I may be joining a campaign soon and I've come up with a character idea I'm curious how I'd get it to work. The background would be that a young boy picks up his fallen brother's paladin armor and longsword and follows in his footsteps. The detail being that his own rage isn't exactly holy or divinely bent.
I was thinking of picking up the Spirit Totem line for fluff's sake and Renewed Vigor to imitate Lay on Hands, but other than that, I'm not entirely certain how I should build it. The campaign is still in the works, so I don't know what level we'd start at, but builds considering 20 point buy and anywhere between 5th and 10th level will give me an idea on how to look ahead.
Have you considered multi-classing with Oracle, and going into the Rage Prophet prestige class? That could give your barbarian a litle bit more of a paladin feel.
There's also the Celestial Totem line to consider (pretty sure you can only have one "totem", though). Other rage powers that might be of some interest to you are Fearless Rage and Internal Fortitude (to mimic the paladin's immunities).
There's also the Celestial Totem line to consider (pretty sure you can only have one "totem", though). Other rage powers that might be of some interest to you are Fearless Rage and Internal Fortitude (to mimic the paladin's immunities).
I checked out the Celestial Totem, but I thought it'd be better if he didn't really have any touch of the divine on him. The whole point is that he isn't a holy warrior, he's just a child who misses his brother. The Spirit Totem I thought would be like his brother's still watching out for him.
But I may check out Rage Prophet as well. Let me see, but for the moment, I'm uncertain I want to take things in that direction.
Edit: The Rage Prophet is a good idea, just not what I'm going for. Also, I'd like to clarify that my point here is to make it seem like only my GM and myself know I'm playing a barbarian. Everyone else in the group should think I'm a paladin of some archetype or order.
i like the rage prophet- i played one with a backstory vaguely similar to what you're describing who was barb 2/bones oracle 4 with the haunted curse and spirit totem. here's the thing though- one of the things that made him fun/effective was spending feats on extra revelation and extra rage power as he leveled (since rage prophet levels stack with barb and oracle levels for rage powers, revelations, and curses), and apparently there is some discussion about whether or not that is allowable. i think some paizo person said at one point that the stacking levels weren't meant to be able to let you take new powers that required higher levels, but there's never been any FAQ entry or anything definitively stating that (as far as I know)... so check with your GM to make sure you understand how that will work in his campaign.
Maybe some multiclassing with Inquisitor/Barbarian?
Judgements are cool, but they are still done divinely. Which is what I'm trying to avoid.
Celestial Bloodrager can be Lawful Good, and has a bunch of angelic powers. You can play that as a Paladin no problem. They just use anger and the Arcane instead of smite and the Divine.
Bloodrager might make a good middle ground.
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Hadn't thought of the Spirit Totem as representing the ghost of the deceased brother. That's a nice touch. In keeping with that theme, the rage powers I suggested (Fearless Rage and Internal Fortitude) could represent the paladin's ghost imbuing his brother with some of the abilities he possessed in life (auras and mercies). The Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life rage powers might also be thematic for the character, in keeping with the concept that his brother is still looking out for him from beyond the Veil.
Looks to me as you want to play a barbarian. An archetype that gives heavy armor seems the way to go. Beyond that play the story you want to play. Don't mistake class names for what your chacter thinks of himself. I have played many classes and never had my character view himself as a rogue or barbarian. They were "professional" or a warrior of their clan. I played an urban ranger who began to call himself a paladin of his god because of what he saw as blessings, or gifts from his god. He in his view was chosen as a warrior for his god's cause. You have an interesting idea let it run.
Looks to me as you want to play a barbarian. An archetype that gives heavy armor seems the way to go. Beyond that play the story you want to play. Don't mistake class names for what your chacter thinks of himself. I have played many classes and never had my character view himself as a rogue or barbarian. They were "professional" or a warrior of their clan. I played an urban ranger who began to call himself a paladin of his god because of what he saw as blessings, or gifts from his god. He in his view was chosen as a warrior for his god's cause. You have an interesting idea let it run.
Yes, I do want to play a barbarian. That was up in the top post. But the question is how do I make a barbarian more paladin-like? And not just in the whole "be good and noble" schpiel, I want to fool my teammates into legitimately thinking I'm a different class. I'm wondering what feats and rage powers and archetypes I could use in order to make it seem like I've got the whole Lay on Hands and whatnot going on. I'm looking to fake it.
As for armor, Armored Hulk looks just alright to me, but it seems unnecessary since Iomadaean paladins are mostly described as decked out in breastplates and that's medium armor.
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You can also just burn a Feat for Heavy Armor...no need for a whole Archetype.
Invulnerable Rager definitely helps with the 'Lay on Hands' thing (since it helps you stay up long past when other people would've fallen down), as does dipping a level in a class with healing...Oracle leaps to mind. In terms of Saves, Superstition does a good job of duplicating Paladin-level saves for most purposes.
To really pull this off, you'll likely need to invest a Trait or two into grabbing Paladin-appropriate skills, and have at least a modest (12 or so) Charisma score.
The feat Godless Healing from ISWG is what you are looking for.
Other than that I suppose a dip in Bard could help if you want to play up the whole non-divine faux paladin thing.
The feat Godless Healing from ISWG is what you are looking for.
Gosh no, that's a horrible feat. There's got to be something better for your character. Bad mechanics coupled with the anti-divinity theme. bleh.
The feat Godless Healing from ISWG is what you are looking for.
Other than that I suppose a dip in Bard could help if you want to play up the whole non-divine faux paladin thing.
Do you think this is necessary on top of Renewed Vigor?
Also, why Bard?
The feat Godless Healing from ISWG is what you are looking for.Gosh no, that's a horrible feat. There's got to be something better for your character. Bad mechanics coupled with the anti-divinity theme. bleh.
I agree it seems like a subpar feat, but I'm not trying to be divine. Just to seem like I am.
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Do you think this is necessary on top of Renewed Vigor?
It's nice, but probably not necessary.
Also, why Bard?
It's Charisma based, adds to your bad saves, and has healing magic. With the right Archetype there are other bonuses as well...I'd still go Oracle if dipping, though.
I agree it seems like a subpar feat, but I'm not trying to be divine. Just to seem like I am.
Yeah...but from description he's following in his brother's footsteps, and given that his brother was a Paladin of Iomedae that makes him rather distinctly not an atheist.
Yeah...but from description he's following in his brother's footsteps, and given that his brother was a Paladin of Iomedae that makes him rather distinctly not an atheist.
Granted, he can worship. In fact, he probably will. But the idea was that he doesn't derive power from divine sources.
Well then, Godless Healing is right out. The reason to dip Bard is that it lets you use healing magic that isn't divine without making you much worse at combat. Pulling out low level wands that are on both spell lists and using them will go a long way to convincing everyone that you are a Paladin without having to say a word.
Cavalier seems an obvious multiclass to pick up that "paladin warhorse"
Bard/Witch/Alchemist are the 3 classes that jump to mind that can provide healing magic without divine inspiration.
Or maybe you just point out that your paladin is made poorly, and lacks the Charisma for healing abilities.
I could go down that path, I don't plan on having much charisma, anyways. I'm not terribly keen upon multiclassing, seeing as it would cut me down on rage powers. Plus, I could always mention that I got Divine Bond for my weapon and explain Rage rounds with that. Thanks, Treantmonk.
Does Iomadaean Sword Oath seem like a bit too much to sink in on or is there a better feat I could pick up?
The Spirit Totem I thought would be like his brother's still watching out for him.
When I was starting off making my "holy barbarian"-type character, my GM allowed a mechanical rework of Spirit Totems to do holy damage instead of negative energy. Only did damage to evil creatures. It helped fulfill the flavor of the character a lot.
That might cross the line on your character not having divine powers, though if you tie it exclusively to it being your brother's spirit that's being the source of it, it may still apply if your GM is down with it.
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Iomedae sword oath is a trap, you spend a feat to gain access to feats with no other benefit and a huge penalty.
Personally, I would go Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager as they stack. Spirit Totem is cool, but I would suggest world serpent to mimic Smites dr bypassing. Then the whole superstition to witch hunter tree.
Renewed vigor is ok, but I'd rather take the extra dr power if you have a choice.
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You can't replicate Lay On Hands without access to Spells or Channeling, which means a dip into a class that it looks like you are trying to avoid. You could pretend to be an Empyreal Knight with the Spirit Totem subbing in for your "Celestial Allies".
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, however a week or so ago someone made a Raging Psycho Paladin which looks pretty amazing in my opinion, the Divine Bond allows you to get +1/day of Lay on Hands every 3 levels as well.
Eldritch Heritage tree with the Celestial bloodline could kinda help emulate the paladin saves and immunities.
I understand he doesn't start out with any divine capabilities, however, you gotta think that if he continues to try to emulate his dead paladin brother, why wouldn't he eventually develop some divine favor? I think that justifies the dips into oracle or inquisitor.
I do like the flavor modification of the spirit totem rage powers. Perhaps, instead of wisps, the spirit starts to resemble his brother mechanically it could be the same (negative energy still makes sense as it's a ghosts touch, even if it is the ghost of a once holy warrior).
Spirit Totem, Lesser - ghostly shapeless form accompanies the raging barbarian, making a 1d4 negative energy slam attack once per round.
Spirit Totem - ghostly shape starts to resemble a humanoid. The spirit tries to protect the barbarian by positioning itself between attackers and the barbarian (20% miss chance).
Spirit Totem, Greater - Ghostly companion now resembles the fallen brother, wielding his ghostly sword. Any creature that starts adjacent to the barbarian takes 1d8 negative energy damage, and the slam attack does 1d6 at a range of up to 15 ft (the ghost can charge at a single opponent up to 15 ft away).
These rage powers flow perfectly into the Oracle (Haunted, Battle) -> Rage Prophet.
You could, instead of the barbarian gaining divine favor himself, work towards a oracle path, where the powers are coming from the spirit of the dead paladin. Example progression, focusing on imitating and gaining support from, the dead brother:
Lvl . Level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HD . BAB . Special . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. 1 . Barb 1 (Armored Hulk) . d12 . +1 . . Feat (Power Attack), Armored Hulk, Indomitable Stance, Rage
. 2 . Barb 2 (Armored Hulk) . d12 . +2 . . Armored Swiftness, Rage Power (Spirit Totem, Lesser), Armored Swiftness
. 3 . Barb 3 (Armored Hulk) . d12 . +3 . . Feat (Extra Rage Power - Moment of Clarity), Resilience of Steel +1
. 4 . Barb 4 (Armored Hulk) . d12 . +4 . . Rage Power (Spirit Totem)
. 5 . Oracle 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . d8 . +4 . . Feat (Extra Rage Power - Spirit Totem, Greater), Mystery (Ancestor), Curse (Haunted), Orisons, Revelation (Spirit Shield)
. 6 . Oracle 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . d8 . +5 . . Mystery Spell (Unseen Servant)
. 7 . Rage Prophet 1 . . . . . . d10 . +5 . . Feat (Furious Focus), Savage Seer, Spirit Guide
The problem is the paladin and the barbarian are so very different. The only similarities are the martial weapons - aside from that, just about everything else is different. Lawful vs Chaotic. Healing others vs. Personal Health. To try to form one into the other is just never going to come to fruition, unless you actually multiclass from barbarian into paladin - but that is going to be difficult. That's why, given the backstory, everyone has veered toward the same end. The progression from barbarian 'towards' a holy warrior would be through oracle, which leads to the rage prophet prestige class.
You could take that progression i showed above, and switch it around to take oracle 1 and 2 at levels 2 and 3, before fleshing out the rest of the barbarian levels. This would get your some cure spells early on to mimic your lay on hands, but would delay getting the spirit totem powers.
As for the ability scores, high strength, moderate con, and high charisma. The others don't matter as much. Dex will be limited by armor, Wis is unneeded, as oracle brings in decent will saves. Int is unnecessary with limited skill needs.
Interesting suggestions. I don't think that I necessarily want to emulate Lay on Hands anymore, however, since our party has a life oracle that said he would take care of that for us. Also, Crazi, how did you pick up Greater Spirit Totem so early?
I decided I was a fan of Invulnerable Rager over Armored Hulk, since Celestial Armor helps fit the theme and is only medium armor. I have stuck on the Spirit Totem powers, but I need to wait till 10th to get Greater.
@topic: celestial bloodrager, if ACG playtest stuff is allowed.
it seems rather geared toward mounted combat, but im sure you can work with/around that
What do people think about the Chevalier PrC? Imo feels like a pseudo-paladin and is fairly easy to pick up. Sure, you don't get the casting, but it won't detract too much from the core barbarian competencies :D .
Also, Crazi, how did you pick up Greater Spirit Totem so early?
Sorry, was writing that offline, and wasn't paying close enough attention to the prereqs.