Rhino Charge and Mounted Combat

[Cfoot]

Rhino Charge lets you ready a charge.

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.

For a cavalier, who needs this feat, the rider or the mount?

[thebigragu]

You'll get different opinions. I'd say it's the mount physically charging, so it's the mount that needs the feat.

[Michael Sayre]

Given the new ruling that both the mount and the rider need to be able to use the charge action for it to count as a "mounted charge", both mount and rider would need this ability if you want to gain the normal benefits associated with a mounted charge, such as double damage with a lance and the rider getting the charge bonuses.

[thebigragu]

I thought they were only both considered charging in unison the rider uses a lance and wants the double damage or uses Spirited Charge. Anyways, yes .... mounted combat rules are poorly written, and the design team is in no hurry to give it proper attention. The latest FAQ is a good example of how a small fix can actually make things worse. Regardless, they are workable with a few basic house rules to anchor a group's reading.

[Michael Sayre]

thebigragu wrote:

I thought they were only both considered charging in unison the rider uses a lance and wants the double damage or uses Spirited Charge. Anyways, yes .... mounted combat rules are poorly written, and the design team is in no hurry to give it proper attention. The latest FAQ is a good example of how a small fix can actually make things worse. Regardless, they are workable with a few basic house rules to anchor a group's reading.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, if the rider wants to get all of his charge goodies, they both have to be charging, and both need to be able to take the charge action under the specified conditions. So if you actually want to be able to use any other ability that triggers on a "mounted charge" you and the mount both need the feat.

If you're playing a mounted archer or spellcaster who doesn't care whether or not they get charge bonuses, only the mount needs the feat.

Giving just the rider the feat probably has some workable dynamic in there somewhere, but it's going to be a huge pain to slog the mounted combat rules and interpret the FAQ and try to make it into something workable.

[Cfoot]

I see what you are saying but that is a lot of redundancy between mount and rider (3 feats per).

For example with Charge Through and Overrun the mount performs this and the rider benefits. They both aren't required to have them even though the rider is going through those squares as well. (May not be the best analogy, but all I got right now.)

[Michael Sayre]

Cfoot wrote:

I see what you are saying but that is a lot of redundancy between mount and rider (3 feats per).

For example with Charge Through and Overrun the mount performs this and the rider benefits. They both aren't required to have them even though the rider is going through those squares as well. (May not be the best analogy, but all I got right now.)

The difference in those instances is that the mount is the one taking all the actions. The rider is just along for the ride.

With Rhino Charge there's an action being taken by both parties if you want to get the full benefits of charging.

[Cfoot]

I'm raising my own thread but I'd like some more input. I'm leveling up my Cav and I've been thinking about this and the FAQ, which says,

"Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge."

The fact that they charge in unison means that if one is charging, they both are and have the same modifiers. I don't think its possible for the mount to charge and the rider to not be. So if the mount used Rhino Charge, to charge as a readied action, I think the rider is as well. I think this feat works if either have it, not both. Wishful thinking?

Thoughts?

[Wheldrake]

IMHO it's excessively restricting to require the mount to have all the same special charging feats that the rider has in order to do the maneuver. It would make it so restrictive that, in most cases, those feats just wouldn't work. A little DM leniency might be the better (meaning more fun-centric) way to interpret them. Surely your mount isn't going to have many feats at all to play with.

This said, I'd love to have a rhino for a mount. Very cool. But I guess that's not really what this thread's about. <g>

[Komoda]

Can a mount ready actions? Do you tell it to wait until a specific trigger happens? Can the mount even tell what that trigger is? If not, how could the mount ever ready an action that you describe?

For instance, "I ready a charge to attack the first dwarf that comes through the door." Wouldn't it basically be impossible to identify, ready, dwarf and door to the mount without actually talking to it?

I think it is completely illogical to believe that the mount does anything other than what you tell it to, when you tell it to do so. This would then make it impossible for the mount to ready an action that you describe. Which would make it impossible for the Rhino Charge to take place on your command, if the mount was required to have declared the ready action, which finally, makes the need for the mount to have the ability/feet pointless.

[MyTThor]

I'd say that if your mount wants to attack at the end of the charge, he'd need the feat also. If not, only the rider needs it.

[nthrun5000]

Komoda wrote:

Can a mount ready actions? Do you tell it to wait until a specific trigger happens? Can the mount even tell what that trigger is? If not, how could the mount ever ready an action that you describe?

For instance, "I ready a charge to attack the first dwarf that comes through the door." Wouldn't it basically be impossible to identify, ready, dwarf and door to the mount without actually talking to it?

I think it is completely illogical to believe that the mount does anything other than what you tell it to, when you tell it to do so. This would then make it impossible for the mount to ready an action that you describe. Which would make it impossible for the Rhino Charge to take place on your command, if the mount was required to have declared the ready action, which finally, makes the need for the mount to have the ability/feet pointless.

Yeah, getting around a mounts limited intelligence is easy enough, just boost its intelligence when it reaches 4HD. This also gets around any need to use Handle Animal, which is nice.

As for what you can and can't specify as a trigger for a readied action. For example, lets say the mount has Rhino's Charge. Can the trigger be "when my rider whistles" or "when my rider says charge"