I'm playing a summoner. When I am in reach of my eidolon, I get a +2 shield bonus. I also carry a +1 Buckler. I know the shield bonus doesn't stack when I'm close to my eidolon, but what about the enhancement bonus?
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A +1 bucker is a buckler that has a +1 enhancement to it's shield bonus; it doesn't grant +1 shield, +1 enchancement; it grants +2 shield. Thus it doesn't stack, sorry!
It's not a Shield bonus, so you should still benefit from it.
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
It's a +1 enhancement bonus to your shield bonus, so it doesn't stack.
Wouldn't it suck if the enhancement bonuses from your armor and shield didn't stack? XD
I'm fairly certain you would end up with a +2 in either situation. The enhancement bonus applies to your shield, and increases your overall shield bonus to ac, it is not directly applied to your ac.
HGSolo's right -- The enhancement bonus on your buckler enhances your shield, bringing your total shield bonus to +2 -- so either way, it's a +2 bonus and no stacking.
I think enchantment bonus to shield bonus stacks with shield bonus itself but shield bonus doesn't stack with other shield bonus. So complicated, hopefully D&D Next will be better than Pathfinder.
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I disagree with it being complex.
Heavy shield gives you a total of +2 Shield Bonus
+1 Buckler gives you a total of +2 Shield Bonus (1 for Buckler, and 1 for +1 Shield Enhancement Bonus)
if you equip them both, then you have two sources giving a shield bonus of +2, and shield bonus' don't stack, so you're left with +2 shield bonus.
What you could do is have 2 shields with multiple abilities bonus' and as long as they were equipped, and didn't have the same ability bonus like lesser acid resistance (which wouldn't stack) then you would reap all the rewards, such as one with lesser acid resistance, and the other shield with lesser fire resistance.
I disagree with it being complex.
Heavy shield gives you a total of +2 Shield Bonus
+1 Buckler gives you a total of +2 Shield Bonus (1 for Buckler, and 1 for +1 Shield Enhancement Bonus)if you equip them both, then you have two sources giving a shield bonus of +2, and shield bonus' don't stack, so you're left with +2 shield bonus.
What you could do is have 2 shields with multiple abilities bonus' and as long as they were equipped, and didn't have the same ability bonus like lesser acid resistance (which wouldn't stack) then you would reap all the rewards, such as one with lesser acid resistance, and the other shield with lesser fire resistance.
Well, not to make it too complex but I disagree. You cannot combine special abilities with bracers of armor and special abilities from magic armor. I don't think you can benefit from two magical shields at the same time.
Bracers of Armor specifically state that they turn off, but are there rules in regards to shields anywhere?
Bracers of Armor specifically state that they turn off, but are there rules in regards to shields anywhere?
I would assume they follow the same general rule. Is there a reason you do not?
I'd figure because this is a specific rule that specifically applies to bracers of armor, and not a general rule. I'm not certain that a rule doesn't exist, but if one does in regards to saying something similar then I'd be interested in learning about it.
I'd figure because this is a specific rule that specifically applies to bracers of armor, and not a general rule. I'm not certain that a rule doesn't exist, but if one does in regards to saying something similar then I'd be interested in learning about it.
I would guess the bracers of armor/actual armor comes up more frequently than someone attempting to wear two shields. I think the rule would apply equally to both.
By RAW this is only a case for Bracers of Armor, so unless something specifically mentions it, then shields aren't subject to anything in regards to bracers of armor and armor enhancements/abilities on actual armor.
By RAW this is only a case for Bracers of Armor, so unless something specifically mentions it, then shields aren't subject to anything in regards to bracers of armor and armor enhancements/abilities on actual armor.
What would be the reason to not allow it with armor but allow it to work with shields. I'll grant you that there is no text saying "special abilities of shields don't stack" but I don't see how your interpretation could be correct.
The reason not to allow it with Bracers of Armor and Armor is because Bracers of Armor specifically says it. I could give you my opinion as to why, but ultimately I can't tell you the exact reason for this in the rules due to the fact that I don't know for a fact why. I don't understand how this is an interpretation issue when by RAW it says this about bracers of armor, and there seems to be no RAW about shields. Unless something exist then it is you that are making assumptions and are interpreting.
Again, I'm not certain that nothing exist, but if it does, then I would like to know.
"Armor/Shield Bonus: Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus."
I can't find anything that say about enchantment, but shield bonus would not stack with other thing that grant shield bonus... Hm...
"Armor/Shield Bonus: Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus."
I can't find anything that say about enchantment, but shield bonus would not stack with other thing that grant shield bonus... Hm...
So in short, "You can only benefit from one shield at a time".
So in short, "You can only benefit from one shield at a time"."Armor/Shield Bonus: Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus."
I can't find anything that say about enchantment, but shield bonus would not stack with other thing that grant shield bonus... Hm...
If you wanna get picky... nothing in that says two shields wouldn't stack.
Just sayin.
The armor bonus says it doesn't stack with other items or effects.
The shield bonus says it doesn't stack with other effects.
Notice what is missing? Other items.
So, technically, two shields would stack, because it only calls out 'effects' as incompatible.
Well sure, you could argue that. Probably not very successfully, but one can always try.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Unless there's a specific rule out there saying that shield bonuses stack, they do not since they are the same type.
Not sure if this was mentioned, but when a shield is enchanted, say a +2 heavy steel shield. It isnt recorded as a +2 sheield bonus with your sheet and a +2 enhancement bonus. It is just a +4 shield bonus because the enhancement bonus doesnt actually enhance the wielder just the shield.
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I think some of you may be misunderstanding what Human Fighter was trying to say.
The shield bonus to AC from two different shields won't stack, it doesn't seem like he's disputing that. What he's suggesting is that you could have say these two shields:
+1 Fortification(Light) Buckler
+1 Clangorous BucklerThen equip both of those and get a +2 Shield bonus to AC, plus the benefits of both Fortification and Clangorous.
I see no reason the Clangorous and Fortification bonuses in this example wouldn't both be available.
I do. But I use logic and deductive reasoning to reach that conculsion so it probably wouldn't be accepted on the Internet.
Shields have their own item slot. Characters only get one shield slot. You can carry more than one shield, but you only get the benefits of the one you equipped in the shield slot.
I do. But I use logic and deductive reasoning to reach that conculsion so it probably wouldn't be accepted on the Internet.I think some of you may be misunderstanding what Human Fighter was trying to say.
The shield bonus to AC from two different shields won't stack, it doesn't seem like he's disputing that. What he's suggesting is that you could have say these two shields:
+1 Fortification(Light) Buckler
+1 Clangorous BucklerThen equip both of those and get a +2 Shield bonus to AC, plus the benefits of both Fortification and Clangorous.
I see no reason the Clangorous and Fortification bonuses in this example wouldn't both be available.
Your reasoning presented earlier seems to amount to "because you can't do it with armor and bracers of armor"
That's not very sound reasoning, the fact that there is an explicit rule for bracers of armor if anything supports that the general rule is that such things do work, otherwise the specific rule for bracers of armor wouldn't be necessary.
Except the general rule is shields don't stack. Some people looked at that and said since it only refers to shield bonus then surely the other magic enhancements stack. I then pointed out that it doesn't work that way with bracers, why should shields be an exception. The response was because it wasn't specifically spelled out.
If you cannot benefit from the defensive capabilities of more than one shield at a time, it is logical that you would also not benefit from its magical defensive abilities.Since you cannot double up on magic armor, I deduced you probably could not double up on magic shields either.
It's logical, but it isn't stated. If I have a buckler that deflects arrows and another that grants light fortification, I only get the shield bonus from the higher one but get light fortification and the ability to deflect arrows. Why? Nothing is stacking and no where does it say I can't do that. The bonus is never even equivalated to an enhancement bonus (other than by cost), so that argument can't be made.
Further, if you're using a shield as a weapon, you still get its defensive properties. I am therefore lead to believe that the concept of a 'shield slot' is irrelevant. If I hold a dagger in my shield slot, can I enchant it with light fortification? Nah, man. It's just a right and left hand slot. Or more if you're crazy.
Well sure, you could argue that. Probably not very successfully, but one can always try.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.Unless there's a specific rule out there saying that shield bonuses stack, they do not since they are the same type.
Aren't the rules for that in like, the magical effects section or something?
You can argue anything if you really want to. You can even successfully argue anything, really, even if you're wrong. Now, whether or not your argument is successful... that is a different matter entirely.
Surprised you didn't learn the difference >.>
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Well sure, you could argue that. Probably not very successfully, but one can always try.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.Unless there's a specific rule out there saying that shield bonuses stack, they do not since they are the same type.Aren't the rules for that in like, the magical effects section or something?
You can argue anything if you really want to. You can even successfully argue anything, really, even if you're wrong. Now, whether or not your argument is successful... that is a different matter entirely.
Surprised you didn't learn the difference >.>
What is this? I don't even ...
When did I say you can't ever successfully argue even when you're wrong? I simply said it's going to be difficult to be successful when you've got a contrary rules citation staring you in the face.
I could have gone for the cheap laugh there, but obvious joke is obvious. Feel free to keep making petty digs, though. It certainly helps your cause.
I do. But I use logic and deductive reasoning to reach that conculsion so it probably wouldn't be accepted on the Internet.I think some of you may be misunderstanding what Human Fighter was trying to say.
The shield bonus to AC from two different shields won't stack, it doesn't seem like he's disputing that. What he's suggesting is that you could have say these two shields:
+1 Fortification(Light) Buckler
+1 Clangorous BucklerThen equip both of those and get a +2 Shield bonus to AC, plus the benefits of both Fortification and Clangorous.
I see no reason the Clangorous and Fortification bonuses in this example wouldn't both be available.
Your reasoning presented earlier seems to amount to "because you can't do it with armor and bracers of armor"
That's not very sound reasoning, the fact that there is an explicit rule for bracers of armor if anything supports that the general rule is that such things do work, otherwise the specific rule for bracers of armor wouldn't be necessary.
Except the general rule is shields don't stack. Some people looked at that and said since it only refers to shield bonus then surely the other magic enhancements stack. I then pointed out that it doesn't work that way with bracers, why should shields be an exception. The response was because it wasn't specifically spelled out.
If you cannot benefit from the defensive capabilities of more than one shield at a time, it is logical that you would also not benefit from its magical defensive abilities.
Since you cannot double up on magic armor, I deduced you probably could not double up on magic shields either.
To further drive home the point, I do not believe the specific calling out of Bracers and things like Armored Coats undercuts the dual shield argument. The contrary argument is that the dual shield thing should be allowed because Bracers and Coats specifically have rules addressing what happens when you have multiple magical sources providing the same or similar types of benefits (AC enhancements and possible special abilities).
But the argument against that is that these are already specific rules overriding the general state. You can't wear multiple sets of armor. You only have one armor slot; once it's filled, it's filled. So you can't wear full plate on top of your leather armor. Everybody accepts that.
However, both Bracers and Coats allow you to circumvent that. Bracers put your "armor" in a different slot and Coats let you wear armor on top of your armor. So now you effectively can be wearing two suits of armor (or armor equivalent effects). In order to prevent clear exploitation of this, they had to enter specific rules into an already specific rule saying this type of stacking is not allowed.
So why wasn't this specifically done for Shields? There's really no slotless or differently slotted shield magical item (except for the Ring of Force Shield which explicitly says it is wielded just like a shield and isn't something that would typically provide shield special ability enchantments) and there's no shield version of Armored Coats, so there's no opportunity to "shield stack" like you can with armor.
The bottom line is I think it's quite clear that the whole dual wielding of shields wasn't ever contemplated by the Developers as a viable thing, particularly when the core stuff was developed. Even with the archetype that removes TWF penalties for attacks with shields, it's pretty obvious this wasn't created with dual shield wielding in mind, even if people now want to use it that way.
You cannot stack like bonuses, so shield bonuses from multiple sources do not stack. What about special abilities on different shields? Those don't stack either, for the same reason that Bracers' of Armor and Armored Coats' special abilities don't stack with special abilities from regular armor. But BoA and AC both have special written exceptions clarifying that! The only reason shields don't have similar wording is because there's no BoA or AC equivalent for shields to necessitate that sort of entry; it wasn't contemplated that people would be running around dual wielding shields, whether for their offensive or defensive capability (but especially to stack their defensive capabilities).
I once made a character that used two heavy steel shields that were larger than he was. He used monkey grip and oversized two weapon fighting, and improved shield bash. The shields has spikes on them, and the edges had blades on them, so he could hit with blunt/slash/pierce, as he saw fit. Because the shields were bubbled so dramatically(nearly covering him completely), there was no logical reasoning why he wouldn't gain the defenses of both at the same time(though it did limit his visibility). He had a special maneuver where he pulled his arms in turning himself into a ball of metal and would roll around in straight lines only for rounds/con mod(he could change direction each round), after which he'd be dizzy for the same number of rounds which gave him the charging penalty -2 ac(as well as stumble around randomly which could provoke AoO). There was no way it was game breaking, and in this sense, I'd rule that it is allowed, especially since there is no rule that specifically calls out using 2 shields as your primary attack method. I myself didn't use it much for that since the penalties were harsh and logical. I mainly used it to deal with mobs of peons. To put it simply, this is no different than one that wears a shield, and uses a animated shield as well. My ruling is 2 shields stack, but you'd have to have a damn good reason for using 2 shields like that. I tend to side with humor in that regard lol.
^ That's all well and good, but it is undeniably entirely house ruled. Also, please note that I don't mean that pejoratively. The simple fact is that the rules unquestionably cover whether 2 shields stack (particularly in regard to shield bonuses): They do not. Also, typically if you make attacks with shields, you forego any defensive benefit they provide you for that round.
That doesn't mean you can't change that if you want your game to run that way. You certainly can and there's not really anything wrong with that. But, doing so is a departure from the written rules so it'd be best to make sure everyone is on the same page before trying anything like it.
^ That's all well and good, but it is undeniably entirely house ruled. Also, please note that I don't mean that pejoratively. The simple fact is that the rules unquestionably cover whether 2 shields stack (particularly in regard to shield bonuses): They do not. Also, typically if you make attacks with shields, you forego any defensive benefit they provide you for that round.
Aye, that's why I pointed out how it was not broken in any way and simply logical. Not exactly RAW, but eh, it was humorous. BTW, the feat improved shield bash, lets you keep your shield defense from it while using it as a weapon. ;)
Then you can not use or get the benefit from any sort of a Weapon or staff or wand, as there is no slot for it on that list =) now that makes it absurd don't it ?Shields have their own item slot. Characters only get one shield slot. You can carry more than one shield, but you only get the benefits of the one you equipped in the shield slot.
You wield weapons and wands, while you wear the items with slots. Even in the case of a shield you wear it for the defensive bonus, and (unless you have the appropriate feats) you have to enchant it separately if you want an enhancement bonus while wielding it as a weapon.
You can still equip a shield in your other hand.
You don't get a shield bonus but it still functions as a weapon.
Just saying if you ever wanted to act out that one Samurai Jack episode.