Dervish build magus is ridiculous


Advice

51 to 72 of 72 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Kwauss wrote:

As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore.

Are you just being offensive deliberately, most classes/builds are 'substandard' for the first few levels (ie a paladin doesn't get lay-on-hands until level 2, channel until level 4 and bond until level 5). If we follow your reasoning then parties should reject wild shape druids until the druid reaches level 4 and can actually get wild shape. I, and I suspect most players, are not going to be too upset with having a non 'effective' magnus who casts as well as most wizards and fights better for the first two levels before Dervish Dance kicks in. So many characters have a hard time until the major components of their toolbox kick-in that the actual standard is that characters level 1-3 are much weaker than characters level 4-6.


DM Beckett wrote:
Perhaps, but the straight Magus is already an incredibly powerful class. Dervish Dance and Kensai just push it even further.

Powerful when compared to other melee classes. Weak when compared to full casters.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM Beckett wrote:
Perhaps, but the straight Magus is already an incredibly powerful class. Dervish Dance and Kensai just push it even further.

A strength based magus is currently an equally valid choice for everything except the kensai. There are plenty of optimized magus strength builds.

Scimitar is not chosen because of Dervish Dance, Dervish Dance is chosen because the magus is already shoehorned into using the scimitar. The other limitation imposed on the magus is, spellstrike does not use the weapons critical multiplier. If you're only ever going to get a x2 multiplier, you might as well get it as frequently as possible. All the weapons that compete with scimitar for crit fishing are exotic.

Liberty's Edge

@Artanthos: You're forgetting the rapier. If we get a generic Dex-to-damage Feat in the ACG (and I think we will) we'll probably see a fair number of Dex-based rapier Magi. Which is pretty awesomely in-theme, especially for elves.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kwauss wrote:

I think the most sensible answer I've seen is that the class doesn't really begin until third level with this build (when you can take Dervish Dance) - they're essentially a bard with no performance abilities until that time - so might as well go to medium encumbrance. As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore.

You can say the same about a lot of classes. Gunslingers suck until level 5. Inquisitors are also not really the bees knees until then.

And Magus' are quite good even with sub-standard strength, due to their spellcasting. Until level three there is little functional difference between them and a Wizard in that regard, aside from having more HP, a better attack bonus and a more offense focused spell-list.


magnuskn wrote:
Kwauss wrote:

I think the most sensible answer I've seen is that the class doesn't really begin until third level with this build (when you can take Dervish Dance) - they're essentially a bard with no performance abilities until that time - so might as well go to medium encumbrance. As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore.

You can say the same about a lot of classes. Gunslingers suck until level 5. Inquisitors are also not really the bees knees until then.

Also bards take a while before performance is reasonable, slayers take some time before they can really use study(poor TWF slayers), and possibly investigators depending on how much they decide their combat is supposed to suck and for how long. Not a big fan of the design.

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking wrote:
@Artanthos: You're forgetting the rapier. If we get a generic Dex-to-damage Feat in the ACG (and I think we will) we'll probably see a fair number of Dex-based rapier Magi. Which is pretty awesomely in-theme, especially for elves.

Rapier is a good weapon for a strength based magus. Ironic really, since you would expect it to be used by dexterity builds. If we get a dex-to-damage feat in the ACG, I expect a lot of people will drop dervish dance and diversify their weapon selections.


You can always keep some of your equipment in a sack and just drop it at the start of combat until you can afford better solutions.


I honestly think it is more that Dervish and Kensai push the more into being a class that is about hitting things. Which is not a bad strategy in PFS, almost everything stated out drops if you just keep hitting it long enough.

Sovereign Court

@David: how were magi ever not about hitting things?


Isn't dervish dance out of the PFRPG PRD?
If that is, just don't allow anything out of it. Maybe I am wrong, because all people seems to take it freely.
If someone can clarify this, I will thank.

Scarab Sages

@JuanAdriel: When dealing with PFS, Dervish Dance is legal. Individual tables don't get to say yes or no.

@Ascalaphus: Kensai give up quite a bit in terms of spellcasting in order to become much more effective in melee.


DM Beckett wrote:
Im going to disagree. From a PFS perspective, DD (usually + Kensei or black blade) Magus is pretty much the standard, and causes a lot of issue that h ave been noted many times.

I keep seeing that statement on the boards, but I have yet to sit at a table with a Dervish Dance-based magus, on either side of the screen.

None of the bad guy Maguses in PFS have used Dervish Dance, and it hasn't seemed to slow down their kill rate in the least (I'm looking at you, Dalsine!).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, the damage of the magus mostly comes from Spellstrike. My wife, primarily a non-gamer, has a rapier-wielding magus whose damage spells are all cold-based because she wanted to be different (so no shocking grasp), no DEX to damage (and probably won't ever bother), and doesn't even use Spell Combat because it's complicated to an un-fun degree for her.

Yet the first time she critted with a frigid touch (a 2nd-level spell that deals the same damage as a CL4 shocking grasp), she asked me if it was okay that she did so much damage in one hit.

Dervish Dance is kind of inconsequential unless you're trying to be different by not using touch spells and need something to (somewhat) make up the damage loss.

Scarab Sages

Gwen Smith wrote:
I keep seeing that statement on the boards, but I have yet to sit at a table with a Dervish Dance-based magus, on either side of the screen.

I have a bladebound kensai with Dervish Dance.

He's been having lots of fun with skill checks, but not doing much for damage at the moment.


Artanthos wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Perhaps, but the straight Magus is already an incredibly powerful class. Dervish Dance and Kensai just push it even further.

A strength based magus is currently an equally valid choice for everything except the kensai. There are plenty of optimized magus strength builds.

Scimitar is not chosen because of Dervish Dance, Dervish Dance is chosen because the magus is already shoehorned into using the scimitar. The other limitation imposed on the magus is, spellstrike does not use the weapons critical multiplier. If you're only ever going to get a x2 multiplier, you might as well get it as frequently as possible. All the weapons that compete with scimitar for crit fishing are exotic.

I think you have this backwards: Without Dervish Dance, rapier or sword cane are the obvious choices. Weapon finesse can't be used with a scimitar without Dervish Dance, and you can't two-hand a weapon when you're spell-striking, which negates the only real advantage the scimitar has.

Dervish Dance is "use weapon finesse with a scimitar as long as you have one hand free, and do two different damage types"--that just screams "Pick me, Mr. Magus, pick me!" even before the Dex to Damage part.


I feel like there is also a place for dervish dance in the flavor category of things. Magical training takes a long time, and I doubt that most mages spend their Saturdays at the gym. Even if they are trained to fight, someone who is training in the magical arts will simply not have the time to train to be as physically powerful as a dedicated fighter, so why try?

If a mage were to learn how to fight, I imagine they would be hitting the books, studying various techniques, and learning how to outwit their opponents by through finesses and cunning rather than using brute power. They're just playing to their strengths.

I love the concept of a character who may not be as strong as your paladin or barbarian but makes up for their less than average strength with swiftness and agility, dancing around the battlefield striking with precision and skill. I think that it also makes sense that someone very well trained with a specific weapon would be able to use pinpoint strikes to get bonus damage similar to a paladin or barbarian would (assuming they are not power attacking).

The existence of power attack and the two-handed strength bonus helps to balance out the the other martial classes though. While having high skill can give a dervish dance character a significant boost to damage, they will simply never be able to match the raw damage of a two-handed, power attacking, raging barbarian.

And this makes a lot of sense; the magus is supposed to be a fusing of martial and mage; they get to do some physical damage, but not as much as a dedicated martial, and some magic, but not as a much as a dedicated caster.

Scarab Sages

Gwen Smith wrote:


I think you have this backwards: Without Dervish Dance, rapier or sword cane are the obvious choices. Weapon finesse can't be used with a scimitar without Dervish Dance, and you can't two-hand a weapon when you're spell-striking, which negates the only real advantage the scimitar has.

With a strength build magus, I make frequent usage of two handed attacks. Surprise rounds and any time I have to move before attacking, for example. Scimitar is still my weapon of choice unless I have the option to pick up katana.

I have played both strength based and dexterity based as a magus. The only time dexterity becomes overwhelmingly advantageous as a build is with the kensai. Kensai is pushed into dexterity even without Dervish Dance. Consider: a strength based kensai would need four good stats (STR, DEX, CON, INT) to be effective. Allowing Dex to Damage means they are a little less MAD, but still more so than most characters. With heavier armor, dexterity is a far less relevant stat for a standard magus. I'm certainly not going to push it to 16-18 at first level.

Quote:


Dervish Dance is "use weapon finesse with a scimitar as long as you have one hand free, and do two different damage types"--that just screams "Pick me, Mr. Magus, pick me!" even before the Dex to Damage part.

The cost in feats is not trivial. The cost of giving up x1.5 damage from strength and the increased damage while using power attack is not trivial either. My strength magus dropped many an opponent with a critical while charging. With heavier armor, dexterity is a far less relevant stat. I'm certainly not going to push it to 16-18 at first level.

Shadow Lodge

Besides Arcane casters, which ones?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Gwen Smith wrote:
you can't two-hand a weapon when you're spell-striking

You mean Spell Combat.

...ing.


Dervish Dance doesn't let you deal piercing damage with a scimitar. It just lets you use feats and class abilities as if it were a piercing weapon.

Grand Lodge

Weapon Versatility allows you to deal Piercing damage with a Scimitar.

51 to 72 of 72 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Dervish build magus is ridiculous All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice