I'm a LIAR ? ! ?


Advice


Want to make a character for a 1 off or short arc.

Primary focus for this build is convincing anyone of anything. Super high total bluff modifier.

Diplomacy should be decent (I can’t always lie). Sense Motive pretty high (I don’t want others to get away with telling me lies). Disguise and Knowledge Local should also be pretty good. (Though maybe disguise is better handled by magic.) Don’t want to be an otherwise useless PC, so it can’t be 5 level 1 classes. But I will consider a dip into some class(es). I would assume it would be best to be a charisma spontaneous caster to make use of high charisma. If my bluff is going to be that high anyway, should I focus on feinting in combat (sneak attacks)? Or should it be illusions? That also fits real well with a lie-meister.

I know that focusing on a skill is generally not an optimal build. But this is to fit the concept/personality I have in mind for this guy.. After I have max bluff, then I will optimize it as much as is reasonable. Our group is not really massively accomplished optimizers anyway, so it should do fine if it is at least competent.

Setting will be Ravenloft-ish. Half-Vistani will be available as a race. I don’t know anything about them except they are supposed to be really fast (I think he said free improved initiative, but not sure).

Not Human (my last 3 characters have been human, I want something else)
Std 20 point buy for abilities.
Paizo material allowed (3pp only with special permission)
I have CRB, GMG, APG, ARG, UCamp, UComb, UM, ISWG, ISM, Animal Archive, Blood of Angels, and Blood of Fiends
Alignment: CG (most likely anyway)
Level: Starting at 5 with std WBL probably going to 7-9
Hero Points are allowed in this campaign (though they can be given up for a free feat, I usually think that is a poor trade).

So what race, class(es), spells, SLA, items, traits, feats, powers, etc… will make me the most successful liar in the land?


Sounds like a bard to me, especially if you get access to pageant of the peacock. Spontaneous charisma based caster with a focus on enchantment and illusion and with melee options.


Bard. Bard is gonna be better at this than anyone else. Aasimar (musetouched) is the go to race for the racial bonus on perform. I would personally make a Chelish Diva who used Perform (Sing) and Perform (Keyboard Instruments) for Versatile Performance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think bard is a good choice, high charisma, good skills, enchantment spells, you could also get a mask of stony demeanor (+10 to bluff when lieing).

As for race, catfolk get a bonus to charisma, as well as the alternate racial trait clever cat which grants a bonus to bluff, diplomacy and sense motive.

By that point I think you are all set, then you can spend the rest of your resources making sure your character is good at other stuff (though you are already good at buffing as a bard).


Dhampir. Natural Charmer feat for when you've got them to friendly/helpful. Persuasive feat followed by Rhetorical Flourish. The latter feat mixes bluff and diplomacy.

EDIT: Of course, if you're going bard, you may want to check with the GM to see how this might interact with versatile performance. Or just take an archetype that dumps it.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Bard. In addition to everything else already mentioned for bards, don't forget the Glibness spell.


I don't know bards very well, but looking through I'm not seeing anything in particular other than the suggestion power. I mean yes they have lots of skill points and a high charisma casting stat.

Where are Chelish Diva and Pageant of the Peacock? I'm not finding them.

Rakshasa sorcerer bloodline has the Silver Tongue power.

Teiflings have Beguiling Liar for a +4 on bluff and some of the sub-races have a bonus to charisma.

Cat folk have Clever Cat which gives a +2 to bluff

Mask of Stony Demeanor gives a +10 bluff to lie

Dhampir with the race feat Natural Charmer can take 20 on social skills if friendly.

Persuasive feat gives a +2 to diplomacy and intimidate

Rhetorical Flourish feat uses a bluff check to give a bonus to diplomacy or to retry a diplomacy check

Glibness spell give +20 on bluff to convince telling the truth


There are tons of races that give a bonus to Dex and Cha with either a Con penalty, a Wis penalty, a Str penalty or no penalty, any of them do fine. Musetouched Aasimar, Catfolk and Dhampir have already been brought up. Halfling, Tiefling (various), Ifrit, Drow, and Fetchling also have this setup.

Bard is gonna be better at this than anyone else because of Glibness. Other useful spells like Mirror Image help make you combat effective. Inspire Courage and being able to cast CLW will make you popular with your allies.


Chelish Diva is a Bard Archetype from Inner Sea Magic. Pageant of the Peacock is a Masterpiece from the Dragonslayer's Handbook.


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
I don't know bards very well, but looking through I'm not seeing anything in particular other than the suggestion power. I mean yes they have lots of skill points and a high charisma casting stat.

Versatile performance. Charisma to sense motive and another stat? Yes please! Inspire competence and spells to increase my check? yes please! Charisma based caster? Yes and thank you!

Bards might very well get the most skill points in the game, have a lot of roles they can fill, and happen to be a charisma based character.

Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
Where are Chelish Diva and Pageant of the Peacock? I'm not finding them.

Chelish Diva. Pageant of the Peacock. Peagent of the peacock is all about bluff man, gives a +4(stacking) bonus to your bluff and lets you use bluff for any intellect based skills. The dance requirement isn't too bad, its not an awful choice for your versatile performance and makes 2 skills charisma based and you pay 1 skill point for 2.


An inquisitor with the heretic archetype gets to add wisdom as well as charisma to bluff. They can also use bluff to create a diversion to hide more easily (the escape judgement lets them do so as a move action after hitting an opponent).

While they don't get the versatile performance that saves a bard skill points, 6 base should be sufficient.

Being a half-elf gets you a free skill focus feat. With that on the disguise skill you can get Eldritch Heritage (rakshasa) which in turn gives +5 bluff (as glibness; not for feints) & a little resistance to lie detection magic.


Bard has an ability called Versatile Performance that lets them use their Perform (specific) skill bonus in place of other specific skill bonuses. It is this ability that makes them have more skills in reality than a Rogue or Expert, a big decision when making a Bard is what to use Versatile Performance for or whether to give it up for something else with an archetype.

So if you are going to use Perform (Act) or Perform (Sing) for your Bluff score you don't actually want any ranks of bluff, you want maximum Perform and situational bonuses to Bluff. It can be time consuming to plot out when you need what Perform skill at what ranks, but it will make you the most skilled character in the game if you do. This is also why the Musetouched racial bonus to all Perform skills is so good.


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avr wrote:
An inquisitor with the heretic archetype gets to add wisdom as well as charisma to bluff. They can also use bluff to create a diversion to hide more easily (the escape judgement lets them do so as a move action after hitting an opponent).

Conversion inquisition makes you modifier wisdom to begin with. If your GM lets them stack then you get your casting stat to bluff twice.


I admit, the inquisitor spell list seems to benefit every social skill except bluff. Still, they can take the serpent domain and get a viper familiar.


MrSin wrote:
Conversion inquisition makes you modifier wisdom to begin with. If your GM lets them stack then you get your casting stat to bluff twice.

Isn't the standard ruling that you can't add the same stat twice? Sure I read that somewhere.


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avr wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Conversion inquisition makes you modifier wisdom to begin with. If your GM lets them stack then you get your casting stat to bluff twice.
Isn't the standard ruling that you can't add the same stat twice? Sure I read that somewhere.

Its an unwritten rule that your not supposed to add the same modifier twice. Most bonuses of the same type don't stack(though there are exceptions, like dodge and circumstance). This ones a weird case because it says "in addition to the normal modifiers" and they never ruled on that. There are plenty of threads on it, and probably shouldn't derail this thread to chat too much about it.


Kitsune race. Realistic Likeness feat turn into anyone (probably human specific? I dunno).

Bard's good. If you're willing to level dip, 3 levels in Charlatan Rogue can get you the Rumormonger advanced rogue talent that could basically let you con whole COMMUNITIES if you got a week of downtime to lie to folks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Since the Bard has already been brought up the Negotiator archetype from Champions of Balance seems like a really good option to what you may be envisioning. It replaces Bardic Knowledge and Lore Master for Hard Bargainer and Master of Rhetoric. These abilities net you a bonus equal to half of your Bard level to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), and Sense Motive checks and allows you to take ten on these checks too and take twenty a few times a day without taking additional time too. There are a few other fun abilities with the archetype too but here's the link if you're interested: Negotiator Bard


Ok

Plan on Versatile Performance to use perform skill instead of bluff skill. Don’t think I shouldn’t put any ranks in the social skill since sometimes I won’t be using performance.

Aasimar, Azata-Blooded (Musetouched) heritage - gives +2 dex +2 cha, gliterdust, +2 racial bonus to diplomacy and perform
Trait Lillend’s Harp – gives +1 trait bonus to perform (string) checks, +2 if part of bardic performance
1st Feat Skill Focus: Perform (I don’t think skill focus bluff would stack with this) – gives +3 Performance, +6 when 10 ranks
3rd Feat Voice of the Sibyl – gives +1 to bluff, diplomacy, and perform (oratory), +3 when 10 ranks
Spell Glibness (3rd level spell) – gives +20 to bluff checks (can’t get until 7th level)
5th Feat Skill Focus: Disguise & 7th feat Eldritch Heritage: Rakshasa or 1 level dip in Sorcerer: Rakshasa – gives +5 bluff check
Magic item Mask of Stony Demeanor – gives +10 to bluff

When I get home I need to look up the Negotiator and Chelish Diva archtypes (can’t see them at work) and the Peacock’s Pageant masterpiece. (Negotiator sounds idea.)

Looks like by 7th level I can easily have a +60 on bluff/performance checks.

I think tiefling beguiling liar may work better since it is a +4, but would be 2 points worse than Aasimar on all the other skills that performance could be used with.

I like Rumor Monger, but don't think I'm willing to take a 3 level dip.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Maybe you could do something similar to my conman character?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Revolving Door Alternate wrote:

Ok

Plan on Versatile Performance to use perform skill instead of bluff skill. Don’t think I shouldn’t but any ranks in the social skill since sometimes I won’t be using performance.

Aasimar, Azata-Blooded (Musetouched) heritage - gives +2 dex +2 cha, gliterdust, +2 racial bonus to diplomacy and perform
Trait Lillend’s Harp – gives +1 trait bonus to perform (string) checks, +2 if part of bardic performance
1st Feat Skill Focus: Perform (I don’t think skill focus bluff would stack with this) – gives +3 Performance, +6 when 10 ranks
3rd Feat Voice of the Sibyl – gives +1 to bluff, diplomacy, and perform (oratory), +3 when 10 ranks
Spell Glibness (3rd level spell) – gives +20 to bluff checks (can’t get until 7th level)
5th Feat Skill Focus: Disguise & 7th feat Eldritch Heritage: Rakshasa or 1 level dip in Sorcerer: Rakshasa – gives +5 bluff check
Magic item Mask of Stony Demeanor – gives +10 to bluff

When I get home I need to look up the Negotiator and Chelish Diva archtypes (can’t see them at work) and the Peacock’s Pageant masterpiece. (Negotiator sounds idea.)

Looks like by 7th level I can easily have a +60 on bluff/performance checks.

I think tiefling beguiling liar may work better since it is a +4, but would be 2 points worse than Aasimar on all the other skills that performance could be used with.

I like Rumor Monger, but don't think I'm willing to take a 3 level dip.

The Negotiator gains rogue talents as well, no dip needed.


Bards are great for this: they get Disguise Self, Glibness, and other wonderful subterfuge spells. I would also take the Archarologist Archetype for some Rogue Talents, because there are some pretty good ones for lying.


Imbicatus wrote:

...

The Negotiator gains rogue talents as well, no dip needed.

Oooh... Sounds better and better.

Cuup wrote:
... I would also take the Archarologist Archetype for some Rogue Talents, because there are some pretty good ones for lying.

But archeologist gives up the performance which it seems is key to this whole schtick.


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
Don’t think I shouldn’t but any ranks in the social skill since sometimes I won’t be using performance.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but you don't have to do a performance to use the versatile performance skill.

For instance, when you use perform (dance) instead of acrobatics, it's not that you're break dancing across the battlefield (although you certaintly could). It's that your study of the intricacies of dancing help you perform acrobatics.

In other words, if you max the perform skill there is 0 reason to put any skill points into that particular skill (other then putting a few in while you wait to gain a new versatile performance).


Sub_Zero wrote:
Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
Don’t think I shouldn’t put any ranks in the social skill since sometimes I won’t be using performance.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but you don't have to do a performance to use the versatile performance skill.

For instance, when you use perform (dance) instead of acrobatics, it's not that you're break dancing across the battlefield (although you certaintly could). It's that your study of the intricacies of dancing help you perform acrobatics.

In other words, if you max the perform skill there is 0 reason to put any skill points into that particular skill (other then putting a few in while you wait to gain a new versatile performance).

Hmm... I thought you only got that while using bardic performance. But I guess it doesn't say that at all. thx


It boils down to there being at least two good ways to build this character. A Chelish Diva is basically a rock star. This version of the character is famous and talented, people believe you because they are starstruck. This has some advantages like Versatile Performance and Costume Proficiency. A Negotiatior is basically a lawyer. This version of the character is anonymous and talented, people believe you because of your confidence and authority. This has some advantages like Rogue Talents and Fast Talk. Either way can be great, but they are built very differently.


Now looking at which traits to take.

Charming, Talented, Magical Lineage: Glibness (except I don't yet have any meta-magic feats), Ascendant Recollection, Fiend Blood, Callistran Courtesan, and Vagabond all seem to fit decently.

Seems like the drawback would have to be either Pride or Vain.


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Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
I like Rumor Monger, but don't think I'm willing to take a 3 level dip.

Its a trap!


For something a little more off the wall, if you have a class that channels, variant positive channeling rulership adds diplomacy or trickery adds to bluff, disguise, sleight of hand, and stealth.

Enchantment school wizard has a scaling bonus to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate. Manipulator subschool has an aura that debuffs vs mind affecting.


Rumor Monger is an advanced rogue talent. As such it is unlikely to ever be available to this character no mater what class I pick. =(

But the convincing lie standard rogue talent is a possibility.


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:

Rumor Monger is an advanced rogue talent. As such it is unlikely to ever be available to this character no mater what class I pick. =(

But the convincing lie standard rogue talent is a possibility.

The value of those two rogue talents is actually based on how your GM runs those situations. They both traps really though, since they can effectively nerf using the skills to begin with. Ideally someone who tells your lie is telling the truth to begin with, and nothing should stop you from spreading a rumor to begin with. Their mechanical effects are meh.


How do DMs handle this? I can imagine this being a total pain for GM's.
I mean of course GMs are the final arbiters of what is possible, but if a player rolls like a 52 on a Bluff check...

Also, Gnomes have a lot of going for them in terms of Bluffing.
Alternate racial trait Gift of Tongues.
Racial feat Taunt (allows you to use Bluff as Intimidate, which is nice)
Racial feat Casual Illusionist (gives you bonus to Bluff among other things)


Yeah given everything Gnomes can get, they're a lot better in the Bluff skill than Aasimar, but Aasimar are an overpowered race and Gnomes are generally considered to suck because they are not Aasimar. But hey, just saying.


Casual illusionist is pretty good. I forgot about that one.

Taunt is just a feat not a racial feat. If I have room for it in the build, I might consider it. Sometimes you do need to intimidate someone not just scam them.

Teifling is better at bluff then both. But not as good at the other things.

I will give gnome a consideration when I start building some characters.


We've been through this. Search for my thread Ultimate B.S. Artist. I think by post 67 you can find Wallaver: a 9th level char with an auto 105 on bluff. His diplomacy is really high as well as his disguise which really comes in handy.


Thanks Matt! It looks fascinating. I won't be going to that high a level to get some of that stuff but I will look at it in detail the next couple of nights.


I have heard it said before and have experienced it myself. Many times social skills have a "peak zone" of where they tend to work well.

Player: Bluff = 32
GM: Oh yeah he totally buys it hook line and sinker. You have him wrapped around your finger

Player: Bluff = 52
GM: He believes you but doesn't seem to care.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The highest Sense Motive modifier of any published creature is...just not that high. Mid-40s I think.

There IS a certain point where you need to stop adding bonuses and start putting resources elsewhere. That point is when literally nothing published can beat you, even when telling outlandish -20 lies.

Otherwise, you're actually making your character weaker by continuing to invest in an ability that you are already the best at.

Dark Archive

You might find a lot of useful info in this thread (I wouldn't remotely suggest taking it to the silly heights we did there, but it is a good source of many of the different ways to get additional bluff skills).

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoik?Ultimate-BS-Artist-Build

Scarab Sages

Spellsong could work to you hide those charm spells too ;)


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Suthainn wrote:

You might find a lot of useful info in this thread (I wouldn't remotely suggest taking it to the silly heights we did there, but it is a good source of many of the different ways to get additional bluff skills).

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoik?Ultimate-BS-Artist-Build

Already ninja'd you ;).

lol and my char with this already talked his way out of certain death talking to stone giants by himself then deserted the group. Never underestimate the power of b.s.!

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
Glibness spell give +20 on bluff to convince telling the truth

Be aware that this is effectively everything you want to do - lie "and convince them you're telling the truth".

It's worded the way it is so that you don't use the bonus for feinting purposes, or similar.


Ok, did some researching last night. Love the Kitsune favored class bonus for bards in addition to the shape change. I like the abilities of the Negotiator archtype better than the Chelish Diva or the Street Performer. However, I am unlikely to buy the Herolab add in for a short mini-arch. If this was for a full campaign I probably would. Plus I think the Chelish Diva better matches the personality I have in mind for the PC.
"Do you know who I am you peasant! I am the Ambassador of Brevoy! When I tell them you have declared war on Brevoy were you speaking only for yourself, your clan, or your city-state?"

So here's what I'm thinking so far.

Race: Kitsune
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Diety: Callistra
Abilities (unknown but cha 20)
Drawback: Vain
Traits: Charming, Callistran Courtesan, Ascendant Recollection (still considering Fiendblooded but I don't think so)

Level Choices:
1) feat Skill Focus: Perform (since I will be using it for Bluff
2) Versatile Performance: Act (Disguise and Bluff)
3) feat Skill Focus: Disguise
5) feat Eldritch Heritage: Rakshasa

Future:
6) Versatile Performance: Oratory (Diplomacy and Sense Motive)
7) feat Deceitful (maybe)
9) feat Voice of the Sibyl (maybe)

See problems with the playability of the PC? Suggestions on different choices or which spells to pick?


As avatar alluded to, they word abilities' usages different for nearly all bluff effects but bluff essentially breaks down into a few uses: feint, give secret messages, lie/deceive, and make a distraction.

Find out how your DM runs performance. It can affect your ability to use the versatile performance. Is he going to require you to "act" to always use tha ability? Could make it unusable in certain situations

Lantern Lodge

You might also look at the bard 'Street Performer' archetype from the APG. They get the +1/2 level to bluff, and can take 10 and 20 on bluff checks. They also have a neat ability to use bluff for a 'short-term diplomacy' (ie: Gladhanding...otherwise known as 'fast talking'). Also, some of the bardic performance abilities fall into the 'bluff-styled' abilities.

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