RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I believe, like me, he's saying a forum isn't really the best tool for handling a question/answer format. Currently it's far more "rules discussion and arguments" than "rules questions and answers". A typical player coming here for an answer and searching the forum is unlikely to want to trawl through X00 pages of conversation just to find out how a rule works.
I definitely agree that the current state of the Rules forum leaves much to be desired. However, there's plenty of value that—even in its current format—it can (and often does) provide. For example:
The CRB can be hard to navigate, so someone might have missed a rule, ask a question, and just need to be pointed in the right direction. (Example: Did you know you can't make potions out of spells with a range of "personal"? Did you know that rule isn't found in the 'potions' section of the Magic Items chapter?) Do we want the Paizo staff spending their time on mere rulebook navigation?
Lots of people don't know about the FAQ, so sometimes someone asks a question and just needs to be pointed there. Do we need to make Paizo staff spend their time both posting a FAQ and referencing it, only to have someone not know that exists either and ask elsewhere just to be pointed to the FAQ after all?
Sometimes the question has a correct answer, but that answer has to be derived from an assortment of rules scattered around different parts of the book. The Rules forum is a place where someone can have those pieces of the puzzle put together for them in a way that a FAQ (or FAQ-like forum) could probably not reasonably accomplish.
And so on. There's lots of information available, and sometimes the community is the best resource for sorting and disseminating it.
That was my understanding as well. I was just confused because your statement even discussed attributing motives to those who flagged your posts. It struck me as odd.I don't think the mechanism to know that is available to anyone but mods, if even them. (If I'm wrong, please, anyone, tell me where to find that button!)As a side question, how do you know if your post has been flagged? How do you know who flagged it?I'm not sure that's the case, Dungrun, I think posts about specific posters are probably deleted based on whether the poster who's named feels that the post is flag-worthy. (Aaand I just used the word "post" so many times, that sentence doesn't make sense at all; Well done, Hitdice!) I guess my point is that over-familiarity is flame bait. Some of the people on these boards (Doodlebug) will favorite some very insulting posts which specifically name him, because we both know it's all in fun. Other posters (nameless to protect the innocent) will flag my most innocuous statements of agreement, just because I rub them the wrong way. My point is, different treatment doesn't have to be a conspiracy of the mods, it could well be a ghost in the machine.
Edit: On the other hand, that dude Matt Thomason probably oughtta be burned at the stake out of hand just for ninja-ing me and ruining the flow of conversation. :P
Oh, gotcha; no, I was just talking about the times when you agree with someone, but they take issue with it, and then the whole conversation takes a left turn, and then twenty minutes later a mod has removed the whole derail, and the world is better place for it.
As a side question, how do you know if your post has been flagged? How do you know who flagged it?
When they say "I am flagging all of Dr Deths posts and I hope everyone else does too"?
I assumed they don't delete posts unless they are flagged. I flagged the previously mentioned Hitler post but it still remains.
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Yes, and there's a couple of posters pulling the old trick of when the debate isn;t going the way they want it to, they start asking for a thread lock and insulting other posters- which means that post gets flagged, which does sometimes end in a thread lock. It's a nasty, cheap trick.
The mods are just so busy I don't think they catch it.
This this this this!
I'm growing tired of a select few posters who act like they are the self proclaimed Paizo forum police and go out of their way to get threads locked just because they either don't like the topic, or they are losing their argument. They are dictating when a thread is to remain open or closed. I will not continue to be held prisoner by these people.
Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread and read it, nor is anyone forcing you to make a comment, especially those comments informing you that you are trolling and they will be flagging it. It's like these people think they are of so much importance that the whole board needs to hear them speak.
Speaking of changes, instead of just locking threads or deleting post it might make sense to take an action to keep a poster from repeating the same action. In moderation of course. Always awkward to see someone who just got their post deleted in mass, for the umpteenth time in a week, come right back to do it again in the same hour. At the moment it feels like you get punished for commenting about the guy and he gets away scott free and without consequence, and like some posters may take advantage of that fact.
I believe, like me, he's saying a forum isn't really the best tool for handling a question/answer format. Currently it's far more "rules discussion and arguments" than "rules questions and answers". A typical player coming here for an answer and searching the forum is unlikely to want to trawl through X00 pages of conversation just to find out how a rule works.I definitely agree that the current state of the Rules forum leaves much to be desired. However, there's plenty of value that—even in its current format—it can (and often does) provide. For example:
The CRB can be hard to navigate, so someone might have missed a rule, ask a question, and just need to be pointed in the right direction. (Example: Did you know you can't make potions out of spells with a range of "personal"? Did you know that rule isn't found in the 'potions' section of the Magic Items chapter?) Do we want the Paizo staff spending their time on mere rulebook navigation?
Lots of people don't know about the FAQ, so sometimes someone asks a question and just needs to be pointed there. Do we need to make Paizo staff spend their time both posting a FAQ and referencing it, only to have someone not know that exists either and ask elsewhere just to be pointed to the FAQ after all?
Sometimes the question has a correct answer, but that answer has to be derived from an assortment of rules scattered around different parts of the book. The Rules forum is a place where someone can have those pieces of the puzzle put together for them in a way that a FAQ (or FAQ-like forum) could probably not reasonably accomplish.
And so on. There's lots of information available, and sometimes the community is the best resource for sorting and disseminating it.
I agree with you - but I'd like to see those community answers float to the top of the discussion, and bury all of the hostile, argumentative posts so we can actually see that valuable information without losing it in the morass.
If someone answers "it's answered in the FAQ, here's a link", chances are nobody is going to argue with it. Job done.
If the answer is a guess at how the rule works, there's likely to be multiple answers. Lets bring the multiple suggested answers forward to page one, and leave all the argument buried behind *them* rather than the other way around. Let people click to vote on which they agree with, but show all the suggested answers so people can look at and compare them then decide which answer to go with. Then, if a Paizo staff member wishes, they can also, optionally, flag one of the answers with a shiny star to say "this one is confirmed correct".
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Yes, and there's a couple of posters pulling the old trick of when the debate isn;t going the way they want it to, they start asking for a thread lock and insulting other posters- which means that post gets flagged, which does sometimes end in a thread lock. It's a nasty, cheap trick.
The mods are just so busy I don't think they catch it.
This this this this!
I'm growing tired of a select few posters who act like they are the self proclaimed Paizo forum police and go out of their way to get threads locked just because they either don't like the topic, or they are losing their argument. They are dictating when a thread is to remain open or closed. I will not continue to be held prisoner by these people.
Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread and read it, nor is anyone forcing you to make a comment, especially those comments informing you that you are trolling and they will be flagging it. It's like these people think they are of so much importance that the whole board needs to hear them speak.
By the same token, it is this sort of melodrama that keeps things in a state of turmoil. No one is holding you prisoner. No one is forcing you to respond to the other posters and exacerbate the situation, nor to post things that are provocative.
It goes both ways. You cannot say they are being meanieheads when your hands are not clean either. And that goes for anyone and everyone in these threads. Over half the posts are accusing someone of being a troll or not knowing what they are talking about or debating if they are being offended or needling the other to get them in trouble. It's like driving with kids who poke at each other until someone gets smacked or the car gets pulled over.
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Yes, and there's a couple of posters pulling the old trick of when the debate isn;t going the way they want it to, they start asking for a thread lock and insulting other posters- which means that post gets flagged, which does sometimes end in a thread lock. It's a nasty, cheap trick.
The mods are just so busy I don't think they catch it.
This this this this!
I'm growing tired of a select few posters who act like they are the self proclaimed Paizo forum police and go out of their way to get threads locked just because they either don't like the topic, or they are losing their argument. They are dictating when a thread is to remain open or closed. I will not continue to be held prisoner by these people.
Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread and read it, nor is anyone forcing you to make a comment, especially those comments informing you that you are trolling and they will be flagging it. It's like these people think they are of so much importance that the whole board needs to hear them speak.
By the same token, it is this sort of melodrama that keeps things in a state of turmoil. No one is holding you prisoner. No one is forcing you to respond to the other posters and exacerbate the situation, nor to post things that are provocative.
It goes both ways. You cannot say they are being meanieheads when your hands are not clean either. And that goes for anyone and everyone in these threads. Over half the posts are accusing someone of being a troll or not knowing what they are talking about or debating if they are being offended or needling the other to get them in trouble. It's like driving with kids who poke at each other until someone gets smacked or the car gets pulled over.
What's holding me prisoner is the fact that I can't come in and have a discussion unless it's under their terms. Like I almost have to have permission to discuss a particular topic. I respond to those posters because in all honesty, nothing gets done flagging them.
My hands aren't clean but I don't go around looking trouble. Some people really don't need to take it upon themselves to decide that a post or a thread is somehow "trolling" when it clearly isn't. It's just a tactic to get the post removed or the thread locked.
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My hands aren't clean but I don't go around looking trouble. Some people really don't need to take it upon themselves to decide that a post or a thread is somehow "trolling" when it clearly isn't. It's just a tactic to get the post removed or the thread locked.
Some people just see it as calling a spade a spade.
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My hands aren't clean but I don't go around looking trouble. Some people really don't need to take it upon themselves to decide that a post or a thread is somehow "trolling" when it clearly isn't. It's just a tactic to get the post removed or the thread locked.Some people just see it as calling a spade a spade.
Or "calling a spade a dirty %$#@! , shovel".
But in either case it's something we're not supposed to do.
Chief Technical Officer
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More people clicking "add to FAQ" does indeed make a question more likely to get the attention of the developers.Ah, I thought that was true only to a point. After so many hits, it didn't matter?
Well, sure, once something is at the top of the list, it can't actually *go* any higher...
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What's holding me prisoner is the fact that I can't come in and have a discussion unless it's under their terms. Like I almost have to have permission to discuss a particular topic. I respond to those posters because in all honesty, nothing gets done flagging them.
My hands aren't clean but I don't go around looking trouble. Some people really don't need to take it upon themselves to decide that a post or a thread is somehow "trolling" when it clearly isn't. It's just a tactic to get the post removed or the thread locked.
But you don't have to respond. Try ignoring the people that are trying to get your goat or otherwise derail things in your opinion. Stick with the topic and do not allow others to dictate the flow of the conversation. If your motives are pure and you aren't retaliating, you are less likely to have posts removed.
Don't copy or quote other posts with derogatory language, because your post is going to get removed when/if theirs does. Yes people use these tactics to close threads and get reactions and they use it because it is working with you!
I'd also recommend working on less provocative thread titles and the general outlay of the question. If you start off a thread with "100 ways you suck at playing a paladin complete with pictures" you are going to get negative responses.
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I'd also recommend working on less provocative thread titles and the general outlay of the question. If you start off a thread with "100 ways you suck at playing a paladin complete with pictures" you are going to get negative responses.
Do not google that with safe search off. ;-)
Actually, I think a temp ban on Paladin threads might not be a bad idea.
If you start off a thread with "100 ways you suck at playing a paladin complete with pictures" you are going to get negative responses.You won't ever find a thread I started that is anywhere near this.
Why are you exaggerating the issue?
Well, I was exaggerating for comic effect to help lighten the mood. In all honesty, it is hard for people sometimes to see what they are posting and how it can be seen by their audience. There have been posters on this thread who have made their own threads with titles and opening posts that are the equivalent of throwing red meat to the howling masses looking for an argument.
If you aren't looking for that sort of discourse it is important to find the right balance. If people are coming in and right off the bat saying that a thread should be locked or that it is troll bait, that is a perception that they have -- right or wrong. If you are getting more negative responses than positive, then I suggest that you may want to revisit how you are saying things.
I'd also recommend working on less provocative thread titles and the general outlay of the question. If you start off a thread with "100 ways you suck at playing a paladin complete with pictures" you are going to get negative responses.Do not google that with safe search off. ;-)
Actually, I think a temp ban on Paladin threads might not be a bad idea.
Maybe a temp ban at mentioning alignment at all for a bit. I know I am one of the guilty parties for mentioning it, but at this point I can see the subject has gotten even more filled with hostility in the time I was away and some people really need to be forced to spend time cooling down on it.
I believe, like me, he's saying a forum isn't really the best tool for handling a question/answer format. Currently it's far more "rules discussion and arguments" than "rules questions and answers". A typical player coming here for an answer and searching the forum is unlikely to want to trawl through X00 pages of conversation just to find out how a rule works.
I do think there are plenty of rules questions threads which can be (and often are) resolved clearly and neatly.
Of course they don't tend to stay constantly on top of the forum because there's nobody who keeps posting in them afterwards.
I believe, like me, he's saying a forum isn't really the best tool for handling a question/answer format. Currently it's far more "rules discussion and arguments" than "rules questions and answers". A typical player coming here for an answer and searching the forum is unlikely to want to trawl through X00 pages of conversation just to find out how a rule works.I do think there are plenty of rules questions threads which can be (and often are) resolved clearly and neatly.
Of course they don't tend to stay constantly on top of the forum because there's nobody who keeps posting in them afterwards.
It's not about keeping those threads at the top of the forum - more about keeping the two or three posts out of the hundred or so in each thread that actually answer the question on the first page of the thread, so anyone coming in later can read the actual answers without having to read pages of conversation to find them.
And I think we've just gotten a demonstration of why banning paladin and alignment topics for awhile may be a good idea.
Removed some posts. I understand that some of you are very frustrated, but there is no need to make this particular thread contentious. Also, please keep messages that occur in our private messaging system private, out of respect for other posters.
Let's try to steer this one back around to suggestions (if you have any). I can say that the moderators have been discussing the contents of this thread, trying to decide on how best to handle problem threads and the rules forum.
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It's not about keeping those threads at the top of the forum - more about keeping the two or three posts out of the hundred or so in each thread that actually answer the question on the first page of the thread, so anyone coming in later can read the actual answers without having to read pages of conversation to find them.I believe, like me, he's saying a forum isn't really the best tool for handling a question/answer format. Currently it's far more "rules discussion and arguments" than "rules questions and answers". A typical player coming here for an answer and searching the forum is unlikely to want to trawl through X00 pages of conversation just to find out how a rule works.I do think there are plenty of rules questions threads which can be (and often are) resolved clearly and neatly.
Of course they don't tend to stay constantly on top of the forum because there's nobody who keeps posting in them afterwards.
Maybe a way to move questions marked ANSWERED into a subthread to find them easier and general neatness? That way people don't have to do some huge search, they can go right to the subthread and see what is there.
Maybe a way to move questions marked ANSWERED into a subthread to find them easier and general neatness? That way people don't have to do some huge search, they can go right to the subthread and see what is there.
This is what I was trying to get to when I mentioned eliminating the rules forum earlier. All suggestions by non-Paizo staff is advice. Once the question asked has been answered by Paizo staff, that is an official rule (or ruling.)
Having a forum called "Rules" where people debate the rules seems odd to me.
As far as the current FAQ system, I have seen many people confused as to the FAQs and have difficulty tracking down the exact FAQ they are looking for. I think modifying the current system could help alleviate that problem. A "Rules" forum should be just that - a question about a rule, and an official answer about a rule.
Removed some posts. I understand that some of you are very frustrated, but there is no need to make this particular thread contentious. Also, please keep messages that occur in our private messaging system private, out of respect for other posters.
Let's try to steer this one back around to suggestions (if you have any). I can say that the moderators have been discussing the contents of this thread, trying to decide on how best to handle problem threads and the rules forum.
I can't stand when this happens.
I can't follow the thread. I have opened this thread because I felt I could contribute something to the discussion. I still can, but not as much as I could have because so much of yesterday's and today's portion of the thread makes no sense anymore.
Apparently there is a private message system?. I have no idea how to use it, so I apologize now if I have rudely snubbed someone by accident.
I can sense the hostility in the Rules Forum compared to say Advice or General Discussion. I'm not sure if I can explain it, but I do share this perception. I have only started one thread in that section because of it. I felt bad because it started an unfriendly disagreement between people who interpreted the rules differently. I got the impression that I had stumbled into a heated argument I knew nothing about, despite understanding all the rules arguments. I'm also not sure how the Rules Forum interacts with the FAQ system. I like knowing how everyone else does things, but if I want changes rather than clarifications should I be looking in Rules or Homebrew? I don't want other people's homebrew suggestions when I ask or search a question in Rules and I see many threads get derailed by that exact issue.
I'm not sure what can be done about this but thanks for listening, I appreciate that very much.
Apparently there is a private message system?. I have no idea how to use it, so I apologize now if I have rudely snubbed someone by accident.
At the top-center of your screen, there should be a link of your name; next to it is an envelope, clicking that will take you to PMs.
Also, you can click on your name and avatar picture, which will take you to your profile; along the top, under your name, will be a series of tab links, one of which says "Private Messages", so you can get there that way too.
Hope that helps!
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Apparently there is a private message system?. I have no idea how to use it, so I apologize now if I have rudely snubbed someone by accident.
The link that Orthos mentioned will also indicate if you have new unread messages; "Hello, Gregory Connolly (1)" indicates you have one unread PM.
You can send a PM to someone by clicking on their name to go to their profile; above all of their tabs (for Profile, etc), there should be a link that reads "Send Private Message" that lets you compose a message to them. There is also a way to prevent people from sending your private messages, but I don't remember how that works off the top of my head.
EDIT: Apparently there is a FAQ on the private message system.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I like knowing how everyone else does things, but if I want changes rather than clarifications should I be looking in Rules or Homebrew?
Do you mean something like "I'm not satisfied with how Rule X plays out in my games; what are some alternative ways of doing things?"
Something like that would maybe fit in... Advice, perhaps?
Apparently there is a private message system?. I have no idea how to use it, so I apologize now if I have rudely snubbed someone by accident.
The link that Orthos mentioned will also indicate if you have new unread messages; "Hello, Gregory Connolly (1)" indicates you have one unread PM.
You can send a PM to someone by clicking on their name to go to their profile; above all of their tabs (for Profile, etc), there should be a link that reads "Send Private Message" that lets you compose a message to them. There is also a way to prevent people from sending your private messages, but I don't remember how that works off the top of my head.
I do =)
In the PM screen itself, open the PM from the person you don't want to receive messages from and scroll to the bottom; there should be a link near the bottom of your screen reading something like "cease receiving PMs from this user". Click that and they're added to the block-list; you can remove them by going into your Address Book and selecting the block-list.
Unfortunately there is no way to preemptively block someone from PMing you - you have to wait until they've already sent you at least one message, sadly.
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So reading through here and seeing some of your ideas, it sounds like this might be helpful--If people want to create some kind of ask me all your questions here thread down in the off topic forum like the rest of them, I may answer rules questions there, but remember that as per Stephen's post, if I do so, until something is in the FAQ, these are to be taken as ideas, not official pronouncements of any kind. However, I'd be glad to provide my perspective every once in a while there (it's not like I didn't used to do so anyway, even before the new job!) as long as you guys make sure you don't post only contentious rules questions for me there. Deal?
Do you mean something like "I'm not satisfied with how Rule X plays out in my games; what are some alternative ways of doing things?"
Something like that would maybe fit in... Advice, perhaps?
What I meant is that while I do like to know if people are divided 60/40 as opposed to 95/5 or 40/35/35 on an issue, that isn't why I was looking in the Rules Forum. I'm just not sure exactly what goes in each separate forum. I think I am not the only one having trouble figuring out which threads belong in which forums.
What I meant is that while I do like to know if people are divided 60/40 as opposed to 95/5 or 40/35/35 on an issue, that isn't why I was looking in the Rules Forum. I'm just not sure exactly what goes in each separate forum. I think I am not the only one having trouble figuring out which threads belong in which forums.Do you mean something like "I'm not satisfied with how Rule X plays out in my games; what are some alternative ways of doing things?"
Something like that would maybe fit in... Advice, perhaps?
What are you looking for then? Consensus?
What I meant is that while I do like to know if people are divided 60/40 as opposed to 95/5 or 40/35/35 on an issue, that isn't why I was looking in the Rules Forum. I'm just not sure exactly what goes in each separate forum. I think I am not the only one having trouble figuring out which threads belong in which forums.Do you mean something like "I'm not satisfied with how Rule X plays out in my games; what are some alternative ways of doing things?"
Something like that would maybe fit in... Advice, perhaps?
What are you looking for then? Consensus?
FAQs apparently.