Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
Quote:I don't necessarily believe Pax is trying to game the system with Golgotha, but that will likely be the perception of newcomers. Pax would be making a noble sacrifice by removing Golgotha, and I, at least, would support them thereafter in whatever ways I could to make up for that sacrifice.No. We will not be punished for the inability of others to do the most basic of research. We will not be martyred so that the 'community' can feel as if they are pushing off the Big Scary Goons. We will not suffer any more attacks on the legitimacy of Golgotha. We are done with this. Unless Dancey removes us from the leaderboard, Pax Golgotha will be continuing on as planned.
No more. This has gone on long enough. Finish it tonight.
And just to be clear, this isn't just Morbis's opinion. He speaks for all officers of Golgotha with that statement.
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Pax Feydred Goblin Squad Member |
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I think it's time I chime in. I've been a member of Pax guilds for about ten years so I have a better understanding of Pax than most.
Until about two years ago every Pax guild had a separate website and leadership. The only thing that unified the guilds was the strict adherence to the Pax charter. Being a member of one Pax guild allowed guild masters to vet a player into their guild knowing that player had gone through a recruitment process and was accepted.
For me to change Pax guilds from CoH to WoW was a labor intensive process where an officer from WoW would have to contact an officer from CoH to make sure I was who I said I was.
To unify the guilds using the Pax charter, Rawn created the Pax Gaming website. Each guild has its own independent section and independent guild master and officers.
I am a member of Aeternum and have zero say about what happens in Golgotha. Only the members of Golgotha do. A few months ago I volunteered to work on a project for Golgotha and I was teased! "Let them do that for themselves."!
This is not an opinion: Pax is not one guild. It's a vetting service with a charter that the various guilds adhere to.
Golgotha is a conglomerate of three guilds. Not every member of Golgotha is a member of Pax Gaming. How do you nay-sayers tell those paying customers they have no right to be in the landrush?
Paxman |
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For the last week, I have been following this thread. For the last week I have refrained from weighing in on this thread in any capacity outside clarification of minor details, aswell as to answer such questions that I felt I could answer for my Company: Golgotha without further spreading confusion.
I make this post as an individual, as a member of the Pax Gaming Community, and as a member of the Company Golgotha.
I have read page after page of misinformation, biased conjecture and vitriol. I will no longer remain silent.
I have many people I wish to address directly, many who I may not directly address and the paizo Pathfinder Online community as a whole to address.
First, I wish to clarify what my understanding is a guild as it relates to this discussion. A guild is an independant body of players that come together to play a game the way they want to play the game. A guild is not defined by the website they use, they are defined by their goals, their players and their allies. Golgotha, Aeternum and Fidelis have an independant playerbase. Golgotha, Aeternum and Fidelis have their own independant way of playing games. Golgotha, Aeternum and Fidelis have their own independant Leadership. Golgotha, Aeternum and Fidelis have their own independant goals. Golgotha, Aeternum and Fidelis have their own independance with regards to what they do inside the game. Golgotha officers and leadership have NO power over members of Aeternum and Fidelis, nor do officers from Aeternum and Fidelis have power over members of Golgotha and finally officers of Aeternum and Fidelis have NO power over the membership of any member outside their respective GUILDS. Does that sound like one unified guild?
Pax is not a guild. Golgotha is a guild[Chartered Company]. Aeternum is a guild. Fidelis is a guild.
Pax is a community. There is no officially recognised guild anywhere from Pax known as "Pax". Every single guild in Pax has their own Leadership, Goals, Membership and game to play. If you are an officer in one guild in the Pax community you are unable to be a leader in another Pax community guild.
Golgotha was formed independantly from Aeternum. Golgotha joined the Pax Gaming community, but they did not join the Pax Gaming GUILD. How can three groups, with entirely different and and unique players be considered one and the same? They can't, and anyone who has considered them eitherway I proclaim them to be misguided, biased or downright malicious.
In a game of political maneuvering and posturing the very NOTION of allowing the community to make a decision where a large portion of the community is biased due to the fact that they have something to gain by shutting down a free, independant and honest guild's chances of participating meaningfully in the landrush has left a extremely bad taste in my mouth with regards to Goblinworks - particularly Ryan Dancey's - ability to remain impartial and fair to the community at large. Were I willing to abandon my comrades I would have left this game already and moved to greener pastures free from bias.
At no point has any member of Pax Gaming, Aeternum, Golgotha or Fidelis made an effort to conceal our percieved "underhandedness". We have done everything we could possibly do within the limitations of the universe to be open, honest and accepting of criticism.
As with any drama of this nature you have to look at the source - who benifits from this thread? Who gains from repeatedly and underhandedly taking our legitimacy from a place of understanding a security and uncerimoniously shove it under a magnifying glass of unjust scrutiny and slander? I wont answer that question for you, anyone who has participated in this community for anything more than a handful of days can clearly see who is behind these unfounded accusations against our community.
To the original poster. I'm disgusted by your behaviour to hide behind a veneer of anonimity and create such a divisive and aggressive attack on the honour of Pax Gaming as a community and the independant guilds of Golgotha and Aeternum.
To the UNC, particularly Bluddwolf and Xeen, I thank you for your support in this thread. The ability to see sense is very rare on these forums lately and I thank you for being a voice of reason at least some of the time when you weren't having your own little bit of fun with the community.
To Nihimon. You are an underhanded rogue. You had plenty of time to address your concerns with our community before the landrush privately with us. We even spoke to you about it and no complaints were raised to us. The fact that you have backpedalled multiple times during this discussion has shown me that Andius is correct - you are no more out for the "heart and soul" of the community than any other member of these boards. You are clearly biased in your own goals and views and are blinded by zealous self righteousness. We resolved the issues you had with us and you IMMEDIATELY changed stance and began outright attacking us. This alone should bring the legitimacy of anything you say into question by the community at large.
To Kobold Cleaver. The wise fool archetype is incredibly applicable. You are quite possibly the most reputable and and respectable member of this community. I love you as a member of this community and I thank you for your silly, well reasoned, light hearted and intelligent contribution to this thread and community at large.
To notmyrealname, personally I believe you are some kind of master troll - either way some insane invocation of Poes law was chanted during your conception for anyone to be so ignorantly argumentative.
To Being, thank you for being a voice of reason for the most part in a thread filled with such misinformation and disgusting attempts to smear our organisation.
To Ryan Dancey, how this landrush has been handled has frankly been a joke. I'm going to give you the most resonable and fair criticism of the handling of the transition from LR1 to LR2 aswell as the handling of this thread in question. You have stated multiple times that you trust the community to make the decision on something in which they cannot be anything BUT biased shows me that in some respect you need to rethink some of the methods that you believe are the most effective way to guide a community. The phrase "Shit or get off the pot" is very appropriate here. Make a decision to be involved or not, but do not hang at the fringes dipping in when its inappropriate and expect to maintain the respect of the community.
To TSV, the absurdity that you still follow Nihimon's propaganda after the evidence of his inability to be objective and unbiased disgusts me. I consider the vast majority of you my personal enemy and that includes several members of your "Friendship Accord". The underhanded tactics you have employed to directly hurt us have upset me personally after I have strived internally in Pax to be as open and honest as possible. There are some exceptions, and you know who you are - the resonable and fair minded among you who are capable of seeing past the politics and vitriol have my eternal respect.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to address everyone that participated in this thread.
But I will say this, as an individual player I consider myself in an unlimited war with many of the players who negatively contributed to this thread. Trust my word when I say this - those who deliberately were out to hurt our organisation have had their names recorded by me and will be hunted when time the game comes around. To imagine that what you do, and who you associate yourself with on these forums will have NO repercussions when the game comes around is laughable.
Were I allowed, this post would be much more filled with vitriol and anger. The repeated attacks against members of our community have left me hurt and disgusted with the behaviour displayed in this thread.
This is the word of Paxman.
EDIT: Mis-wrote TSV as TEO.
Kakafika Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Pax Feydred wrote:How do you nay-sayers tell those paying customers they have no right to be in the landrush?There have been plenty of paying customers joining T7V this week that have no right to be in the landrush =)
They have every right to vote in the landrush. For T7V. Just like every Golgothan has a right to vote for Golgotha.
Ryan Dancey CEO, Goblinworks |
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Maybe I was not clear at some point.
Let me try to be as clear as I can be.
Goblinworks is not going to remove Golgatha from the Leaderboard.
We cannot assert a right to tell the community who is and is not a Guild for the purposes of the Land Rush because it is impossible to write a rule that will be definitive, and that cannot be easily gamed.
Golgatha, and Pax, have to decide how they want to approach the promotion, and live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will not include being removed by Goblinworks from the promotion.
We've been very clear what we expect of the winners of Phase I. The community will let Gogatha and Pax know to the extent they feel those expectations are being honored. You are your own referees. You collectively own this problem. You can engage with it, or ignore it, as you see fit.
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
TEO Alexander Damocles Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe I was not clear at some point.
Let me try to be as clear as I can be.
Goblinworks is not going to remove Golgatha from the Leaderboard.
We cannot assert a right to tell the community who is and is not a Guild for the purposes of the Land Rush because it is impossible to write a rule that will be definitive, and that cannot be easily gamed.
Golgatha, and Pax, have to decide how they want to approach the promotion, and live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will not include being removed by Goblinworks from the promotion.
We've been very clear what we expect of the winners of Phase I. The community will let Gogatha and Pax know to the extent they feel those expectations are being honored. You are your own referees. You collectively own this problem. You can engage with it, or ignore it, as you see fit.
Then under no circumstance, we will remove ourselves from the leader board. No amount of guilt trips, or bad feels from this community, or threats of in game action will move us from this course of action. This thread and line of thinking has been an utter waste of time, patience, and an undue amount of stress for nothing of value.
Gol PotatoMcWhiskey |
Ziggumesh of Katapesh Goblin Squad Member |
Xeen Goblin Squad Member |
Kakafika Goblin Squad Member |
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Setting the precedent that a "multi-guild gaming community" is not a Guild for the purposes of this Land Rush will have consequences, especially if any more "multi-guild gaming communities" show up. Every mega-guild is set up the same way Pax Gaming is. You're saying it's perfectly fine for them to have as many entries as they want.
My purpose was never to harm Golgotha. My entire purpose - and I have no doubt everyone will make up their own mind as to whether or not I'm being honest - was to try to encourage the players of Pathfinder Online to choose to foster a community where the requests of the developers are honored rather than ignored.
Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
TEO Alexander Damocles wrote:Excellent. Controversy closed.No, unfortunately we were not able to reach a consensus. I never really thought it had a chance, personally.
The controversy continues, festering in Morbis's heart =P
Jokes on you, Morbis lacks a heart, he just sort of exists, and we're not sure how.
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Gol PotatoMcWhiskey |
Setting the precedent that a "multi-guild gaming community" is not a Guild for the purposes of this Land Rush will have consequences, especially if any more "multi-guild gaming communities" show up. Every mega-guild is set up the same way Pax Gaming is. You're saying it's perfectly fine for them to have as many entries as they want.
My purpose was never to harm Golgotha. My entire purpose - and I have no doubt everyone will make up their own mind as to whether or not I'm being honest - was to try to encourage the players of Pathfinder Online to choose to foster a community where the requests of the developers are honored rather than ignored.
Unfortunately, no matter how hard you backpedal the downhill slope you have set yourself on will be your demise.
Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Setting the precedent that a "multi-guild gaming community" is not a Guild for the purposes of this Land Rush will have consequences, especially if any more "multi-guild gaming communities" show up. Every mega-guild is set up the same way Pax Gaming is. You're saying it's perfectly fine for them to have as many entries as they want.
My purpose was never to harm Golgotha. My entire purpose - and I have no doubt everyone will make up their own mind as to whether or not I'm being honest - was to try to encourage the players of Pathfinder Online to choose to foster a community where the requests of the developers are honored rather than ignored.
I do not care, not one bit.
Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Setting the precedent that a "multi-guild gaming community" is not a Guild for the purposes of this Land Rush will have consequences, especially if any more "multi-guild gaming communities" show up. Every mega-guild is set up the same way Pax Gaming is. You're saying it's perfectly fine for them to have as many entries as they want.
My purpose was never to harm Golgotha. My entire purpose - and I have no doubt everyone will make up their own mind as to whether or not I'm being honest - was to try to encourage the players of Pathfinder Online to choose to foster a community where the requests of the developers are honored rather than ignored.
At least we know where our "content" will be.
Kitsune Aou Goblin Squad Member |
The past few posts have actually enlightened me a bit - about to what degree Aeternum and Golgotha are actually separated. Thank you for clarifying this.
My opinion has been mostly shifted to the point where I'd say: Let Golgotha proceed.
I would still recommend a name change (maybe via request to GW) to remove the "Pax" part, and add some notes somewhere explaining that you are separate "guilds" outside this game.
[EDIT/ADD]: And it's good to see Ryan's post - kinda sums things up nicely.
Doggan Goblin Squad Member |
Maybe I was not clear at some point.
Let me try to be as clear as I can be.
Goblinworks is not going to remove Golgatha from the Leaderboard.
We cannot assert a right to tell the community who is and is not a Guild for the purposes of the Land Rush because it is impossible to write a rule that will be definitive, and that cannot be easily gamed.
Golgatha, and Pax, have to decide how they want to approach the promotion, and live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will not include being removed by Goblinworks from the promotion.
We've been very clear what we expect of the winners of Phase I. The community will let Gogatha and Pax know to the extent they feel those expectations are being honored. You are your own referees. You collectively own this problem. You can engage with it, or ignore it, as you see fit.
Thank you for clarifying. It was asked quite a few times, and we needed a concrete answer.
On another note, how long till we see the community manager? Having someone dedicated to interaction with the community might just reduce confusion like this in the future.
Gol Tigari Goblin Squad Member |
-Aet- Charlie Goblin Squad Member |
Aet Areks Kel'Goran Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Kitsune Aou wrote:But they are not separate guilds!
I would still recommend a name change (maybe via request to GW) to remove the "Pax" part, and add some notes somewhere explaining that you are separate "guilds" outside this game.
Keep telling yourself that. You are screaming to the wind.
Aet Kard Warstein Goblin Squad Member |
Ryan Dancey CEO, Goblinworks |
10 people marked this as a favorite. |
There should be no confusion. Waaaaaay back on page 2, I reposted the whole text of the email I sent to Pax's leadership at the very beginning of this issue.
I said:
I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard. I can't and won't put myself into the position of trying to untangle the various organizational structures of the 3rd parties that are going to be a part of our community. Down that path lies an endless predator/prey feedback loop that I can never hope to "win" and that will only serve to antagonize the people that we are most vested in making happy in this game. It's a losing proposition for everyone.
That has been our consistent position on this issue from Day One and it has never changed.
Bluddwolf Goblin Squad Member |
Setting the precedent that a "multi-guild gaming community" is not a Guild for the purposes of this Land Rush will have consequences, especially if any more "multi-guild gaming communities" show up. Every mega-guild is set up the same way Pax Gaming is. You're saying it's perfectly fine for them to have as many entries as they want.
My purpose was never to harm Golgotha. My entire purpose - and I have no doubt everyone will make up their own mind as to whether or not I'm being honest - was to try to encourage the players of Pathfinder Online to choose to foster a community where the requests of the developers are honored rather than ignored.
Common sense dictates, vague statements can not be honored and should always be ignored.
Bringslite of Fidelis Goblin Squad Member |
There should be no confusion. Waaaaaay back on page 2, I reposted the whole text of the email I sent to Pax's leadership at the very beginning of this issue.
I said:
RyanD wrote:I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard. I can't and won't put myself into the position of trying to untangle the various organizational structures of the 3rd parties that are going to be a part of our community. Down that path lies an endless predator/prey feedback loop that I can never hope to "win" and that will only serve to antagonize the people that we are most vested in making happy in this game. It's a losing proposition for everyone.That has been our consistent position on this issue from Day One and it has never changed.
My apologies Ryan. :(
Gol Malik. Goblin Squad Member |
Elladan Sindanarie wrote:Keep telling yourself that. You are screaming to the wind.Kitsune Aou wrote:But they are not separate guilds!
I would still recommend a name change (maybe via request to GW) to remove the "Pax" part, and add some notes somewhere explaining that you are separate "guilds" outside this game.
I tried screaming into the wind. Then I found that is better left to the Banshees.
Gol Tigari Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Paxman |
Morbis..let him keep screaming it. Hopefully he keeps it up until and during EE. Makes hunting the prey easier when they shout out their position. I'm sure hes earned a contract in my line of work, (if not then disregard, I will be busy with actual contracts )
The list can only get longer.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Ryan Dancey CEO, Goblinworks |
Gol Morbis Goblin Squad Member |
Gol PotatoMcWhiskey |
Bluddwolf wrote:Common sense dictates, vague statements can not be honored and should always be ignored.This is exactly what I'm trying to get the community to stand up to.
The ramblings of the delusional.
You've hurt the community more than helped it with your participation in this thread.
Xeen Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Cyneric Torrin Goblin Squad Member |
Gol Morbis wrote:What did you expect?I expect you to listen to and consider what it means that there are pages and pages of people calling for your removal. You're not acting in a vacuum.
So I'm suppose to jump at every boogeyman that says they are mad at me? Cool, I look forward to fighting them. Even if we lose our settlement, we will become murder hobos, none of your threats scare me, I find them enjoyable, please continue.
Gol PotatoMcWhiskey |
Gol Morbis wrote:What did you expect?I expect you to listen to and consider what it means that there are pages and pages of people calling for your removal. You're not acting in a vacuum.
Would you like me to count them? I'd be happy to do it for you if you're still unsure as to how many actually had an issue.
Xeen Goblin Squad Member |
Ryan Dancey wrote:Would you like me to count them? I'd be happy to do it for you if you're still unsure as to how many actually had an issue.Gol Morbis wrote:What did you expect?I expect you to listen to and consider what it means that there are pages and pages of people calling for your removal. You're not acting in a vacuum.
And GO!!!