Serpentine bloodline + Eldritch Heritage

[Javiash]

Hi, so here this is my doubt... I have a sorcerer with the serpentine bloodline that in lvl 3 he gains a familiar, and I also put him the Eldritch Heritage feat choosing the arcane bloodline also gaining a familiar...

I know that he won't have two familiars, that the levels stacks, but is it for ever? I mean is, in level 3 my familiar is level 2 (-2 serpentine blood line, -2 Eldritch Heritage), so in level 4 is level 4? And in level 5 is level 6, and so on, and so on??

Thanks.

[KainPen]

you would have two familiars. it an extra set of powers that function as sorc -2 levels lower then your total character level. Thus if you multi class one familar would(the one from the feat)contiune to grow in power while the other would would not. one familar gets stronger based on character level the other on Sorc level.

[BigDTBone]

KainPen wrote:

you would have two familiars. it an extra set of powers that function as sorc -2 levels lower then your total character level. Thus if you multi class one familar would(the one from the feat)contiune to grow in power while the other would would not. one familar gets stronger based on character level the other on Sorc level.

This is not true. The familiar ability specifically states that it does stack with other familiar granting abilities.

Yes the levels stack, and yes the stacked levels can exceed your level.

[ShadowcatX]

BigDTBone wrote:

KainPen wrote:

you would have two familiars. it an extra set of powers that function as sorc -2 levels lower then your total character level. Thus if you multi class one familar would(the one from the feat)contiune to grow in power while the other would would not. one familar gets stronger based on character level the other on Sorc level.

This is not true. The familiar ability specifically states that it does stack with other familiar granting abilities.

Yes the levels stack, and yes the stacked levels can exceed your level.

The way animal companions used to work, if you had two different sources of animal companions, and one was from a restricted list and one was not from a restricted list, then you had a choice to make, you could have a single companion from the restricted list and another companion from the non-restricted list and they would be independent of one another.

However, that was years ago and I'm not sure if it functions the same now, or if that would apply to familiars.

[KainPen]

I just looked at both bloodline and I was wrong but, they don't stack because they use the same wording one give you a familiar or bonded object with Sorc levels = to wizard level, and stacks with any wizard levels you gain. (because this is coming from a feat it is treated as 2 levels lower).

the other gives you a familiar at Sorc level = to wizard level -2 and stacks with any actual wizard levels you have. it the exact same wording. There for it does not stack with itself, you can't double dip. but if you do go up as a level of wizard you it does stack. which may cause some stange effect with the feat, becasue the feat is based on total character level.

[BigDTBone]

KainPen wrote:

I just looked at both bloodline and I was wrong but, they don't stack because they use the same wording one give you a familiar or bonded object with Sorc levels = to wizard level, and stacks with any wizard levels you gain. (because this is coming from a feat it is treated as 2 levels lower).

the other gives you a familiar at Sorc level = to wizard level -2 and stacks with any actual wizard levels you have. it the exact same wording. There for it does not stack with itself, you can't double dip. but if you do go up as a level of wizard you it does stack. which may cause some stange effect with the feat, becasue the feat is based on total character level.

Right, they both give you an effective wizard level for determining the powers of your familiar, and they both reference how to stack with your other wizard levels. This is not difficult.

[KainPen]

For whatever reason I though the arcane bloodline just gave you a familiar (did not realize it changed your sorc levels in to wizard levels). I had never seen serpentine bloodline before, So I figured it just gave you a familiar also. hence why I said 2. but they both preform the same function change sorc levels in to wizard levels. this is an effect, so you can't double up and pass the level limit as you stated. the effect overlaps as all other effects do and you take the highest bonus in this example it is the same bonus. if starting bloodline was arcane and not serpentine. you would use that instead as arcane as there is no loss of levels. but it does become strange with the feat and multi classing as a wizard, then it would be possible to break the level limit.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

It stacks naturally, I have yet to see anything anywhere that says you can't double dip, that's a false notion. The only occasion is when it comes from the same source, but the sources here are two separate abilities, so they stack.

So, at level 3 your ewl (effective wizard level) when determining the abilities of your viper familiar is 2 (level -2 + sorc levels-2). To level 10 you'd have an ewl of 16. Level 20, you'd have 36 (more if you have greater eldritch heritage). Nothing here is broken, it gets abilities a little faster and has a good amount of AC.

[KainPen]

never said it was broken, but they don't stack with each other, otherwise speed, would stack with haste and other similar effects, keen would stack with improved critical and other effects like it, evasion would stack with itself to grant improved evasion, enlarge person and beast shape don't stack with each other both are a polymorph effect, impact does not stack with lead blades and many more. It is the same effect use the exact same wording, sorc level become wizard level this can only be done once it is an over lapping effect. The only portion that stacks is when you actual take a wizard level.

look at it this way how many sorc levels do you have 4 right how many possible sorc level are there 4. How many sorc levels can be converted only 4. You can’t not have any more sorc level then you have(exception robe of arcane heritage increase it by +4). Since it is the same effect and fuction, you it over laps meaning you take the one with the highest possible level conversion. In this case it is neither one as sorc level is at -2 for total of 2.

Now if you take Arcane bloodline as primary and serpentine as feat. and you level 11 (have to be because of the feat) you have 11 total sorc levels to treat as wizard level.
So Arcane based Familiar is based off level 11 total wizard level, serpentine as feat would be total character level -2 = total possible sorc level is 9, serpentine familiar says your sorc level -2 so you’re looking at total possible of 7. Which is greater since this is the same effect the 11 so it treated as level 11.

Now take the same example above but change him into Sorc4 Wiz6 for the again what is the total number of sorc levels are there 4. But because the way the feat function the total for the feats concern is 9 because total character level 11-2. Now we take another -2 off serpent power gives 7 which is greater 4 or 7 the 7. So effected sorc levels are 7 now you add the actual wizard levels because that is what stacks actual wizard levels for 7+6= 13, you just broke the level limit, that is the only way to do it, because these effects are the same.

Other interesting effects, take arcane as your bloodline and pick bonded object then serpentine as bloodline, guess what you just end up with bonded object and familiar.

[ryric]

Yeah, while it may seem "broken" to double-count levels this way, you really don't get much. The familiar's hp, skills, saves, and so forth still are just copies of yours. All you get is the ability to use better rows on the familiar table - so your snake is smarter, has a better natural armor, and more special abilities. Arguably once your effective level passes 20 you no longer get any more of that stuff, unless your GM is nice and extrapolates the table.

So you spent a feat to get at "scry on familiar" earlier and a few points of AC on your snake. Eh. Not broken.

[BigDTBone]

KainPen wrote:

never said it was broken, but they don't stack with each other, otherwise speed, would stack with haste and other similar effects, keen would stack with improved critical and other effects like it, evasion would stack with itself to grant improved evasion, enlarge person and beast shape don't stack with each other both are a polymorph effect, impact does not stack with lead blades and many more. It is the same effect use the exact same wording, sorc level become wizard level this can only be done once it is an over lapping effect. The only portion that stacks is when you actual take a wizard level.

look at it this way how many sorc levels do you have 4 right how many possible sorc level are there 4. How many sorc levels can be converted only 4. You can’t not have any more sorc level then you have(exception robe of arcane heritage increase it by +4). Since it is the same effect and fuction, you it over laps meaning you take the one with the highest possible level conversion. In this case it is neither one as sorc level is at -2 for total of 2.

Now if you take Arcane bloodline as primary and serpentine as feat. and you level 11 (have to be because of the feat) you have 11 total sorc levels to treat as wizard level.
So Arcane based Familiar is based off level 11 total wizard level, serpentine as feat would be total character level -2 = total possible sorc level is 9, serpentine familiar says your sorc level -2 so you’re looking at total possible of 7. Which is greater since this is the same effect the 11 so it treated as level 11.

Now take the same example above but change him into Sorc4 Wiz6 for the again what is the total number of sorc levels are there 4. But because the way the feat function the total for the feats concern is 9 because total character level 11-2. Now we take another -2 off serpent power gives 7 which is greater 4 or 7 the 7. So effected sorc levels are 7 now you add the actual wizard levels because that is what stacks actual wizard levels for 7+6= 13, you just broke the level...

All the examples you list either don't stack because they are the same kind of bonus (enlarge person and beast shape are both size bonuses), don't stack because they explicitly state that they don't stack (improved critical and keen), or are just silly examples of things which don't provide a numerical bonus to stack (evasion with itself).

The familiar granting abilities listed by the OP have none of those issues.