things" category, spell resistance would be more like Globe of Invulnerability (i.e. ignore anything of N spell level and lower). Along with that, save DCs would be consistent across spell levels, so a Fire Ball from a 17th level caster is just as hard to avoid as his Polar Ray.
There'd probably need to be other balances, but every time I've played a caster it's like "so I get one, maybe two, attacks in this fight, 'cause otherwise I'm out of 4th level spells for the rest of the day and 3rds and lower just don't have enough punch (i.e. enemies will always make the save)."
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exactly Draco, seems like there are a bunch of items that are basically "NPC gear" so the players get something to sell. I've never seen anyone get armor crafted with spell resistance because it costs too much and is almost useless. I also like the idea of Save DC being the same across the board, although I wouldn't mind there being a roll to see exactly how well the spell was cast so the DC could fluctuate a bit (maybe a 1-6 spread with 3-4 being equal to current DCs?)....*rolls a 1* "you hurry through the casting and get your spell off but in the rush your casting loses some of it's effectiveness making it easier for some foes to shrug off the effects" or *rolls a 6* "your expertly spoken magics and nimble fingers work through the spellcasting and produce a strong effect that is going to be hard for all but the mightiest of foes to resist".
I may have to toss in an effect like that....
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A +1 SR 13 (+2 equivalent) breastplate is only 9kgp (kilo-gold piece, or 1,000 gp) which is a little bit more than 25% of an 8th level PC, and 20% of a 9th level PC's gear, so we have SR = char lvl + 4.5
+1 SR 15 (+3 equivalent) is 16 kgp, which is a little bit more than 25% of a 10th level PC, and 20% of a 11th level PC's gear, so SR = char lvl + 4.5
+1 SR 17 (+4 equivalent) is 25 kgp, which is 25% of a 12th level PC's estimated gear, so SR = char lvl +5
+1 SR 19 (+5 equivalent) is 36 kgp, which is a bit more than 25% of a 13th level PC's estimated gear, and 20% of a 14th level PC's gear, so again, SR = char lvl + 4.5
How much further would be balanced to up that? Character level +8, maybe, so SR 17/19/21/23? Or would changing it from a fixed SR number to (character level + number) be better? Maybe char level +5/+7/+9/+11 instead of the fixed values?
Yeah, this and the INVULNERABILITY enchantment are not at all worth the cost. +3 to get DR 5/magic? Really?
Yeah, this and the INVULNERABILITY enchantment are not at all worth the cost. +3 to get DR 5/magic? Really?
Especially considering that any natural attacks made by a creature with DR/X magic go right through it.
The Invulnerability enchantment really should be DR 5/Epic, with the explicit provision that you do not overcome Epic DR with you attacks just by wearing such armor.
You mean like DR/-?
The Sr enchants are pretty awful yeah. Sr itself is pretty bad, low and not scaling SR is worse. The fact it takes away from another bonus you could've had doesn't really help much.
Do people actually mess with special armor enchantments before getting a +5?
Do people actually mess with special armor enchantments before getting a +5?
Wizards with mage armor, and guys who only get what the DM is nice enough to hand them.
By the time you get +7 a 13 Sr probably isn't going to do much if anything but take up space.
exactly Draco, seems like there are a bunch of items that are basically "NPC gear" so the players get something to sell. I've never seen anyone get armor crafted with spell resistance because it costs too much and is almost useless. I also like the idea of Save DC being the same across the board, although I wouldn't mind there being a roll to see exactly how well the spell was cast so the DC could fluctuate a bit (maybe a 1-6 spread with 3-4 being equal to current DCs?)....*rolls a 1* "you hurry through the casting and get your spell off but in the rush your casting loses some of it's effectiveness making it easier for some foes to shrug off the effects" or *rolls a 6* "your expertly spoken magics and nimble fingers work through the spellcasting and produce a strong effect that is going to be hard for all but the mightiest of foes to resist".
I may have to toss in an effect like that....
Something like that. My dreaming mind came up with the idea of basically swapping "Save DCs" and "Caster Level Check."
People always complain about the "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" but the wizard isn't really all that quadratic. Sure, for a single round the wizard can WTFmurder something, but he's going to be reluctant to do so just in case the next fight is even tougher. And if you assume that everything will always make its saves, you're basically put in a position where you feel that the best course of action is Magic Missile (on account of it just doing damage) or buffing the fighter (Bless, Haste, etc.)
The only real problem fighters had in 3.5 was actually hitting, which was the fault of the CR system, not the class level system. I've played really powerful fighters, I've seen very powerful rogues, but I've yet to play a competent wizard. I've seen a competent artificer, but that had a lot of circumstances involved.
(Along with my "rebalance" of the magic system would actually make Wizards be sorcerers and make Sorcerers computer programmers, but that's a topic for another time).
People always complain about the "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" but the wizard isn't really all that quadratic.
Well, unless you look at it as fighter 1 to 20 hits things and actually sucks at moving and hitting starting at level six, and wizards go from casting magic missile to creating demiplanes, flying all day, and summoning angels. Never mind things that are SR no or no save or suck on save. I hear a game where the foe makes every save is lots of fun! Except you know... not. Because no one wants to play a game where you never accomplish anything or worse, fail repeatedly.
Oh true, there are things that Wizards can do that just outclass a fighter. My point was that even with as metagamy as my groups have been, those kinds of things have come up very rarely (our rogue--played by the Ever-Amazing Jim--outclassed the party more often than anyone else).
The longest campaign I was in was the World's Largest Dungeon and things like "flying all day" didn't work. It was just not viable. The ceiling was only 10 feet up most of the time, 20 feet on occasion, and only two places where it exceeded 50.
We spent six real months looking for an opportunity to cast the Scroll of Ice Galleon we found in such a way as to crush something.
Summoning wasn't viable, as the entire place was dimensionally anchored (anything we summoned could never go home, which was pretty mean. "Sorry, you're now in prison with a bunch of demons, have fun").
exactly Draco, seems like there are a bunch of items that are basically "NPC gear" so the players get something to sell. I've never seen anyone get armor crafted with spell resistance because it costs too much and is almost useless. I also like the idea of Save DC being the same across the board, although I wouldn't mind there being a roll to see exactly how well the spell was cast so the DC could fluctuate a bit (maybe a 1-6 spread with 3-4 being equal to current DCs?)....*rolls a 1* "you hurry through the casting and get your spell off but in the rush your casting loses some of it's effectiveness making it easier for some foes to shrug off the effects" or *rolls a 6* "your expertly spoken magics and nimble fingers work through the spellcasting and produce a strong effect that is going to be hard for all but the mightiest of foes to resist".
I may have to toss in an effect like that....
Something like that. My dreaming mind came up with the idea of basically swapping "Save DCs" and "Caster Level Check."
People always complain about the "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" but the wizard isn't really all that quadratic. Sure, for a single round the wizard can WTFmurder something, but he's going to be reluctant to do so just in case the next fight is even tougher. And if you assume that everything will always make its saves, you're basically put in a position where you feel that the best course of action is Magic Missile (on account of it just doing damage) or buffing the fighter (Bless, Haste, etc.)
The only real problem fighters had in 3.5 was actually hitting, which was the fault of the CR system, not the class level system. I've played really powerful fighters, I've seen very powerful rogues, but I've yet to play a competent wizard. I've seen a competent artificer, but that had a lot of circumstances involved.
(Along with my "rebalance" of the magic system would actually make Wizards be sorcerers and make Sorcerers computer programmers, but...
Um... what....
Maybe at like... level 2...
A mid to high level wizard never really cares about spells-per-day. The only time you care about a spell "not packing enough punch due to saves" is if your playing a SoS wizard, which tend to be one of the more sub-optimal builds. Spells like (fill in the blank) wall have no save and can cut encounters into more managable sizes.
Oh true, there are things that Wizards can do that just outclass a fighter. My point was that even with as metagamy as my groups have been, those kinds of things have come up very rarely (our rogue--played by the Ever-Amazing Jim--outclassed the party more often than anyone else).
The longest campaign I was in was the World's Largest Dungeon and things like "flying all day" didn't work. It was just not viable. The ceiling was only 10 feet up most of the time, 20 feet on occasion, and only two places where it exceeded 50.
We spent six real months looking for an opportunity to cast the Scroll of Ice Galleon we found in such a way as to crush something.
Summoning wasn't viable, as the entire place was dimensionally anchored (anything we summoned could never go home, which was pretty mean. "Sorry, you're now in prison with a bunch of demons, have fun").
1) If your rogue is outshining everyone... your party reallly sucks or the rogue is a damned good player with everyone else being mediocre.
2) That is easy to work to... if small contained space, have fun surviving Cloudkill/Stinking Cloud/incindary cloud/hungry darkness/ect. Small narrow spaces work very well for mages also...
3) Dimensional Anchor SPECIFICALLY states it does not block summoned creatures from disappearing... additionally the summoned creatures are completely under your control anyway...
It seems to be a lot of money for a defensive measure that is almost guaranteed to fail. The cheapest you can buy is +2 enhancement for SR 13, which is worthless past the third module in most APs and half-way through most campaigns, which is when you're likely to have the money to afford this in the first place. The +5 version of the enchant is only SR 19, which most outsider and enemy casters will have to roll a 3 or 4, minimum, to pass against, provided they don't have anything like Spell Penetration. Magic armor enchants being an exponential cost curve, why is this enchant so expensive for something that becomes all but worthless late game? Just seems like something that might be better as a +gp value enchant.
Spell resistance in general is an incredibly meh defense. Even the scariest monsters in the game will have their SR broken easily, so of course these super low SRs aren't going to help.
1) If your rogue is outshining everyone... your party reallly sucks or the rogue is a damned good player with everyone else being mediocre.
2) That is easy to work to... if small contained space, have fun surviving Cloudkill/Stinking Cloud/incindary cloud/hungry darkness/ect. Small narrow spaces work very well for mages also...
3) Dimensional Anchor SPECIFICALLY states it does not block summoned creatures from disappearing... additionally the summoned creatures are completely under your control anyway...
On point 1: he was. Jim is arguably the best roleplayer and effective tactician and strategist I have ever met. There was a game where I decided to swap out my character (as I and another player were kind of doing the same thing; archivest vs. factotum, IIRC) and Jim didn't get the memo. Man, he argued against the NPCs that came to arrest my character almost too well. I had to lean over and say, "Jim. I'm trying to swap characters." He currently works for the government translating Arabic. So I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in 6 years.
On 2: Oh I am aware. We had a Wall of Blades dropped on us at one point, and due to the kinds of crap that our artificer had pulled with an item we found it was "reflex save or die" for him (failing the save immediately would have dropped him to -12 hp, even at...I think we were 12th).
On 3: properties of the dungeon. Go read World's Largest Dungeon, there is literally no way out. Plane shift won't work, Gate won't work, nothing. We prismatic wall'd a bunch of high-powered NPCs and one of them (The First Litch) rolled "sent to another plane." He was super pissed, as the only plane he could be sent to was the Ethereal one and he personally had no way back and we had the Ghost on our side (she promptly proceeded to murder him with near impunity).
IIRC there's only four ways out of the dungeon:
1, 2) one of the two exits, which are heavily guarded
3) Letting the World Eater dig its way out (Jim carved it up from the inside, pretty much killing it single-handedly)
4) Letting the devils out of their cages.
3 and 4 are not generally "ways out" so much as "f*$%ed over the world." 4 went something along the lines of "if you enter this region, you have 7 days to solve some McGuffin Plot X. If you don't, the devils get out. They take over the region in 7 minutes (summoning more devils), the rest of the dungeon in 7 days, and break out in 7 weeks.
Do people actually mess with special armor enchantments before getting a +5?
Carrion Crown. Low-gold AP and my fighter spent *everything* to get +1 mithral Ghost Touch platemail.
Paid for itself again and again and again and again.
His final gear at 16th level was a +1 adamantine ghost touch greatsword and that platemail.
Did I mention it can be a very low-gold AP?
SR armor is more likely to show up as loot than to be crafted, IME. Which is... fine.
It's an extra 5% chance for most casters to fail their spell against you (natural 1 on the roll) and is actually a touch higher when you get it hopefully. The catch is of course that it doesn't scale. At all.
I suppose if you're expecting to fight against a large number of low level casters (the shamans of Tucker's Kobolds) it might be worth looking into, but realistically you're better off just buying the cleric some scrolls of spell resistance (the spell).
It's an extra 5% chance for most casters to fail their spell against you (natural 1 on the roll) and is actually a touch higher when you get it hopefully. The catch is of course that it doesn't scale. At all.
I suppose if you're expecting to fight against a large number of low level casters (the shamans of Tucker's Kobolds) it might be worth looking into, but realistically you're better off just buying the cleric some scrolls of spell resistance (the spell).
Can you show me the rule that says that you auto fail a SR check on a natural 1? because i am pretty sure that you don't.
I think it makes sense to exist in the world.
If you consider that the majority of people aren't spellcasters, and those who are should be heavily weighted to be low level, even SR 15 is a significant hurdle for most spellcasters to overcome.
It just doesn't help PC's fighting level appropriate encounters.
Same with low DR granting items. To 90% of the population, DR 10 is probably close to immunity to weapon attacks. But it sucks after you are too high of level.
Really, the only thing the SR enchant is good for, is avoiding attacks from wands and other magic items with fixed caster levels. Unfortunately, late game, that really isn't much of an issue anymore.
I houserule my games and I went with the level-based approach in my package.
+1: SR 2+Characer level. (Protect from lower level casters and items)
+2: Sr 4+Character level. (Solid 20% defense against equal level casters)
+3: SR 6+Character level. (Milestone 30% defense against equal level, great against lower level.)
+4: SR 8+Character level. (40% defense for players willing to dump a lot into magic defenses and boss NPC's whose thing is to be invulnerable)
+5: SR 10+character level. (A truly "Ultimate" defense of 50% defense against equal level casters, even bosses and monsters will have trouble piercing it and vice versa)
Note that the above is vastly more powerful then the CRB versions, in raw amounts and/or usefulness, a suit of spell resistant +1 armor will still be useful at 20th level, if only to protect from the spells of weak critters. This works just fine as ive modified most of the core armor enhancements to make them useful or even slightly overpowered, its an attempt to give players an alternative to "rocket tag" playstyles allowing them to build defensively rather then offensively to deal with high-risk situations.
I have a special material in my game which blocks magic. It cost 1000gp/lb and if you make armor from it you add your armor bonus to touch attacks vs. magical effects or SR = 10+armor bonus for magic effects that don't have attack rolls.
It has been a really neat add-on in the game.
It seems to be a lot of money for a defensive measure that is almost guaranteed to fail. The cheapest you can buy is +2 enhancement for SR 13, which is worthless past the third module in most APs and half-way through most campaigns, which is when you're likely to have the money to afford this in the first place. The +5 version of the enchant is only SR 19, which most outsider and enemy casters will have to roll a 3 or 4, minimum, to pass against, provided they don't have anything like Spell Penetration. Magic armor enchants being an exponential cost curve, why is this enchant so expensive for something that becomes all but worthless late game? Just seems like something that might be better as a +gp value enchant.
I find that if you are going to get a subject like that, it's best you get it at a scaling method.
Getting a static number of Spell Resistance that doesn't accumulate with anything will eventually become something that simply bogs the game for no particular reason. You might as well just repurpose it into a fashion choice.
That being said, unless you have 11 + Character Level for SR, it's not worth cutting off any buffs or healing you may want from your party members during combat. Anything else, and you're just shorting yourself out of resources that can be put to a more valuable investment.
I also second that it should be a static money sink, the same as it is with the Energy Resistance properties.
As it is non-scaling, it would have made sense to make it a fixed-cost ability.
I have a special material in my game which blocks magic. It cost 1000gp/lb and if you make armor from it you add your armor bonus to touch attacks vs. magical effects or SR = 10+armor bonus for magic effects that don't have attack rolls.
It has been a really neat add-on in the game.
If I may ask, how does that interact with armor enchantments? I can't see anti-magic material holding enchantments very well, personally.
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If I may ask, how does that interact with armor enchantments? I can't see anti-magic material holding enchantments very well, personally.I have a special material in my game which blocks magic. It cost 1000gp/lb and if you make armor from it you add your armor bonus to touch attacks vs. magical effects or SR = 10+armor bonus for magic effects that don't have attack rolls.
It has been a really neat add-on in the game.
So, actually a very astute question. Rather than using +x enhancement items I give inherent bonuses as players level up. So armor is never magical in my games. If a player wants a +equivalent bonus then they can obtain augment crystals (for the same price as the bonus cost) which attach to the armor and provide that benefit. Regular armor has only one crystal slot while masterwork has three.
If I were to use the magic blocking alloy in a game that ran under regular rules I would likely use the same rules as cold iron for enhancing items made with it.
Btw, I don't know why in dancing around what it's called. Arcanium.
Sure it's low SR, but it shouldn't be higher. I don't think you should be able to buy "avoid spells".
If we shouldn't be able to buy something that can "avoid spells," something which Spell Resistance specifically allows us to do, why are there Spell Resistance enhancement effects? And that's not including other effects that may help negate spells. Maybe we should not be able to buy those either?
I think what you mean to say is "it shouldn't be bought," because as it sits, it just plain sucks and is a complete waste of money by the time you can afford it, especially with all of these other better options out there. It's the Greater Bracers of Archery conundrum all over again, except Greater Bracers of Archery can still be useful, but only after you've exhausted all other uses for your WBL. This won't be useful at all against spellcaster BBEGs, and most certainly not for your own party, who still has to bypass it with any spell they try to cast on you, which is a minor annoyance to say the least.
You either have very good SR so that most spells BBEGs cast won't do crap to you, or you don't have any so that spells your allies cast can actually affect you. The middle ground might as well not exist, because you're only hurting yourself and your party members otherwise.