Happy Memorial Day to my fellow US gamers and Happy Sunday to all others!
I'm having difficulty with a part of the cross-generation conversion of RtToH and I'm hoping others have encounter something like this and will share their advice.
*Note* - any members of the Friday Knights, please do not read this or I'll send your characters screaming in to the Abyss. Thanks!
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OK, so one of the things about the original adventure from 2Ed. is that there are a lot of things that don't get saves. They just happen if you linger, or slip, or happen to be in range when they trigger. 3.5 and Pathfinder have basically given everything a saving throw. I want to preserve the severity and unrelenting cruelty of the original but I also don't want to turn my players against the game. Instances where there's a clear translation or some other rule applies (spell resistance, etc)aren't an issue. But this circumstance is rather less clear - my players defeated a named bad guy and were checking his sanctum. There were 4 violet stones, each one a conduit to the Negative Energy Plane that allowed the Baddie (who was free-willed undead) to remain 'charged' without having to find living beings to feed from (useful since there aren't a whole lot of the living coming through his neck of the woods).
In the book as written, anyone exposed to the stones (basically, within the sanctum) for 2 rounds has their soul drained and is spontaneously reanimated as free-willed undead. The book even says that it happens so quickly that, after a moment of disorientation, the character may not even realize what's happened until time passes or something else (channeled healing, etc) occurs to alert them that something is different. I'd certainly allow them to continue going with their characters and simply apply templates, but this is my issue - should I somehow assign a save to this, or go as written? The description does tell them they experience intense pain after 1 round and leaves it to them to linger or leave.
I admit to being a bit of a softie when it comes to giving the players some slack, so I'm trying not to overcompensate by being a colossal a$$h@t, but I'd really love some input. Many thanks in advance!
Mr. Gygax created the original Tomb of Horrors as an extreme player challenge - in an original article, he talked about getting sick of players coming up to him at cons and bragging about their "invincible" characters. The dungeon is designed to kill characters. Players can beat it, by thinking originally, by using their environment and by out-puzzling the GM. The 2E expansion is just as deadly.
That's not much help. I think I'd talk to the players, let them know that you're ready to run the adventure, and let them know in advance there were going to be "no saving roll" situations. A lot of them. Give them the chance to say whether or not they want to risk their hard-earned characters in one of the deadliest dungeons of all time: With the understanding that there will be no whining if they die. And give them the option to say "No, we'd rather not."
A second thought: "back in the day" (pre 2e) large parties with multiple henchmen were the norm. Have each player play two characters; One should be the 13-16 recommended by the module, the other maybe 9 - 12. That way you have some red shirts to kill off, and when a player's character gets killed, they have a backup to play.
But here's the other side of it: It's okay to be a bit of a softie in a dungeon like this, as long as your players don't realize you're doing it. You want the players convinced that you will do the happy dance every time one of their characters dies. Go ahead and give them saves where the original did not; but act like you begrudge every saving throw. Convince them that TPK is your goal. Then, if/when they beat the module they'll be bragging and cheering. That's what you want as a GM: If that means they're convinced they put one over on you - great! Nobody feels they have bragging rights if the GM appears to be on the player's side.
One way to look at contraptions like that one is to treat it like any other trap, except there being no Disable Device DC and no XP.
Reasoning:
- Indestructible trap: If anyone with the proper training (trapfinding or engineering) would look for/at the mechanism, they'd learn its basic function and know it to be harmful - and that it can't be shut down.
- No xp: Any interaction that would trigger it would basically be a player choice to engage the trap, with or without that knowledge, and a pretty silly (understatement) one at that; that kind of behaviour shouldn't be rewarded.
Depending on how harsh you want the trap to be - or you, depending on perspective - you can simply increase the damage and/or detection/save DC's to suit the situation.
That's the way I plan to treat them in my in-progress conversion (shameless self-plug - sue me), but there's no true golden rule here. As you said it, the different editions have an inherently mechanical generation-gap that's not always easily filled. In the end, I figure it's up to you; I just hope my two cents were helpful.
Pachristian's point about Gygax is spot on. The original ToH was designed to challenge players, not characters. Keep that in mind as you go forward.
I would say, EITHER give them a save -- set so high that it will be difficult for most characters to make it -- OR give them some sort of warning or chance to escape. So, "suddenly you feel intense pain, like an intense cold that is striking down to the very marrow of your bones" -- that's a warning! That by itself should trigger *get the hell out*. The most typical PC reaction will be something like "am I taking damage? no? then I examine stuff, make a Knowledge (Arcana) roll, ask the cleric to cast Protection from Evil on me, guys do you think I should drink a potion?"
The module is deliberately designed to punish this sort of behavior. That's the whole point. The reason it's interesting (for some of us, anyway) is that it jars players out of their comfort zone. Their standard repertoire no longer works! Much of the time, the only effective response is to *run away*. It's a whole new kind of game experience.
I can tell you right now that some players will love this and some will not. Your results may be better if you give them some advance warning that things are going to get different and crazy from here on out.
Doug M.
Also, if you're going to use 3e style saving throws, I recommend that you have bad stuff happen even if the PC saves. And by "bad stuff" I don't mean damage or ability drain or negative levels -- high level PCs laugh that stuff off. I mean something like "Congratulations! You made your save! All that happens is that your right arm turns black and shrivels into a useless, withered claw. You are effectively one-armed. No, Regenerate does nothing -- fixing your arm will require a Miracle or Wish. Good thing you made your save, though."
It won't take many incidents like this for your players to start becoming very nervous about rolling saves.
Doug M.
I've converted the Return to 3.5e. Yet to run it, but I plan to do so in my current campaign. Here's how I converted the Sensorium:
By the way, what's your party's average level at this point?
Option B: all them TOO MANY SAVES... have one trap set off 10 more... sooner or later they will roll a 1. Just saying... This allows them the benefit of feeling like they are "winning" right up to the point they lose. As a GM should do.
supervillan wrote: I've converted the Return to 3.5e. Yet to run it, but I plan to do so in my current campaign. Here's how I converted the Sensorium:
** spoiler omitted **
By the way, what's your party's average level at this point?
Sorry for the delay in response - real life is such a pain!
They are level 16. I ended up allowing their armor to kick in (it was Deathless) but no save - situational clues were provided in place of a save (oppurtunity to avoid the effect) and the Paladin ended up a Deathknight. Good bye Holy Bow, hello Blade Perilous! The player thought it was hysterical. I allowed him to become LE, since they're freewilled and this was not a normal creation for a Deathknight. So far the party is adapting well, though they have no main healer and a limited number of healing sources to draw from (heh heh heh).
To Everyone: Thank you so much for your input on this question. I'm relatively new to running PF (I usually run d10 systems) so I appreciate your willingness to help.
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