So the title says most of it.
1st. Can you fight defensively and charge at the same time? (I'm Sure it's been asked before, but I would rule no if it were up to me.)
2nd. If you are wielding a Two-Handed weapon, are you still able to make unarmed attacks?(Say if you trip a creature, and get a free unarmed attack to anything that gets knocked prone next to you.)
There's a monk in a game I'm playing with, that's got variations of all kinds of arch-types, a single level in a few different classes . As well some other crazed min-maxing, and I've made it my mission to Help make sure he isn't completely disregarding some important rules...
...Like charging and fighting defensively with a Scythe, 2 acrobatics checks to jump twice(To a ledge, and then off the ledge to gain further altitude.)to make a leaping attack from above, also using acrobatics to avoid an AoO(while in the air.) from a large creature with reach, blowing a ki point for an extra attack after landing to trip, taking an unarmed attack against said creature using Crane Wing on the first attack that comes his way and I think that's it.
Either way, this style of game play is ridiculous to me, as epic as it might seem to the player. (Sure we all want to be a bad-a**, but seriously?)
1. Fighting Defensively maybe taken on either a standard, or full round action to attack, and does not take up an action to do. So, on a charge which is a full round action, you could do it. Your first attack would get the +2 to hit (assuming you don't have pounce or anything to do more attacks after the first hit), then you would just be at -2 AC and +2 DODGE AC, while also applying the -4 to that attack and all other attacks that round.
2. You can make unarmed attacks from any part of your body. An unarmed attack is literally an unarmed attack. You saying you punch or kick something is your personal flavor, but the question is if you threaten to preform your unarmed attack. You'd need to be wearing a cestus, or have Improved Unarmed Strike to be able to gain those benefits of the Vicious Stomp feat.
Remember, a charge will only grant double movement speed to a player as a full round action. Any movement while doing a long jump counts against your movement for the turn, so if your land speed was 30, you would do 60 on a charge, and let's say you moved 55 feet, then jumped at an acrobatics of 20 (being 20 ft of movement) you stop at the next 5 ft square being 60 ft due to not being able to go any further in the round. I'm not sure you can charge and Acrobatics, but hopefully someone else can let us know.
I personally don't believe you can make an acrobatics check while in the air like that, but I'm not certain. You would say you're making the check to preform distance, and say where you aimed to go, then roll the check, and by the DC figure out where you went. You'd need to roll another check for the square you wished to avoid the AoO in resulting in taking half speed only in that square, but you're flying at normal speed in the air, so I don't even know...
Charge isn't a full attack actio. So no defensive charges.
You have these two options
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.
First one as a standard action confuses me, because it clearly says for its title that it's "as a standard action", but for its rules just says "you choose to fight defensively when attacking", while saying nothing about having to take a standard action aside from the title of it. As a full-round informs you that it takes a "full attack action" and not specifically a "full-round action" like the title says, but yes, a full-attack is a full-action. Strange how they don't include the specific action in the rules part with the "as a standard action" titled option.
You can fight defensively as a standard action.
You can fight defensively as a full round action for even more benefit.
OR
You can charge - which is a FULL ROUND action*.
No 'defensive charges'.
*There is a Standard action clause, but that doesn't apply in this case.
To the next question about charge and trip - yes he CAN, but he does not get the +2 from the charge as it doesn't apply to that combat maneuver, and nor would it apply to any subsequent AOO that the trip may generate. If he attacks with the scythe at the end of the charge then he is limited to using the scythe on any trip it causes - he cant mix and match a 2 handed weapon and an unarmed strike like that. Likewise if he charges and makes an unarmed strike he cant then get the benefit of the scythe.
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Charge isn't a full attack actio. So no defensive charges.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.
You can't do that, but:
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
it is way less clear if you can or can't do this.
In the title it call for a standard action, but in the text it call for an attack (without requirements for an action).
So, if we think it require a Standard action and an attack, it is a no.
If we think that it only require an attack it is a yes.
RAI I think that it is not possible to "charge defensively", if you want to do that you need the mobility feat, but RAW is ubclear.
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2nd. If you are wielding a Two-Handed weapon, are you still able to make unarmed attacks?(Say if you trip a creature, and get a free unarmed attack to anything that gets knocked prone next to you.)
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
This (and all the corollary discussion from the DEVs say that you can't use "3 hands" of weapons (unarmed strikes included [but natural attacks excluded]) as your iterative attacks, but if the attack is an AoO or some other extra attack generated by a feat or ability you can take it without problems.
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...Like charging and fighting defensively with a Scythe, 2 acrobatics checks to jump twice(To a ledge, and then off the ledge to gain further altitude.)to make a leaping attack from above, also using acrobatics to avoid an AoO(while in the air.) from a large creature with reach, blowing a ki point for an extra attack after landing to trip, taking an unarmed attack against said creature using Crane Wing on the first attack that comes his way and I think that's it.
All in one charge? From your description it seem to have violated several rules.
1) charging and fighting defensively. questionable, see above;
2) "2 acrobatics checks to jump twice(To a ledge, and then off the ledge to gain further altitude.)"
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
Jumping on a ledge don't seem to respect the "clear path toward the opponent" requirement, nor the "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
3) "blowing a ki point for an extra attack after landing to trip" after a charge.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Charging is a special full-round action
To sum it us: he is making a charge, so he can't make a full attack, so eh can't use flurry of blows, so he can't spend the Ki point fo get a full attack (and the charge rules are already prohibiting him from getting the extra attack).
Cool Diego, but still says Standard Action in the opening, so reckon it is no dice on a charge.
Seems this Monk is using his own special ruleset :p
@Shifty, just as myself and Diego pointed out, it doesn't specify in the rule exactly what action it uses.
The AC benefits for fighting defensively would only apply at the end of the charge when the attack is made, and wouldn't have any effect while you were making your movement, if it was indeed legal. Mobility like Diego mentions would be a AC benefit only to movement.
@Diego, you mention the FAQ with spiked armor, and I'm not sure why. You can indeed change from THW to Spiked Armor when making iterative attacks, but that FAQ is talking about is on the subject of TWF with doing off-hand attacks interchangeably.
Charging is a full round action. It involves a move and has an attack at the end.
Fighting defensively is a Full round action OR a Standard action.
Thus you cannot make a charge (full round action) and end it with a standard or full round action - for the same reason you couldn't end a charge by 'attacking by casting a spell' (which we agree is a standard action)
Fighitng defensively is its own activity, it is not merely making an attack with a fancy dance. Otheriwse I could take a full attack action, and on my FINAL iterative I could declare I was NOW fighting defensively and only take the penalty on the final attack and get the bonus to AC. Newp.
Full or standard action.
RAW I think you can't do a charge + fighting defensively, but I'm not sure I see a real problem with allowing it. Instead of getting a +2 to hit and -2 to AC you get a net -2 to hit and AC remains the same.
If the charge bounces off things halfway along though it's not a charge, just a move. Charges need to be in straight lines.
I would probably allow acrobatics while charging. However, in midair it might be fly skill I would require instead.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
Please take notice at why things are hazy here, because you have more so a title of the option, followed by a description for how it works. It doesn't clearly state that it takes a standard action which includes you to make an attack, but rather "when attacking" you throw this on. I imagine that means immediately when you start any attack at all, you need to choose that you're tagging this on.
I never had a problem with a player fighting defensively with a vital strike, or a cleave, because I never looked at this as actually spending a standard action to do, but in tandem with an attack(s), which may be a standard action. You can't fight defensively and not attack either, but rather you must be "attacking" for it to go off.
RAW I think you can't do a charge + fighting defensively, but I'm not sure I see a real problem with allowing it. Instead of getting a +2 to hit and -2 to AC you get a net -2 to hit and AC remains the same.
If the charge bounces off things halfway along though it's not a charge, just a move. Charges need to be in straight lines.
I would probably allow acrobatics while charging. However, in midair it might be fly skill I would require instead.
Overall AC goes down by two, and your dodge bonus goes up 2, which it might matter, but it wouldn't happen until the attack, so the charge penalty would be screwing you until then. Maybe they're applying it during the entirety of the movement which shouldn't happen if this is indeed legal to do, and that's the advantage. Also, be aware with at least 3 ranks in acrobatics, you relieve +3 dodge to Fighting defensively, and +6 dodge for Full Defensive.
I'm not sure where the ambiguity is, it says you are doing 'something' as a Standard Action.
Fighting Defensively : You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
I can't see where it is hazy as it has called out its action requirements in it's very description. It has its own headline, just like casting spells, activating items, or undertaking Total Defence.
Where you will note the difference is in the entry about attacking defensively as a full round action where the action descriptor is moved to being a subordinate activity (a bullet point) under the parent heading of Full Attack.
You aren't getting a standard action at the end of a charge, you simply are getting an attack.
Standard Actions
-Attack
-Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
-Activate Magic Item
-Cast a Spell
-Start/Complete Full-Round Action
-Total Defense
-Use Special Ability
As above, it is it's own entry, not a sub entry under attacking.
Yes, I have pointed out exactly that it says that, but the rules following "Fighting Defensively:" don't specify am action. I am pointing out where it is hazy due to that, and where people will argue their interpretation.
Both options write that they're conditional WHEN attacking, which an attack in itself is a standard, or full round action. These don't say that I spend a standard or full-round action to do. I could fight defensively with flurry by the rules of Fighting Defensively as a full-round action, because I tag it onto the attack, and it isn't in itself an action to spend.
Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
How does "Fighting defensively " not specify what sort of action it is?
As a STANDARD action one can:
*Attack
or
*Fight defensively as a standard action
or
*Total defence
or
Any of the other STANDARD actions on the list of STANDARD actions.
They are three different actions, listed separately as their own headers, under the Standard Action options. They are standard actions in their own right.
Both options write that they're conditional WHEN attacking, which an attack in itself is a standard, or full round action.
No they do not.
Under standard actions, 'attacking' and 'fighting defensively' are two separate entries.Under Full Attack the option to do so defensively is under the attack header.
Flurry of Blows is also its own creature - otherwise if we accepted it was just a modification to a normal full attack we could use flurry of blows with rapid shot WHILST fighting defensively.... erm no.
You are confusing 'attacking something' with taking an 'Attack action'.
Otherwise explain to me why I couldn't charge and cast a spell at the end.
The wording of Fighting Defensively, i believe is in error. IT states that fighting defensively IS a standard action, that modifies 'all attacks in the round'. It does not 'grant' you an attack though, so if 'fighting defensively' was actually your standard action, where does the attack come from? The 'Fighting Defensively as a Full Round' description is equally confusing. Personally, I would write Fighting defensively more like the Combat Expertise feat.
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I would then change Combat Expertise into a modification of the Fighting Defensively style:
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Benefit: When fighting defensively, the penalty on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks is reduced by 2. When your base attack bonus reaches +8, and every +4 after, you can choose to take an additional -1 penalty on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain an additional +1 dodge bonus.
Normally: When fighting defensively, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 dodge bonus.
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This then becomes a fighting style (like power attack). Unlike power attack, though, since fighting defensively affects not just the attack, but your AC as well, it must be either activated or deactivated for the entire round (technically, it should be from your initiative point until just before your next initiative point).
Worded as such seems to greatly simplify things. It would also make it clearer that it could be initiated on an end-of-charge attack, and remove it's needless and confusing dependency on timing.
Obviously, this is a house rule, but I feel it is actually worthy of errata status, as the existing text, RAW, is actually impossible to ever use (since it says it's a standard action, RAW, it would have to specifically stay in the standard action text that it gives you an attack).
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@Diego, you mention the FAQ with spiked armor, and I'm not sure why. You can indeed change from THW to Spiked Armor when making iterative attacks, but that FAQ is talking about is on the subject of TWF with doing off-hand attacks interchangeably.
As you say, there is no problem when doing a iterative attack and using a 2handed weapon for the first attack and an unarmed strike as the second attack, or when making an AoO or using some ability that grant a extra attack as a free/swift action.
There is a problem when someone try to use a two handed weapon and a unarmed strike as a Two Weapon fighting combo as you end using 3 hands of attacks.
I am not sure what the monk player cited by the OP is trying to do, so I tried to explain that difference. It is a fairly difficult concept to explain so my post isn't too clear.
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@Shifty
The "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action" rule can be read two ways:
1) your way: it is a special standard action that allow the character to make an attack while increasing his dodge bonus to AC and incurring in an attack penalty;
2) a possible alternate way: when you are using a standard action to attack you can choose to fight defensively.
Even interpretation 2 seem to prohibit the use of fighting defensively while making a charge, but there have been a few instances where the DEVs have issued FAQ that allow that kind of loose interpretation of the rules.
Let me make a few examples, and say if you can fight defensively when doing those actions:
1) spellcombat
2) flurry of blows
3) sunder
4) disarm
Spell combat? Its a full round action - so it is not relevant to a discussion on standard actions.
Flurry of Blows? No - because flurry is its own standard action. Given you can flurry with a ranged weapon it doesn't even make sense. You could thus flurry 'defensively' with Shuriken and get all the bonus with NONE of the drawbacks - the to hit penalty on defensive says it applies to MELEE attacks so err...
Sunder sure - as it is in place of a melee attack, and is not its own specific standard action.
Disarm is the same as sunder above.
As a counterpoint - NO to Grapple.
As you state, even if we (for arguments sake) accepted your option 2, the Charging person can't fight defensively.
So whilst we might go in circles debating minutiae, there's no version in which the charging guy gets to defend.
Likewise his jumping off ledges seems suspect too as it suggests he isn't cutting straight lines but jumping around laterally.
Wow. Thanks for all the responses guys :], I will have to start coming and playing on this forum more, I knew there were all kinds of busted up stuff on there, but not even nearly that close
Everything.
Thanks for that detailed post.
So the title says most of it.
1st. Can you fight defensively and charge at the same time? (I'm Sure it's been asked before, but I would rule no if it were up to me.)
No. You can only fight defensively when you use the attack action. The charge attack is a full-round action. Even if you charge as a standard action, you cannot fight defensively because the charge action and the attack action are NOT the same thing. This is the same reason that you cannot use Vital Strike during Spring Attack.
2nd. If you are wielding a Two-Handed weapon, are you still able to make unarmed attacks?(Say if you trip a creature, and get a free unarmed attack to anything that gets knocked prone next to you.)
During a full-attack action, you can use any weapons you possess interchangeably. Because you can one a hand on or off a two-handed weapon as a free action, you should be able to switch between these two attack options if you so desire. (The free action rule is the same reason that magi can make two-handed spellstrikes.)
This one is a yes.
"Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn."
funny where no where in here, does it actually say you make an attack as part of the action. "attacking" isn't an action, this sentence is more like fluff than a ruling.
Several times before it has been shown that titles have no inclination over the mechanics that are under them. So, I'd have to go with either, any time you make any attack, you can fight defensively and do the following, or as a standard action you: you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
this is all sillily wrote. no wonder this created an issue.