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Ah, good catch, Damocles. My bad.
Seriously, though, why are we still talking about this? No matter what, I think we can all agree Pax isn't going to change their stance, and those who dislike Pax's stance aren't going to change theirs. All this is doing is making people dislike each other even more. As if we needed more drama.
Morbis, I'm including you in this question. In my opinion, you should be glad the discussion is over and stop posting on it/certain other threads making pointed comments.
I hope you'll give my request a bit of weight, since I've been on your side this whole debate.
For better or for worse, this talk is done. It's not (and hasn't been) helping anyone.
Further posts on the matter, no matter how slight, are born either of ignorance or born of spite.
Treat them accordingly, stop wasting your time. And don't ask me why I kinda started to rhyme.
Goblin Squad Member
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Morbis, I'm including you in this question. In my opinion, you should be glad the discussion is over and stop posting on it/certain other threads making pointed comments.
Yeah, I'm done. A week of frustration and worry boiled over. No more pointed posts from Morbis.
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Ooh, let's have a competition to see who can get the thousandth post! If Nihimon gets it, Pax Golgotha gets kicked off. If Bluddwolf gets it, Nihimon has to give back Bluddwolf's rake he borrowed two years ago and never returned, giving rise to their ancient enmity. If the elves get it, the dwarves have to shave their lovely silky beards. If the dwarves get it, the elves have to take off their fake ear points. If I get it, I get to make a pointless parody Chartered Company thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have some questions:
1: If the Pax Community is so adamant that they are not the same guild, why is Pax Fidelis not in the Landrush 2?
2: When Pax was awarded a settlement in Landrush 1, did the entire Pax community put in input as to where the location chosen would be or did only 1 Division have any input or authority over what happened with the settlement?
3: If T7V or TEO were to want to open another settlement and "Guild" within our own communities and have them as part of the Landrush 2 as they have members who have always planned their own Guilds/CCs that won't work out of the currently aligned settlements, would the community and Pax see this as wrong?
4: If this same situation had happened to T7V or TEO, such as half of TEO splitting off with Andius within TEO for a different settlement location (had that situation gone down that way) would Pax or any of its divisions seen this as cheating?
5: Would Pax Golgotha honestly hold everyone who was confused, felt cheated, or just disagreed with them as enemies? What if the situation was reversed?
6: What should Pax, T7V and TEO do now that this standard has been set?
1- Fidelis is with Ozem's Vigil now. I would assume Fidelis votes go along with that. Not my lane, don't quote me.
2- Aeternum made the call. We took insight from everyone, but Aeternum members votes are the only ones that counted. This went down much the same way we assume TEO/T7V talks did. We heard Golgotha insight but made our own decision. I personally have voice my objections to Golgotha's choice, but its their call. Not mine, not Aeternum's.
3- If it serves an actual purpose (Shadowhaven) yes. Divying up just to get more settlements, no. I would also not object if T7V joined CotP or if there was LE branch of CotP that sprouted up. Phaeros and Brighthaven cannot support that play style. You have a legitimate reason to need another settlement.
I would hope that you would look to broker training from allies first if at all possible. Personally, I will likely have to look elsewhere for training as I plan on playing a Barbarian. We would look to broker a deal with a chaotic settlement before trying to attain one ourselves as it would not fit within the Xeilian Empire as we currently understand the mechanics.
4- I expected that to happen. I seriously thought more folks would follow Andius and we would see another settlement pop up. Bludd and Andius surprised us all. I think everyone that has an EE account should get a vote. I accept that those that already voted cannot vote again. I don't think anyone should be handcuffed when it comes to voting. I wouldn't see it as cheating, but I don't trust Andius as far as I can throw him, so I can't say I wouldn't be suspicious.
5- I can't speak for them. We have TRIED to be as transparent as possible. How long has that Golgotha thread been up? I respect people's opinions that they don't think it is in the spirit of the land rush. I reject peoples attempt to contort and twist things so they fit the dialogue they want people to hear. Pax has been, is, and will always be a community of guilds. Anyone that went past, "I disagree with you but you are following the rules as they were provided" after we explained ourselves at length will likely see my blade a couple of hundred times. EDIT*** That is just because if Golgotha was out of bounds, GW wouldn't have allowed them in the first place.*** If the situation were reversed, in a PvP game, I would expect no less. I don't expect any less right now. I'm sure there are people that want my corpse to carpet Golarion. Come and make it happen =).
6- Breathe and reflect.
**These are my opinions and not those of Pax Aeternum or Pax Gaming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But we're soooo close to 20 pages!
But seriously, I'm kinda glad this discussion was made. I, for one, had misconceptions about the situation, and they were cleared up.
I can fully understand the opposition, including Nihimon (albeit I can't fully agree with him, mostly due to choice in words) and several others whom I cannot name right now due to an empty stomach. And I can understand the need to call-out Golgotha and have them explain their actions.
And they did.
And now there's (thankfully) nothing really left to argue. The cards are all on the table. Some people's opinions of the situation will likely never change.
I think that a close eye should be kept on Golgotha and all Pax [guilds], but just as much as any other [guild] in this race - including all of those belonging to the Accord, as just one example.
Obviously there are some personal wars here, now. Some "blacklists" have been forged. But I don't see the need. I would advise everyone on both sides of this argument to just take the other's with a grain of salt, and move on.
In fact, I would expect some apologies out of a few people here, particularly the loudest voices, on both sides. And not apologies worded like, "I'm sorry, but I still think you're wrong!". I'm just thinking something along the lines of, "I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings or made you feel like you were being attacked," or "I'm sorry I was so super-defensive." And that's it. Period. [(added:) I would expect a sincere apology would simple end right there without any extra words.]
I don't expect alliances to be made here. Just as human beings, let's just play nice with each other.
(And I don't want to see stuff like "I WAS playing nice, it was this guy...". That's just childish.)
And before clicking that Reply button: yes, I know. I sound like a mom or something here. I'm not - I'm just sick of the fighting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the replies Kard and Areks. I was hoping more people would reply as well because the matter is settled (and I'm happy for Golgotha) but the future is not, and I personally as a member of one of the 3 that won, am interested in how the community thinks we all should proceed based on how this matter was settled. Plus I want to see who gets the 1k post!
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I'm making a Kill List. It has everyone on the forums. Once everyone has been killed at least once, I win a free iphone.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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To Nihimon. ... You had plenty of time to address your concerns with our community before the landrush privately with us. We even spoke to you about it and no complaints were raised to us.
As part of a good and positive community, I have to point out that this is a lie.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...cut and moved here due to relevance...
For the record, I understand members of Golgotha have an interest in having a settlement. I understand the leadership of Golgotha, including up the chain in Pax, has a job to support their community as they are able. I have no doubt, as Morbis expressed earlier, there was quit a bit of stress within Golgotha and Pax as LR2 unfurled as it did. I can understand, based on your stated goals and community connections that this all must be very frustrating for you Hobs. I understand all your position even if I do not agree with certain decisions, I understand why they were made.
For my own part, I would like to apologize for any difficulty or hard feelings I might have contributed to; it was just never my intent to hurt, frustrate, irritate, annoy, or cause trouble for anyone. I also need to caveat that...I still believe what I have said...but I have no doubt I could have done it better and more constructively. I think many of us could have, and moving forward I will attempt to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Allow me to answer the question about the votes. Those were votes from Fidelis members who did not vote in Land Rush 1. They were pulled to throw our support behind our new home, Ozem's Vigil, and as such, had nothing to do with this discussion.
I hope this clears things up.
I think we all know they were pulled.
But why though?
There are no rules saying they cannot vote if they haven't already.
And its been made clear that Gol wont be pulled.So, my question is, why not use those votes and any other vote from new members that any of the pax guilds get?
Because Fidelas will be residing in Ozems Vigil by their own choice. And are throwing their votes behind it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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T7V... you should think LONG and HARD about how the actions of your leaders will play out in game. Indecisiveness will get you killed and Phaeros razed.
Well, better be razed than jumping out of the ship at the first occasion, especially when you're ignoring the main problem : GW pillorised you, asking for the community to judge you, and then washed their hands.
I didn't agree with Nihimon about this affair. I don't care. I'm not gonna let him take the heat of a bad, cruel, and arbitrary decision from GW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because Fidelas will be residing in Ozems Vigil by their own choice. And are throwing their votes behind it.Allow me to answer the question about the votes. Those were votes from Fidelis members who did not vote in Land Rush 1. They were pulled to throw our support behind our new home, Ozem's Vigil, and as such, had nothing to do with this discussion.
I hope this clears things up.
I think we all know they were pulled.
But why though?
There are no rules saying they cannot vote if they haven't already.
And its been made clear that Gol wont be pulled.So, my question is, why not use those votes and any other vote from new members that any of the pax guilds get?
Exactly right. Thank you for stating it so concisely.
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The world doesn't revolve around American Politics. :P
Fine Gael - Center Right
Labour Party - Center Left
Fianna Fáil - Center Right
Sinn Féin - Left-wing
United Left - Far Left
Socialist Party - Far Left
People Before Profit Alliance - Left-wing
And those are just the political organisations that have seats in Parliament.
Of the three new political parties formed in the last decade two of them have seats in Dáil Éireann!
The more you know!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon... are you listening?
Of course I am. I've been here for well over two years. I've had this kind of abuse directed at me before - although it's never felt as coordinated - and I'll gladly Stand Tall in the face of it again and again, just as I've gladly stood up to the bullies who try to ridicule and silence new posters who come here to express these kinds of concerns:
Some players are very concerned that this kind of system leads inexorably to what we call a "murder simulator" - a game that degenerates into endless ganking, griefing, and harassment that ruins the experience for everyone.
Goblinworks is committed to the idea that we can re-introduce PvP as a meaningful part of the ways players interact without allowing the game to degenerate in that fashion.
I've been conscious of the fact that I'm writing to the people who read the forums - a much larger community than those who post here - for most of the time I've been here. I think anyone who looks at the situation objectively realizes that, for the purpose of this Land Rush, Pax Gaming is one Guild. That Pax Gaming has chosen to ignore Ryan's requests and viciously attack and threaten me for trying to hold them to a higher standard has not gone unnoticed.
I have to ask, did you think I would go running with my tail between my legs when Ryan "clarified" Goblinworks' position - the one that's been consistent since before this thread was started? I realize Pax Gaming thinks it's a huge victory, hell every division is celebrating their great "victory" all over these forums. But it's a hollow victory. You managed to show the community that you could care less about any restrictions that can't be enforced, and that all of Pax Gaming is a coordinated force that will viciously attack the character of anyone who disagrees with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The world doesn't revolve around American Politics. :P
Well aware of that. I'm Canadian, so we have no Democrats or Republicans either (that's the short version) I used the two as they are the most likely to be identified by the most participants. And possibly a bit more toxic toward each other than the parties of many (not all) other lands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golgotha is not like a military unit in one national army. The 82nd Airborne Div can not just say one day "We are not fighting for you, we are fighting for Canada now".
They are one division, within one army, within one nationalized military.
Golgotha came in as an independent, are run independently, and they can go out as independently as they came.
No matter how many times it is said otherwise won't change this. No matter how many times it is said "they are a special case", will not make that true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon... are you listening?Of course I am. I've been here for well over two years. I've had this kind of abuse directed at me before - although it's never felt as coordinated - and I'll gladly Stand Tall in the face of it again and again, just as I've gladly stood up to the bullies who try to ridicule and silence new posters who come here to express these kinds of concerns:
Some players are very concerned that this kind of system leads inexorably to what we call a "murder simulator" - a game that degenerates into endless ganking, griefing, and harassment that ruins the experience for everyone.
Goblinworks is committed to the idea that we can re-introduce PvP as a meaningful part of the ways players interact without allowing the game to degenerate in that fashion.I've been conscious of the fact that I'm writing to the people who read the forums - a much larger community than those who post here - for most of the time I've been here. I think anyone who looks at the situation objectively realizes that, for the purpose of this Land Rush, Pax Gaming is one Guild. That Pax Gaming has chosen to ignore Ryan's requests and viciously attack and threaten me for trying to hold them to a higher standard has not gone unnoticed.
I have to ask, did you think I would go running with my tail between my legs when Ryan "clarified" Goblinworks' position - the one that's been consistent since before this thread was started? I realize Pax Gaming thinks it's a huge victory, hell every division is celebrating their great "victory" all over these forums. But it's a hollow victory. You managed to show the community that you could care less about any restrictions that can't be enforced, and that all of Pax Gaming is a coordinated force that will viciously attack the character of anyone who disagrees with them.
no coordination required. Just people that are sick of listening to you. You crap all over us for a week and you don't think we're going to be pissed?you can try to wrap it up in what's best for the community and what you feel is right all you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's pretty obvious which way I lean but I've been quiet so here goes:
Pax Gaming is a community of independent guilds ruled by a single charter. Basically it's a don't be a jerk charter. Each guild has their own leader who rules as she or he sees fit. Each guild leader of the full divisions is a member of the inner sanctum. The IS only has the power to enforce the don't be a jerk charter. Almost like an end user agreement for a gaming linkedin.
I see Golgotha as a completely separate entity from Aeternum aside from being fellow Paxians. As a matter of fact I was rather worried about having an influx of what I perceived to be a group of hardcore PvPers into Pax. As I prove to myself time and again perception is the domain of the ignorant as the Golgothan folks have proven to be good people.
My girlfriend is the Guildleader of a Wildstar commons guild within Pax. She is not told what to do with her guild and as a commons guild she isn't even in the IS. She picks her own officers within the guild.
If you take a guild in Pax and separate it from the community as a whole it is indistinguishable from a normal guild in any other mmo. The only exception being the common charter of behavior. That's not that different as any guild worth its salt has some form of charter in my opinion.
Do guilds within Pax come into conflict? Yes. The conflict is a little more meaningful in this game as you can lose your stuff but we love to kill each other. I'll purposefully queue on opposite sides of the fence in games to fight against other Paxians. We laugh about it in team speak after they curse me a little.
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Goblin Squad Member
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no coordination required. Just people that are sick of listening to you. You crap all over us for a week and you don't think we're going to be pissed?you can try to wrap it up in what's best for the community and what you feel is right all you want.
If you, and your Golgothans, feel you were so much in the 'right', why did you all get so bent out of shape about us sharing our opinions?
Seems to me your defensiveness belies a guilty conscious. Funny how the Golgotha membership has reduced by a few over the last few days... Actions speak much louder than words.
Maybe that is what you are more scared of: that Nihimon would actually get through to the good-natured (albeit few) individuals in Golgotha and they would see the truth of the matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We moved Fidelus away. Golgotha has only grown from this drama.
Might wanna try a different tact than "See, we convinced some of you!"
And we weren't worried about you. We were never scared of you. We were worried that Dancey might be "capricious and arbitrary" and decide that we were in some way undeserving.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We moved Fidelus away. Golgotha has only grown from this drama.
Might wanna try a different tact than "See, we convinced some of you!"
And we weren't worried about you. We were never scared of you. We were worried that Dancey might be "capricious and arbitrary" and decide that we were in some way undeserving.
I don't believe you were worried about Ryan at all. He said from the very start that he would not force Pax to do anything.
No one said you were scared of 'us'.
You were scared that we were right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you, and your Golgothans, feel you were so much in the 'right', why did you all get so bent out of shape about us sharing our opinions?
Seems to me your defensiveness belies a guilty conscious. Funny how the Golgotha membership has reduced by a few over the last few days... Actions speak much louder than words.
Maybe that is what you are more scared of: that Nihimon would actually get through to the good-natured (albeit few) individuals in Golgotha and they would see the truth of the matter.
Have you considered what the thread would look like if Golgotha did not tell their people to stay out of it? People keep saying that the thread was not even that bad; it wasn't by accident.
But what's bothering me is the characterization you still insist on; you are "sharing your opinions" while people on our side are attacking character and being no-good schemers. Drek was slung on both sides. Pro-Golgothans were a*#es, and Anti-Golgothans were a*#es, because people are losing sight of why we are even here. All anybody wants here is a game that we can all enjoy (yes, all of us). Can we please stop attacking each other and get on with trying to make the game the best game ever, of all time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You crap all over us for a week and you don't think we're going to be pissed?
You don't think I was pissed when I saw you were telling everyone in Pax Aeternum (who hadn't already voted for Pax Aeternum in LR1) to vote for Pax Golgotha? But I'll tell you I wasn't pissed because you were gaining an advantage, I was pissed because you put me in a position where - for a brief moment - I thought "we need to do the same"... And I hated myself for even thinking that.
Pax Gaming's gonna do what Pax Gaming's gonna do, and no one's going to stop them - not Goblinworks, not me, not "the community". The only force that can change your behavior is your Members. You're hiding behind the exact same fiction that any other "large Guild" could hide behind to put as many entries on the Land Rush as they wanted.
TEO could do the exact same thing, create a separate "division" on their website, and funnel enough votes that didn't vote for them in LR1 to probably get the 2nd spot on the Leaderboard. And they'd probably even be able to do it so that all their Members who voted for this "shadow Guild" would actually reside in the new Settlement they got. I'm incredibly proud to be associated with them because they have enough honor to resist that temptation.
If nothing else, this thread has served to illuminate the differences between us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You crap all over us for a week and you don't think we're going to be pissed?You don't think I was pissed when I saw you were telling everyone in Pax Aeternum (who hadn't already voted for Pax Aeternum in LR1) to vote for Pax Golgotha? But I'll tell you I wasn't pissed because you were gaining an advantage, I was pissed because you put me in a position where - for a brief moment - I thought "we need to do the same"... And I hated myself for even thinking that.
Pax Gaming's gonna do what Pax Gaming's gonna do, and no one's going to stop them - not Goblinworks, not me, not "the community". The only force that can change your behavior is your Members. You're hiding behind the exact same fiction that any other "large Guild" could hide behind to put as many entries on the Land Rush as they wanted.
TEO could do the exact same thing, create a separate "division" on their website, and funnel enough votes that didn't vote for them in LR1 to probably get the 2nd spot on the Leaderboard. And they'd probably even be able to do it so that all their Members who voted for this "shadow Guild" would actually reside in the new Settlement they got. I'm incredibly proud to be associated with them because they have enough honor to resist that temptation.
If nothing else, this thread has served to illuminate the differences between us.
I've attempted to steer clear of this conversation, but honestly, that is just plain stupid and wrong.
You've just insinuated that Golgotha is a "shadow" guild, when it's plain to everyone that they existed prior to joining Pax as a coalition of other guilds.
Pax Gaming as a whole has been honest, transparent and upfront during this entire affair.
Thats a disgusting insinuation against the free people of Golgotha, Nihimon.
Take your petty crusade elsewhere, you're simply affirming that this is some kind of grudge on your part.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If nothing else, this thread has served to illuminate the differences between us.
As someone who has read all 19 pages of this garbage before commenting, I actually have no idea what purpose this thread has served, ever since the point when you jumped back in after Golgotha reverted the votes people felt were improper and turned this into a referendum on Golgotha's right to exist.
I have been on these forums from the beginning and on the Paizo forums since long before that and this is the absolutely most toxic b#*&%%~~ I have seen so far. Before I left this community for several months I would have never in a million years guessed that you, Nihimon, would become the sort to perpetuate this crap across multiple threads for over a week.
I gleefully await the carnage that will ensue once everyone gets into the game itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I gleefully await the carnage that will ensue once everyone gets into the game itself.And I will be part of the hand that exacts that carnage! The Bloody Hand!
(see what I did there!)
I just want to see blood and tears failing to extinguish the flaming remains of the high and mighty's hubris.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You crap all over us for a week and you don't think we're going to be pissed?You don't think I was pissed when I saw you were telling everyone in Pax Aeternum (who hadn't already voted for Pax Aeternum in LR1) to vote for Pax Golgotha? But I'll tell you I wasn't pissed because you were gaining an advantage, I was pissed because you put me in a position where - for a brief moment - I thought "we need to do the same"... And I hated myself for even thinking that.
Pax Gaming's gonna do what Pax Gaming's gonna do, and no one's going to stop them - not Goblinworks, not me, not "the community". The only force that can change your behavior is your Members. You're hiding behind the exact same fiction that any other "large Guild" could hide behind to put as many entries on the Land Rush as they wanted.
TEO could do the exact same thing, create a separate "division" on their website, and funnel enough votes that didn't vote for them in LR1 to probably get the 2nd spot on the Leaderboard. And they'd probably even be able to do it so that all their Members who voted for this "shadow Guild" would actually reside in the new Settlement they got. I'm incredibly proud to be associated with them because they have enough honor to resist that temptation.
If nothing else, this thread has served to illuminate the differences between us.
Your complaint that pissed you off has been rectified. They adjusted based on community feedback. You want to continue to bemoan about how they had 'evil' intentions? Great. Go write a blog. The rest of us would like to move on with things that are more productive.
And what is this pleading to Pax Members to force the leadership behavior? What behavior do you want changed? As I have mentioned before, they have addressed concerns from the community and have made changes. Or are you just asking for dissension among the ranks?
You've done a lot for this community Nihimon, but I've lost a lot of respect for you lately. I would like to think we could perhaps reach out to working with the Accord someday. But that is looking from my viewpoint (and mine alone) that you (and you alone) are making this increasingly more difficult. I am asking you to drop this. Bury the hatchet and let others of the Accord deal with Pax. It's obvious at this point that this has gotten personal and I for one do not think any good can come from continuing this.
edited- so my post seems less heated.
(P.S. This is me the player posting once again and not any way representative of my settlement. I speak for myself and myself alone.)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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We moved Fidelus away. Golgotha has only grown from this drama.
Might wanna try a different tact than "See, we convinced some of you!"
And we weren't worried about you. We were never scared of you. We were worried that Dancey might be "capricious and arbitrary" and decide that we were in some way undeserving.
"We"? Fidelis isn't independent of Golgotha?
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Goblin Squad Member
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We, as in we removed the votes so that they could go where they wished. They moved to Ozems on their own will. It would have been better for Golgotha if they hadn't. But they are their own entity, they make their own decisions. They are our friends, and we want them to succeed. Who are we to stop them finding their own way?
"We"? Fidelis isn't independent of Golgotha?We moved Fidelus away. Golgotha has only grown from this drama.
Might wanna try a different tact than "See, we convinced some of you!"
And we weren't worried about you. We were never scared of you. We were worried that Dancey might be "capricious and arbitrary" and decide that we were in some way undeserving.
No, I rule in all of the lands of Pax. Every member succumbs to my will.