Concerning Pax in the Land Rush


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Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I think the answer is that Pax is one Guild, and I would ask Golgotha to withdraw from the Land Rush Leaderboard. The presence of both Pax Aeternum and Pax Golgotha (even if they changed their names) both using the exact same website will be a strong signal to any other mega-Guilds that it is perfectly acceptable to have multiple entries in the Land Rush, or at least that it's something they need to do in order to avoid being at a disadvantage.

I know some folks didn't like the fact that I spoke up in this thread already, and they'll like it even less that I'm reviving it after everything seems to have settled down.

The reason I'm doing this is because of how sick I felt when I started thinking that TEO and T7V should do the same thing Pax was doing (voting for allies so the votes weren't "wasted"). I hated that I was tempted to do that, knowing it was wrong.

1. If you are naive enough to think that any "mega-guild" will have to follow our lead to achieve what you fear, you have lost already.

2. If you are naive enough to think that a "mega-guild" will be as transparent enough to get caught, especially after what we have endured, you have lost already. We are transparent because we choose to be. Not every will play by those rules.

3. If you are naive enough to think that people will care about how the way they spend their own money makes you feel, you have lost already.

We will abide by the rules as we understand them. When there is an issue of conflicting guidance, we will ask for guidance and adhere to it once given.

Quit while you are ahead Nihimon... otherwise you'll just make yourself look sillier than you already have.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I can understand why some folks who aren't familiar with the history might think that Pax is Pax is Pax, but I would hope that I've earned some small amount of trust from the community as a bit of PFO Historian, and I can personally attest to the history of the groups involved in Golgotha and that they had a very strong, independent presence prior to hooking up with Pax, and I have no doubt they wouldn't have joined Pax if they'd known it would disqualify them from getting a Settlement.
Nihimon wrote:
I don't think this can be appropriately resolved any other way than Golgotha disbanding their Land Rush Guild and putting their votes to Pax Aeternum.

con·tra·dic·tion [kon-truh-dik-shuhn]

1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

That trust has been effectively squandered for any with half a brain to recognize how ill spent it has been. You have consistently revealed your true nature: jealousy, pettiness, controlling, pompous, arrogant, fearful and a toxic influence on these forums.

Run and flag this post... the image and truth of it will be burnt into the minds of those that had the opportunity to see it, no matter how briefly.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Aet Areks Kel'Goran wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

I think the answer is that Pax is one Guild, and I would ask Golgotha to withdraw from the Land Rush Leaderboard. The presence of both Pax Aeternum and Pax Golgotha (even if they changed their names) both using the exact same website will be a strong signal to any other mega-Guilds that it is perfectly acceptable to have multiple entries in the Land Rush, or at least that it's something they need to do in order to avoid being at a disadvantage.

I know some folks didn't like the fact that I spoke up in this thread already, and they'll like it even less that I'm reviving it after everything seems to have settled down.

The reason I'm doing this is because of how sick I felt when I started thinking that TEO and T7V should do the same thing Pax was doing (voting for allies so the votes weren't "wasted"). I hated that I was tempted to do that, knowing it was wrong.

1. If you are naive enough to think that any "mega-guild" will have to follow our lead to achieve what you fear, you have lost already.

2. If you are naive enough to think that a "mega-guild" will be as transparent enough to get caught, especially after what we have endured, you have lost already. We are transparent because we choose to be. Not every will play by those rules.

3. If you are naive enough to think that people will care about how the way they spend their own money makes you feel, you have lost already.

We will abide by the rules as we understand them. When there is an issue of conflicting guidance, we will ask for guidance and adhere to it once given.

Quit while you are ahead Nihimon... otherwise you'll just make yourself look sillier than you already have.

If you think that deliberately misunderstanding the rules and protesting that they are unclear will have a good outcome for you, you haven't lost... yet. Rules enforcement will be arbitrary and capricious, and will include things like your overall history, including instances where you though you got off clean because not enough stuck to you.

And looking through the public parts of Pax's forum, I have one question: Why is Charlie George's name purple (apparently indicating purple security level, or "guild master") but Morbis' name red (apparently indicating red security level, or "Outer Council Member")?

Goblin Squad Member

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Doggan wrote:
All of that being said: Nihimon, I ask you to remove yourself from this discussion. You are not adding anything worthwhile. Your view is slanted by your position in your own guild, and anything else you say will be seen as a weak attempt to sidetrack opposition.

Wow, seriously? By that rationale Pax should have no say whatsoever because their view is more slanted than anyone's, since this involves a Pax settlement.

What WOULD be an acceptable way for someone to have a differing opinion from you, if Nihimon's presentation was so out of bounds for you that you call him a liar and tell him to go away?

I'm really curious - if Ryan had never said this, and Nihimon posted it just now for the first time as his own words:

RyanD wrote:
If you look at this situation from the outside, which is what I am doing, and what everyone else who comes to this game will do, it's very hard to say that Golgatha is a separate entity from Pax.

...would the comment be met with the same vitriol that the next handful of posts have demonstrated? Are his arguments so strong that they can only be countered by calling him names?

Do Ryan's posts not substantially agree with the conclusion that Golgotha and Pax are not likely to be viewed as separate entities from an outside perspective?

The vitriol here is absolutely ridiculous, especially Bluddwolf's complete flame post. That's a prime example of toxicity if ever I've seen one.

Goblin Squad Member

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Guys, what are you doing?

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
And looking through the public parts of Pax's forum, I have one question: Why is Charlie George's name purple (apparently indicating purple security level, or "guild master") but Morbis' name red (apparently indicating red security level, or "Outer Council Member")?

Let me ask you this... Does Morbis rule Golgotha?

Find that answer and then look at the public forum again.

Goblin Squad Member

C'mon guys...

Goblin Squad Member

@Decius
Morbis is a red level officer. I am the purple level officer for Golgotha. Hence the Lord Regent title.

I know not what you attempted to prove there. Are you purposefully flawed in your interpretations? Or is it general unscertainty?

Goblin Squad Member

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<lights the Pesh pipe and offers it to anyone who will take it>

Goblin Squad Member

This about sums it up.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't understand your link... It's just the home page of some forums.

Goblin Squad Member

That is a really good game Darcnes.

Goblin Squad Member

I am the current leader of Aeternum, Deacon is the current leader of Golgotha.

Red security level is the color of members of the voting council of each entity

Teal is the security level of each officer in each entity

Tags are also associated to moderate board access.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


If you think that deliberately misunderstanding the rules and protesting that they are unclear will have a good outcome for you, you haven't lost... yet. Rules enforcement will be arbitrary and capricious, and will include things like your overall history, including instances where you though you got off clean because not enough stuck to you.

I'm sorry that you refuse to accept that we based our actions on the quote of a developer.... actually the Lead Developer.

Adding adjectives to its existence such as "throwaway quote" is opinion. You do not get to determine our understanding of the rules. The majority does not get to determine our understanding of the rules. That is why we asked for clarification.

Also, we had public internal debate about this topic, but obviously that was not included in the OP as it was never actually about what was good for the community but more about how to handicap a potential rival.

Keep waving "arbitrary and capricious" around like it applies to the Land Rush when it does not. If it does, please quote me where that is explicitly stated... and no I will not quote you where it is not.

We acted on our understanding. Objection was raised. Clarification was given. We complied. Now certain folks are contradicting themselves.

So please, don't ever speak to me about honor. Your intentions are clear. Your continued pursuit will ensure that the community as a whole sees the true nature of those who are grasping for something where there is nothing.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Papaver wrote:
Guys, what are you doing?

Ask Nihimon, he trolled a settled matter. I suspected, even if Golgotha removed handful of questionable votes, that would not be enough for Nihimon. He wants to use the Devs to destroy on the forums what he can't in game.

TEO had kept itself mostly out of this. I suggest you check with Lifedragn, before you get your company sucked into it.


Notmyrealname wrote:
What happened to Pax could happen to you or anyone, if you think it can't then it is even more likely and you won't even realize what is going on. Just my opinion but the whole issue was about perception being treated as reality.

...could it even happen to The Chaotic Lawfuls?

I swear, we aren't part of Pax.

plz join we need to win landrush and collect $200

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
TEO Papaver wrote:
Guys, what are you doing?

Ask Nihimon, he trolled a settled matter. I suspected, even if Golgotha removed handful of questionable votes, that would not be enough for Nihimon. He wants to use the Devs to destroy on the forums what he can't in game.

TEO had kept itself mostly out of this. I suggest you check with Lifedragn, before you get your company sucked into it.

People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and with Xeen on your side, your house is definitely made of glass. Nihimon asks tough questions that provoke tough answers. But, in doing so, he neither hits below the belt nor attacks another's character. Can you say the same?

Furthermore, why you insist on responding to his conversations with PAX, is beyond me. But I think we can both agree that Nihimon has been pretty great for this community and you and your friends deliberately attacking his integrity is a disservice. We all know PAX can answer their own questions without you continuously downing Nihimon. Really though, it looks desperate.


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I'm going to keep playing Devil's Advocate and say that Nihimon is getting very extreme in his accusations. I can understand why Pax would be upset. Why Bluddwolf would be, though? I can understand it, but I don't think it's the reason it should be.

EDIT: And they are accusations. I can't call them "questions", tough or otherwise, and keep a straight face. My mouth keeps curving down in a frown.

Goblin Squad Member

The desperate part is that on behalf of anyone who would attack Golgotha's legitimacy.

Ask yourself who has the most to gain from Golgotha leaving the landrush? Once that is answered it becomes clear why this thread is still in continuation.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
TEO Papaver wrote:
Guys, what are you doing?

Ask Nihimon, he trolled a settled matter. I suspected, even if Golgotha removed handful of questionable votes, that would not be enough for Nihimon. He wants to use the Devs to destroy on the forums what he can't in game.

TEO had kept itself mostly out of this. I suggest you check with Lifedragn, before you get your company sucked into it.

People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and with Xeen on your side, your house is definitely made of glass. Nihimon asks tough questions that provoke tough answers. But, in doing so, he neither hits below the belt nor attacks another's character. Can you say the same?

Furthermore, why you insist on responding to his conversations with PAX, is beyond me. But I think we can both agree that Nihimon has been pretty great for this community and you and your friends deliberately attacking his integrity is a disservice. We all know PAX can answer their own questions without you continuously downing Nihimon. Really though, it looks desperate.

Nihimons attack looks desperate. He did not pose tough questions, he is making demands. He wants the only potential threat to the BloodRose Accord taken down a notch.

Being passive aggressive is not great for the community. It is a volatile as being straight forward about it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:
He wants the only potential threat to the BloodRose Accord taken down a notch.

He does not speak for the Roseblood Accord in this matter. Not at all.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Nihimon asks tough questions that provoke tough answers. But, in doing so, he neither hits below the belt nor attacks another's character.

I would pull up proof positive that is false but that post along with all responses to it, was deleted by the moderators.

With his accusations he hurls around about all his opponents be trolls, pro-griefer, or "oathbreakers" I would say Nihimon is probably just as prone to target his opponent's character as any of the worst offenders on these boards. I'm not excluding myself from those offenders but then I've never made such a claim.


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I highly doubt that Nihimon is actually doing this just to benefit his organization. I likewise highly doubt Pax is the den of thieves his posts make it seem he views it as. Indeed, I even doubt that their big slipup that started this whole mess up again was intentional.

Frankly, there's a little thing called "Confirmation Bias". Nihimon mistrusts Pax, and this will lead him to believe worse and worse things about them. Pax wanted the extra votes, and this had a hand in the conclusion that only they reached about the way the landrush worked.

There's no duplicity. Both sides believed they were acting in good faith. Both sides were (or are), simply, wrong. In my view, obviously.

The sooner people stop casting aspersions on people's integrity, the sooner something of meaning can happen here. So far, the only good thing to come out of this thread was smurf tanks.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I can understand why some folks who aren't familiar with the history might think that Pax is Pax is Pax, but I would hope that I've earned some small amount of trust from the community as a bit of PFO Historian, and I can personally attest to the history of the groups involved in Golgotha and that they had a very strong, independent presence prior to hooking up with Pax, and I have no doubt they wouldn't have joined Pax if they'd known it would disqualify them from getting a Settlement.
Nihimon wrote:
I don't think this can be appropriately resolved any other way than Golgotha disbanding their Land Rush Guild and putting their votes to Pax Aeternum.
con·tra·dic·tion [kon-truh-dik-shuhn]

I wouldn't be surprised if others had changed their mind after Pax's handling of the other, seperate, resolved issue.

I chose to focus on that issue because it was quite obvious what should be done. I mean, 2 of 3 peers were following restrictive rules, and the other was not following the rule, for whatever reason (thereby gaining an advantage).

1. In a friendly game, the one group that is playing by different rules would typically adjust their behavior, because even if they are technically right, they want be good sports.

2. In a friendly game, when one group recognizes that they are taking actions that are negatively affecting other peers (and nobody else is taking those actions), that group adjusts their behavior in the interest of fairness.

Neither of these points making any difference to them makes me wonder what does motivate the leadership (by that, I mean whoever was involved in deciding to wait for developers to tell them they were wrong. Most Paxians are undoubtedly good people).

I would be ashamed if I had to call Dad every time my brothers and I disagreed while at play. Dad didn't like it too much, either. We learned to work things out amongst ourselves.

I thought I would feel better about Pax when the other issue was resolved; I thought it would be really easy to put this behind us. Unfortunately, they found a way to make that not the case, for me at least. I mean, they basically stuck to their guns until they were taken away by force; not exactly the noble ending I expected from that discussion.

I can understand why Nihimon and others feel that way. It isn't unjustified: Pax and Ryan Dancey have had private conversations (now made public in this thread) about it. Pax, though now attempting to change the perception, has in the past created an aura of 'Pax is Pax' around the groups. Let's try to keep this about the ideas under discussion, rather than the people that are discussing them.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

The desperate part is that on behalf of anyone who would attack Golgotha's legitimacy.

Ask yourself who has the most to gain from Golgotha leaving the landrush? Once that is answered it becomes clear why this thread is still in continuation.

The 31st landrush group.

Goblin Squad Member

Fidelis Shane Gifford wrote:
I don't understand your link... It's just the home page of some forums.

That, is because I apparently did not copy the url of the link I meant to use hahaha


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Pfft. Darcnes, you doofus. Here, I'll paste a link to the Imagine Song from Baloney the Dinosaur. Let's all just relax.


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OH NO THAT WAS NOT THE RIGHT LINK AT ALL

Goblin Squad Member

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Kakafika wrote:
I can understand why Nihimon and others feel that way. It isn't unjustified: Pax and Ryan Dancey have had private conversations (now made public in this thread) about it. Pax, though now attempting to change the perception, has in the past created an aura of 'Pax is Pax' around the groups. Let's try to keep this about the ideas under discussion, rather than the people that are discussing them.

I can understand why Nihimon feels the way he feels too. I also have some issues with how Pax backpedalled in this issue, before doing the right thing when CharlieGeorge held his hand up and said that Pax should "own" the mistake. I further agree that Pax made a rod for their own back with their Pax forum prefixes - and that this whole issue is essentially of Pax's own making (let's not forget that bit).

But...

Can we please let it go now. Contrary to what Nihimon believes, I for one (and I am sure I am not alone in T7V) agree that Golgotha has every right to be in the landrush. They were a separate entity before ever joining Pax, and never would have joined in the way they had they known how LR2 was to be run - we all got caught out by that one. The overall issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of most of the community, and I applaud Pax for taking the steps they have taken.

What purpose would denying Golgotha a settlement serve? And why should we think that the 10 people (say) who come in 31st in the land rush are any more deserving of a settlement than those many more who voted - legitimately - for Golgotha? The argument that you are disenfranchising those 10 people is ridiculous, because it applies equally well to Golgothans. In fact it is worse for them; the "31sters" have an opportunity to find a settlement above them that matches their needs and alignment requirements well, whereas Golgothans do not really have the same in Callambea. And who is going to "take in" such a large group - I suspect nobody.

So, this is me, publicly and on record stating that I do not agree with Nihimon in this matter, nor do I believe that I am the only one in T7V, Phaeros or Roseblood to have this opinion. For me, this thread should have died 500 posts back (ok, hyperbole, but you get my drift). Can we please let it die now?

@Bluddwolf and Andius: Contrary to what you may believe, Nihimon is not motivated by fear, but by principles. You may want to look up what they are in the encyclopaedia.

Goblin Squad Member

I know what principles are. It would dictate things such as if someone builds an organization from the ground up, spends hundreds of both hours and dollars keeping it alive, and indeed does all the earns them the right to place wherever they want to first, then expresses extremely strong objections to placing in one specific area, you might respect the wishes of the person who earned you that right by picking an area other than the one spot they raised extremely strong objections to.

When you instead take a vote mainly voted on people who have done nothing more than join your group and sit back while that one individual did a bare minimum of 50% of all of the work by himself, that person may rightfully get VERY pissed. Especially when he feels that in doing so you have made all his efforts over the past two years count for nothing.

I don't believe principled individuals would do such a thing. As Bluddwolf said, he will steal your gold but not something you've poured your heart and soul into. Some thieves have standards.

I don't believe any honest individual can say that TEO would exist, have reached the success it has, or have stayed alive the past two years without the incredible ammount of effort I poured into it. I find it very hard to believe you can't see any wrongdoings in your actions when you recognize that.

Or maybe your values really are so socialist you don't believe people are entitled to the fruits of their labors however I will state TEO was not founded as a democracy, was never intended to be run as such, and I did not believe I was turning it into such when I turned over the reigns. I put forth the love and labor that I did into TEO believing I was establishing a group where effort and merits counted for more than the tyranny of the majority.

Goblin Squad Member

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My fellow PFO community members,

The Empire of Xeilias will provide a response to this repeated line of attack once the leadership of all its member settlements have had time to get caught up on the issue (most aren't awake at 3:41 a.m.). Though the passion of a few individual members might find them posting before we have had a chance to internally discuss such a repeated line of public attacks, and decide upon an Imperial response, we make every attempt as one nation (not one guild) to operate in this fashion. This is a courtesy we give all our settlement members, for too easily can the potentially damaging comments of one be misconstrued as the opinion of the whole.

Hobs

Imperial Ambassador of the Xeilian Empire

Goblin Squad Member

I would be more satisfied to see this issue dropped than to see a response to be honest. Such a thing will simply fan the flames higher.

Goblin Squad Member

My two cents, for what it's worth, is that Pax has always seemed to me to be one guild. In the same way that the Goon Squad is one guild and any other meta-guild is one guild within the scope of a given game. They may have multiple branches, but they're all a part of the same gaming community, the same guild.

They have a partition between their segments just as they would if they had a presence in each of the factions of a game like The Elder Scrolls Online, but the segments are still Pax. The segments share a joint discussion area on the Pax website so they can all communicate with each other.

Pax Dominus and Pax Imperius are two branches of Pax in SW:TOR and are even, by definition, at war with each other but they're still both Pax.

I don't really have a problem with Golgotha being in the game. But in answer to Ryan's question of whether Pax is perceived as one guild or several, personally I have always seen them as a single guild much like Goon Squad, CotP, vVv, or any of the other meta-guilds.

That's just my opinion; I speak only for myself and my thoughts are not reflective of TEO, The Roseblood Accord, the United States of America, or any other entity of which I may be a part.

Goblin Squad Member

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<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Wow, seriously? By that rationale Pax should have no say whatsoever because their view is more slanted than anyone's, since this involves a Pax settlement.

I met Nihimon's absurdity with equal absurdity.

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
What WOULD be an acceptable way for someone to have a differing opinion from you, if Nihimon's presentation was so out of bounds for you that you call him a liar and tell him to go away?

Yes, I did say he wasn't being honest. I really don't think he is being honest. Especially because this post is fairly contradictory to what he has previously stated, as Bluddwolf properly quoted.

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:

I'm really curious - if Ryan had never said this, and Nihimon posted it just now for the first time as his own words:

RyanD wrote:
If you look at this situation from the outside, which is what I am doing, and what everyone else who comes to this game will do, it's very hard to say that Golgatha is a separate entity from Pax.
...would the comment be met with the same vitriol that the next handful of posts have demonstrated? Are his arguments so strong that they can only be countered by calling him names?

Oh stop. I didn't spend my entire post calling him names. I said he was being dishonest, and petty. Again, due to contradictory statements and personal belief based on past actions. His arguments were weak, not strong.

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Do Ryan's posts not substantially agree with the conclusion that Golgotha and Pax are not likely to be viewed as separate entities from an outside perspective?

Ryan is simply stating his opinion. Which is not the end all, be all opinion of the world. The fact Aet and Gol are both still in the landrush speaks volumes. To the point that this discussion should be long over.

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
The vitriol here is absolutely ridiculous, especially Bluddwolf's complete flame post. That's a prime example of toxicity if ever I've seen one.

You're defending some of that vitriol you dislike so much, friend.

Grand Lodge

EoX Hobs wrote:

My fellow PFO community members,

The Empire of Xeilias will provide a response to this repeated line of attack once the leadership of all its member settlements have had time to get caught up on the issue (most aren't awake at 3:41 a.m.). Though the passion of a few individual members might find them posting before we have had a chance to internally discuss such a repeated line of public attacks, and decide upon an Imperial response, we make every attempt as one nation (not one guild) to operate in this fashion. This is a courtesy we give all our settlement members, for too easily can the potentially damaging comments of one be misconstrued as the opinion of the whole.

Hobs

Imperial Ambassador of the Xeilian Empire

SO! You're declaring "war" on Nihimon for speaking his mind before the game even begins because he caught Pax looking foolish? I think you should read the River Freedoms again my friend, and advise your Guild to do the same.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

@Decius

Morbis is a red level officer. I am the purple level officer for Golgotha. Hence the Lord Regent title.

I know not what you attempted to prove there. Are you purposefully flawed in your interpretations? Or is it general unscertainty?

That was my genuine confusion regarding Golgotha's leadership structure. Question answered, and I withdraw any implication that might have been inferred.

Goblin Squad Member

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KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:
EoX Hobs wrote:

My fellow PFO community members,

The Empire of Xeilias will provide a response to this repeated line of attack once the leadership of all its member settlements have had time to get caught up on the issue (most aren't awake at 3:41 a.m.). Though the passion of a few individual members might find them posting before we have had a chance to internally discuss such a repeated line of public attacks, and decide upon an Imperial response, we make every attempt as one nation (not one guild) to operate in this fashion. This is a courtesy we give all our settlement members, for too easily can the potentially damaging comments of one be misconstrued as the opinion of the whole.

Hobs

Imperial Ambassador of the Xeilian Empire

SO! You're declaring "war" on Nihimon for speaking his mind before the game even begins because he caught Pax looking foolish? I think you should read the River Freedoms again my friend, and advise your Guild to do the same.

*Reads the response from Hobs*

*Reads it again*
*Reads it again*

Is this war dec coded or something because I don't see Hobs say anything about that.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Aet Areks Kel'Goran wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:


If you think that deliberately misunderstanding the rules and protesting that they are unclear will have a good outcome for you, you haven't lost... yet. Rules enforcement will be arbitrary and capricious, and will include things like your overall history, including instances where you though you got off clean because not enough stuck to you.

I'm sorry that you refuse to accept that we based our actions on the quote of a developer.... actually the Lead Developer.

Adding adjectives to its existence such as "throwaway quote" is opinion. You do not get to determine our understanding of the rules. The majority does not get to determine our understanding of the rules. That is why we asked for clarification.

Also, we had public internal debate about this topic, but obviously that was not included in the OP as it was never actually about what was good for the community but more about how to handicap a potential rival.

Keep waving "arbitrary and capricious" around like it applies to the Land Rush when it does not. If it does, please quote me where that is explicitly stated... and no I will not quote you where it is not.

We acted on our understanding. Objection was raised. Clarification was given. We complied. Now certain folks are contradicting themselves.

So please, don't ever speak to me about honor. Your intentions are clear. Your continued pursuit will ensure that the community as a whole sees the true nature of those who are grasping for something where there is nothing.

Your understanding of the rules does not determine what the rules are.

Gruffling wrote:
There still seems to be a concern that the description of the guidelines actually ARE the guidelines. To me, (as I read both the lines, and whats between them) it seems the easier path to assume that this environment won't live in a vacuum, and within any given populace, the types of serious transgressions described would either A) work themselves out organically via the player base via exclusion, or B) elevate the concerns to the Mods where they follow their internal guidelines to decide on a proper course of action. When GW tells us they won't be explicit about those processes, that doesn't mean we can interpret the process via a short list describing it.

A 1964 US Supreme Court case raised the potential for the Court to create a strict definition of hardcore pornography. Justice Potter Stewart stated "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."

That's what's really going on here: no list of rules Goblinworks could make would successfully differentiate the exact set of "everything that's a problem" from the exact set of "everything that's not a problem." Instead, you get a list of examples, and a note that things will be examined on a case-by-case basis. Yes, this requires that anyone who wishes to play the game have some level of trust in the Goblinworks admins, and no, there really isn't a better solution.

Ultimately, you have two choices: Trust that Goblinworks will do a job that you'll find satisfactory, or don't. In the latter case, I recommend you don't play the game.

You're going to point out that the context of that was rules regarding acceptable chat behavior, and I'm going to point out that that principle literally cannot be applied only within well-defined limits.

Goblin Squad Member

ArchAnjel wrote:

My two cents, for what it's worth, is that Pax has always seemed to me to be one guild. In the same way that the Goon Squad is one guild and any other meta-guild is one guild within the scope of a given game. They may have multiple branches, but they're all a part of the same gaming community, the same guild.

Pax Gaming is a multi game gaming community. Not all of its members play the same games. I was for a time a member of Pax's STO division. Not before I created UNC, and not after I stopped playing STO. At no time was UNC ever a part of Pax, as part of its player nation plans. There is the key pint in this issue.

The proposed game mechanics of the company - settlement - nation system creates the "big town - big umbrella". This was actively encouraged by Ryan Dancey and it is being mechanically encouraged.

There are advantages to forming kingdoms / nations, and I have no doubts that the members of the Roseblood Accord will not take advantage of those themselves. The only difference is, Pax Aeternum and Golgotha have been up front about forming a nation.

Nations must be made up of settlements, made up of different charter companies, all of which must be within one-step in alignment of the nation' core. Again, they must be separate entities.

Alignment funneling is the second problem. I have two characters (main + DT). If I want to play two dramatically different characters, they have to be attached to different settlements.

Not everyone in a large gaming group are going to want to play multiple characters of the same alignment.

So what is being proposed here by Nihimon is a punishment to large gaming communities. He not only demands that they only have one settlement, but individual player characters are being told they have to chose between having a settlement or not having one. It certainly limits their ability to vote for a settlement that matches their character concept.

The problem here was not misinterpretation of what the Devs had said. The problem was inherent in the vagueness of what was written. Once that vagueness was lifted, Golgotha moved to remedy the issue.

The attacks on Hobs, on Golgotha, Pax and even on the remedy they initiated have been toxic. If these kinds of attacks came from UNC, they might be expected, but we don't claim and have never claimed to be the defenders of "The Soul of the Community" and the role models for positive game play.

Grand Lodge

Sorry I was being facetious. I can just imagine what an "Imperial Response" might be. I'm keeping in mind they are an Evil organization as well, even if the players themselves aren't their RP motivations DO exist on some level.

I understand completely the need to coordinate the organizations opinion, and more making a "Headline News - Tabloid Newspaper" line gag. Drafting, and redrafting, and redrafting. Yup.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I don't think the Empire is especially evil ? from what I understand, it's more of a lawful nation, without a particularly evil politic ?

Goblin Squad Member

KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Sorry I was being facetious. I can just imagine what an "Imperial Response" might be. I'm keeping in mind they are an Evil organization as well, even if the players themselves aren't their RP motivations DO exist on some level.

I understand completely the need to coordinate the organizations opinion, and more making a "Headline News - Tabloid Newspaper" line gag. Drafting, and redrafting, and redrafting. Yup.

Actually, that kind of disturbs me. After all of this, people STILL don't understand something about us.

Aeternum is Lawful Neutral.
Fidelis is Lawful Good.
Golgotha is Lawful Evil.

The umbrella for all of these is the Empire of Xeilias. A lawful axis based organization. So an Imperial Response if anything should be viewed as a "lawful" organization response, not evil.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
I don't think the Empire is especially evil ? from what I understand, it's more of a lawful nation, without a particularly evil politic ?

Merci beau coup monsieur!

Grand Lodge

I understand the distinction but I think we can all agree the general topic of discussion is the "viable existence" of the settlement that is Lawful Evil.

I don't fail to understand your divisions, and in fact think it's quite a fantastic model to follow.


Frankly, it's pretty clear to me that Pax is no more a unified force than the Roseblood Accord—or, using my favorite comparison, this Paizo subforum. When non-Paizonians start joining the game in OE, they will agree with me, complaining that all the Paizonian companies seem to follow each others' cues where the newcomers are concerned.

Why were the Pax folk voting for each other? Probably for the same reason I was initially tempted to vote for settlements I didn't plan to join, like Forgeholm or Last Embrace: For varied reasons, I want those settlements in the game.

Does that make me part of some secret dwarvish conspiracy? No, it just means OOC has some bearing on IC behavior. Shocker, right?

At this point, I don't know why Nihimon is so determined to pursue this incredibly divisive matter. Everyone had accepted that Pax was innocent until he showed up and started responding to old posts. Now, between his supporters and Bluddwolf's, this is turning into a borderline flamewar.

Goblin Squad Member

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DeciusBrutus wrote:
Quotes n stuff

We found that Goblinworks did do a good job of explaining themselves. Was it perfect? No. We acted on our interpretation of the rules.

We had no problem. Others had a problem with our interpretation.

Others had a problem with the way Goblinworks defined things. Goblinworks didn't have an issue. Aeternum and Golgotha didn't have an issue. Someone else did. The following is just from the first page.

Ravenlute wrote:
Gotta disagree with the OP here. They should be viewed as two separate organizations in the Pax alliance.
Ixiolander wrote:
TEO actually discussed this at some length as well and while some felt it went against the spirit of the rules established, most felt it fell into a sorta grey area due to Golgatha joining Pax after it had already establishing itself prior. If Ryan and the rest of GW weren't against it or saying anything, we figured should be fine and not our place to say otherwise in any case.
Nihimon wrote:
I can personally attest to the history of the groups involved in Golgotha and that they had a very strong, independent presence prior to hooking up with Pax, and I have no doubt they wouldn't have joined Pax if they'd known it would disqualify them from getting a Settlement.
Xeen wrote:

Golgotha is a separate entity from Aeternum

Lhan wrote:
As the newly appointed ambassador to the Empire of Xelias from T7V, I'd just like to echo what Nihimon has said. While it may be confusing to outsiders, Callambea and Golgotha are separate entities - and always have been. 'Nuff said.
TEO Cheatle wrote:

I will Echo what ArchAnjel said

If Golgatha is getting the settlement on their own merits outside of the other two organizations within their umbrella, then that is fine, since they previously were separate.

T7V Avari wrote:
Golgotha is clean in my book.
TEO ArchAnjel wrote:
It seems to me like they're gaming the system, operating within the technical rules in a way that goes against the spirit of the land rush. I don't know who the original poster is, but I'm not afraid to put up my name in support of her concerns.
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:

I think for me in the end, if it's OK with the devs it's OK with me. They're the arbiters of how they want the process to work and I'm OK with however they view it.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
The leaders of Aeternum and Golgatha are responsible for knowing their own structure, knowing the rules and guidelines set forth regarding multiple elements of the same guild, and determining how to best encourage their members to follow the rules.
KotC Lorhayden wrote:
Pax to me just seems like the first nation. Nothing wrong with it. Roseblood will probably be the second. Just my two cents (backs up)

That seems like a fair consensus to me. At the very least... we were operating within the technical rules. That's just from the first page.

We didn't just say, "Oh there it is! We are good." and walk away. There was still concern. If there is still concern after there is a consensus that technically we are within the rules, then we need clarification.

We were not wrong for asking for that clarification. Once it was given, we abided by it.

Your allies stand to gain from Golgotha either being punished or removed entirely from the Land Rush. Initially, it did not appear as though that was the intent.

Now, after clarification given by Goblinworks and our compliance to that clarification, there is still an issue.

Again, we didn't have an issue in the first place. We don't have an issue now. We are in compliance with the rules.

Goblin Squad Member

It is not in the spirit of the rules to force a company to join a settlement that was founded by a metaguild they belong to,and bar them from joining any settlement they want. Does every Pax member have to join a Pax company , no. Does every Pax company have to join the AET settlement ,no.

So if Golgotha is taken off the board , the company can just go join another settlement they choose and their numbers will give them control, so leave them where they are and save us all the next eruption when it becomes clear that removing them does not remove them at all, it just changes the name of the settlement they will lead. Are we going to tell Fidelis they can go where they want but you are not allowed to be leaders in that settlement?

There can be no rule that says all metaguild members must join a single settlement. The amount of control a metaguild has in more than one settlement is trying to be controlled , but it cant be. Who founds and names a settlement doesn't matter , the internal politics can change and new leadership will take over. Another metaguild dominating the board is hypothetical and how could it even happen ,we are all KS2 ,they aren't.

The land rush should not suffer from fear of what could happen, what did happen was not that bad, but then it is all opinion.

Remove Golgotha and they will just move to a new settlement and in time it will be theirs . They could have chosen to leave the board and done that and looked pretty good but it all comes out the same in the end. What happens during EE, are we going to try to control the internal politics of every settlement?

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
I don't think that the stench of fear in this thread can be adequately washed off, until T7V and its members step out of this RESOLVED ISSUE.

First, I want to make very clear that I speak from my own conscience. I'm not conveying T7V's position, or the Roseblood Accord's. In fact, it is very likely that a large number of people in those groups vehemently disagree with what I'm saying.

But if I hadn't spoken out here, when all of this had supposedly already been "resolved", then Pax would still be instructing their members to vote for Pax Golgotha regardless of which "division" they planned to play with.

For the purpose of this Land Rush, Pax is a single Guild. That's very clear. That's the reason Rawn, the leader of Pax was the one who came to T7V's TeamSpeak to talk about their decision to run Pax Golgotha as a second entry.

The reason I'm holding them accountable for this is because I see what Ryan's warning us about. Goblinworks can't get into conflict with Pax about this, that's why Ryan practically begged Rawn to seriously consider the ramifications of running Golgotha as a second entry before he did so. Can you imagine how toxic the game would be if all the hate and intimidation, all the veiled and not-so-veiled insectsinsults and threats were directed at the folks who work at Goblinworks instead of just another member of the community? I have no doubt that all that hate and condemnation servers as a powerful warning to anyone else in the community that might feel the same way that they shouldn't speak up, or they'll face the same treatment.

I wish I'd seen all this more clearly in the beginning. Perhaps Rawn would have had second thoughts if he'd faced strong opposition at that time. But I let my personal feelings get in the way. I kept re-reading the OP looking for clues as to who wrote it, and I realized that the OP is 100% truth. I wish I'd had the clarity, the experience and insight, to make that case myself, but I didn't.

The last issue I challenged Pax on, where they eventually admitted they were wrong and took actions to correct it, was right there in the OP, but they utterly ignored it, and they attacked me viciously for daring to hold them accountable. I don't gain any advantage (other than continued hope that this community won't degenerate into every guild taking every advantage they can get unless there's a specific rule against it, which then puts them into constant conflict with Goblinworks instead) by doing this. In fact, I probably will pay a very heavy price for it. I probably won't ever know how many folks actually support what I'm doing, but I know anyone who speaks up and says so has got to be as insane as I am for bringing down that much hate on themselves. But I would ask you - especially Members of Pax - to look at the OP objectively, and think about Ryan's warnings about the likely effects of "breaking this taboo".

The truth is that this issue is also right there in the OP, and it's clear as day to any objective third party.

Pax is one Guild. Golgotha should withdraw from the Land Rush.

Goblin Squad Member

Kakafika wrote:
Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

The desperate part is that on behalf of anyone who would attack Golgotha's legitimacy.

Ask yourself who has the most to gain from Golgotha leaving the landrush? Once that is answered it becomes clear why this thread is still in continuation.

The 31st landrush group.

Just a thought here... The groups with less then 10 members, and even the groups with less then 20 members, will not own their settlements once siege warfare has begun.

If they do not own a settlement at all, it is more likely that they will stay in the game longer. If they are removed from a settlement they are more likely to quit.

Goblin Squad Member

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I very strongly disagree with you, Nihimon. Golgotha was a separate guild. They joined Pax to have a group to play games with while they waited for PFO to launch. They are a separate division in a wider gaming community. I am very disappointed in the road you have chosen to travel, as it dishonors you and the groups you represent by implication.

I fully support Golgotha's right to a settlement in the second Land Rush.

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