Magehunter — Fighter or Slayer?


Advice

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Please try to refrain from the "fighters suck" comments, those of you who are tempted. This is a thematic affair. :P

For a while, now, I've been toying with the idea of a purely martial magekiller. This is a lady who's obsessed with killing mages to the point that it gets a little creepy.

The character needs to be good at stealth and such, but she also needs to be decent at the actual killing. I want this to be a character who may as well have Favored Enemy: Arcane Casters as a class feature.

She doesn't have to be as good as a mage. She just has to have the build to realistically stand a chance. Obviously, she'll be resorting to guile a lot of the time.

So, how about it? I'd really like to get Spellbreaker and Disruptive, but those feats require I be a fighter. And fighters don't give me much in the way of skills. This puts me in the awkward position of having to consider a multiclass with something like assassin.

Alternatively, I could just give up on that, be a slayer, and let the mages have their defensive casting fun.

Thoughts?


Why is Barbarian not in the running? They are pretty much born mage slayers. Superstition, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder... take Urban Barbarian and you could still Spellcraft to know what they are throwing at you if you wanted. 4 + Int skills per level isn't bad either.


Barbarian. Superstitious -> Witch Hunter -> Spell Sunder -> Eater of Magic


Mainly? I just don't envision this character as a berserker.


I am keeping barbarian in mind, but thematically, it's definitely Plan B.

B for Barbarian.

Get it?


Berseker? Nah you're just calmly hyper focused to the exclusion of all else so many rounds per day.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Slayer or Ranger would both be good options. Ranger would even have a decent packet of abilities for helping avoid notice by enemy spellcasters.


Could dip inquisitor for the blackpowder inquisition+3 levels of trench fighter, and then the rest urban barb


Slayer is pretty baller.

Also remember at higher levels Favored Target also makes you better at sneaking around your Target...

And Bleeding Attack is potentially useful since Continuous Damage harms casters somewhat.


Chaoseffect, if I do go with barbarian, that's the reasoning I'll go with. However, I prefer that this character remain "reliable" (no once per day abilities).

Really, it seems the main options are slayer, barbarian, ranger or fighter. I'm still pretty attracted to fighter, mainly for the benefit of the Disruptive/Spellbreaker feats—I can't find any other options that show a character is specifically trained to face magic-users.

I'll admit that it's not the best reason to pass up superior options, though.


Also note that through Rage Powers a Barbarian can get Disruptive and Spellbreaker.

Just sayin'. =)

But if you want Fighter, I suggest going Brawler (the archetype). No Escape/Menacing Presence is pretty nasty, especially if you snag Step-Up and stuff too.


Also, I was thinking Catch Off-Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery might come in handy, especially for the assassin or slayer. After all, quite a few wizards go around unarmed, and that sneak attack is pretty nice.


Blackpowderrrrrr

do eeeeet


If possible, this character will have no spells at all—arcane or divine. The reason for her obsession with arcane casters is how much harder they are to fight, and if she has spells, that kinda makes it less plausible. ;D


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chaoseffect wrote:
Berseker? Nah you're just calmly hyper focused to the exclusion of all else so many rounds per day.

This.

There are many ways to flavor rage: raving berserker is just one of them.

That said, if you were torn between the two you presented, an unbreakable fighter might not be a terrible idea.

Liberty's Edge

I'd suggest a monk. I've always had good luck with monks as mage-killers.


3rd party allowed
Warlord into Mage Hunter PrC
Straight from Paizo
Arcane Duelist?
Inquisitor


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Also, I was thinking Catch Off-Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery might come in handy, especially for the assassin or slayer. After all, quite a few wizards go around unarmed, and that sneak attack is pretty nice.

I recommend against this. First caster with stoneskin will wreak your day since you won't be able to get past Dr.

Best mage killers are other mages imo, like magi, but since you said martial might I recommend Samurai? High crit weapons, challenge damage, and an ability to retry saves(ronin), 4 base skills, etc makes it pretty tempting. However, keep in mind you only have one good save so buff those stats a such as you can.


The way I see it, if you don't have magic, you'll have to hit a mage when they least expect it. Slayers are thematically fit for the job because they hunt their quarries systematically, then go for the stealthy ambush. Reliable performance might work on a battlefield, but it doesn't suit search-and-destroy tactics. You move in, hit the target as hard as possible, then withdraw to recover and plan your next move.

You also have to think beyond immediate combat statistics. Sure, a barbarian might do better in that first fight, but what's to keep the rich spellcasters from locating him and taking him out en masse? How did the fighter or barbarian locate the mages in the first place? A slayer can hide in their favored terrains without leaving tracks; what's more is that spellcasters and civilized areas go hand-in-hand. This puts a slayer with favored terrain (Urban), Slayer Camouflage and evasion in a much better situation than a fighter.

Ideally, I think the best option would be a slayer and barbarian; the slayer functions as the eyes and ears while the barbarian acts as the strategically applied fist. Admittedly, the barbarian functions better in the fight, but you can't have a fight without the hunt - and you wouldn't want the fight to be fair.


Darth Grall wrote:
I recommend against this. First caster with stoneskin will wreak your day since you won't be able to get past Dr.

Which is why I'm not basing a build around it. It'll just be a little nasty surprise for any mage who doesn't think to have a dagger out. Specialized, but so's the whole build. :)


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:
I recommend against this. First caster with stoneskin will wreak your day since you won't be able to get past Dr.
Which is why I'm not basing a build around it. It'll just be a little nasty surprise for any mage who doesn't think to have a dagger out. Specialized, but so's the whole build. :)

How does whether or not the caster has a weapon in hand impact your ability to hit them with a chair for pitiful damage?


Darth Grall wrote:

Best mage killers are other mages imo

The best mage killer in my opinion is a little more nuanced than that. It's the fighter1/diviner1/EK10/AA4 who can deliver an anti magic shell without save or SR onto his target and trivialize the most powerful adversaries in the game.

Scarab Sages

Completely Martial mage hunters sans barbarian:

Tetori is an awesome mage killer. Grapple wrecks spellcasting, and Inescapable Grasp/Form Lock means they can't dimension door/freedom of movement/polymorph away.

Brawler Fighter Archetype does a great job as well, with great control options, solid damage, and access to Spellbreaker and Disruptive.

Crossbowman Fighter 7/ Rogue x. Ready vs spellcasting and hit any attempt to cast with a vital strike ranged sneak attack that has a dispel magic attached to the SA damage.


I've become a huge fan of Magus mage-killers.

But between the given two, Fighter has access to the Disruptive line of feats and has room for extra goodies like Step-up. It has my vote.

Slayer is... well, good at slaying just about anything anyway.


Wizard


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I noticed that you did not mention any preferences for race. If I might make a suggestion: half elf might work really well with either of the two classes you are considering.

The reason behind this suggestion is because both classes lack good will saves. To combat this, the half-elf's dual minded alternate racial trait (replaces the skill focus) is a fantastic choice. A +2 to will saves goes a long way towards tipping the scales in your favor.

After that +2, you can take a variety of small investments that further help to bring your will up. Iron will is an obvious choice, since another +2 is fantastic. A well picked trait for another +1 (or maybe something like birthmark, which gives a +2 against charms and compulsions, which are some of the most dangerous for you) also helps. And to top it off, it would not hurt too much in a point buy to drop CHA to 8 so you can have WIS 12. Combined with dualminded, your will save will be on par with an uninvested spellcaster. And since some of these choices must be done at level 1...well, your will save early on will only be second to a cleric's.

And these choices also leave room to make it even harder to control your mind. With iron will as one of your feats, you could then go on to take improved iron will, which means a reroll on a failed will save once per day. And half-elves have a racial feat, exile's path, which does the same thing, except only on enchantments. With the bonuses you will be throwing around, these feats mean that it will be exceedingly hard for spellcasters to try to toy with you.


Hm...with a half-elf, I could grab Skill Focus (Stealth), and justify Brawler. I could dip into Assassin a couple times, grabbing some Sneak Attack benefits. At 11th level, with Disruptive, casters would be dealing with -9 penalties on Cast Defensively checks. I really, really like that. Pity Improvised Weapons aren't treated as Close Weapons, of course.

Right now, I'm thinking either that or Slayer would suit me.

I kind of like leaving Will Saves as this character's biggest weakness, but no harm in padding things a bit so my party doesn't hate me. ;)


Hey, related question: If I got Step Up, would I be able to take the AoO, then step up after them anyways?

PRD Brawler wrote:
No Escape (Ex): At 9th level, taking a 5-foot step out of the area of a brawler's menacing stance or moving out of the area of a brawler's menacing stance with a withdraw action provokes an attack of opportunity from the brawler. This ability replaces weapon training 3 and 4.

Silver Crusade

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I have toyed with this idea myself, How about a grapple monk?


Ah, the no escape ability. When you throw in stand still, it allows you to tie down enemies so they are at your mercy. Particularly useful against casters who can't even hope to get past your CMB (although the large scaling bonuses you get at level 13 make it possible even to take on some of the larger, fiercer monsters with that move too).

Also note: I would definitely take stand still at level 9. Sure, brawlers get it free from a level 13 ability...but getting it early doesn't really cost you anything. That ability lets you just pick a combat feat instead. That ability is there simply to put a neon sign saying "COMBINE THESE THINGS!". So just take the extra feat and the huge bonuses to the stand still maneuver later on instead.


You could multiclass the fighter and slayer. Delays getting Spell Breaker but you could do it focusing more on fighter in the early levels and more Slayer in the later levels. You could Disruptive at 8, and Spell Breaker at 15. You'd be 10/5 Fighter Slayer.


If you want to be anti-magic then I would suggest Dwarf over Half-Elf. Hardy gives you a +2 versus all spells/SLA/poison, can be improved to +4 with one feat, Steel Soul, and allows as a Dwarf you qualify for the trait Glory of the Old, which is another +1 versus spells/SLAs/poison. On top of that Con and Wis are never bad stat adjustments... especially as I usually find myself buying a 14 in both anyway. A 12 in each which are then bumped to 14 would save you 6 points, enough to justify you over spending a bit on your primary ability score.


chaoseffect wrote:
If you want to be anti-magic then I would suggest Dwarf over Half-Elf. Hardy gives you a +2 versus all spells/SLA/poison, can be improved to +4 with one feat, Steel Soul, and allows as a Dwarf you qualify for the trait Glory of the Old, which is another +1 versus spells/SLAs/poison. On top of that Con and Wis are never bad stat adjustments... especially as I usually find myself buying a 14 in both anyway. A 12 in each which are then bumped to 14 would save you 6 points, enough to justify you over spending a bit on your primary ability score.

...and if the caster summons a creature with a supernatural ability, which would be unaffected by all your bonuses? That starts to be a 'thing' with summon monster around level 9, which is also where people start questioning whether you can keep up with the casters.

I generally just grab the good 'true' will save because I use this trick for martial characters. So they usually have good fort saves and poor will saves. The reflex save depends on what class you are taking (fighter has a poor one, rangers and slayers have good ones)...but out of all the saves, reflex gets the reputations (fairly or unfairly) of being the easiest to deal with.

Reflex usually prevents damage and battlefield control, fortitude escapes status effects/poisons/ability score damage/etc., and will saves against automatic debuffs, domination, and severe character breaking things like getting your soul stolen.


Summon Monster is the magehunter's favorite spell, actually. It takes a 1 Round Action, making it crazy easy to disrupt. ;)

Dwarf is a good idea, though they don't get that nice Skill Focus I need to keep my Stealth competitive. I do envision this character being pretty socially awkward, though, so there's that.


I'd go barbarian or monk. Saving throws are a mage hunter's best friends. Speed is also nice. And grappling.


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Inquisitors work really well against casters. Between the spellkiller inquisition and Silence, you can really shut them down. Plus, good will saves. You might be able to do some really heavy reflavoring to eliminate the appearance of spellcasting, depending on the game.

Or, as others have suggested, go monk. My wizard always hated monks because they have all good saves and good touch AC. Get a dwarf or something with SR (do monks get SR naturally?) and go to wild.

Now that I think of it, adding in speed and grappling, a well-built monk could really wreck casters.


Lastoth wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:

Best mage killers are other mages imo

The best mage killer in my opinion is a little more nuanced than that. It's the fighter1/diviner1/EK10/AA4 who can deliver an anti magic shell without save or SR onto his target and trivialize the most powerful adversaries in the game.

Cant they just move out of the AMF and take a standart action?

Liberty's Edge

Half Orc Fighter(Lore Warden)
Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait, coupled with Fate's Favored for +2 to all saves.

2 extra skill points per level for Int based skills, all int based skills are class skills. Make use of your knowledges.

Loss of heavy and medium armor, but you are fighting wizards so that is not an issue anyway.

Grab a trait for either stealth or perception as a class skill. Survival is a class skill anyway for tracking. Or use a feat, since Fighters do get a bunch of them, for Skill Focus to get the extra points.

Use maneuvers since Lore Wardens get those crazy bonuses to CMB.


As far as races go... Dwarf is the best race for mageslayer. Base +2 saves against spells and SLAs... Hello? And take Steel Soul for a +4 bonus against ALL spells and SLAs, yes please.

Spellbreaker archetype for the inquisitor with the Spellkiller inquisition screams what you want, Cleaver. Not a "martial" class like you're looking, but it's a great option.


Tin Foil Yamakah wrote:
I have toyed with this idea myself, How about a grapple monk?

I made, with a buddy of mine, a pair of grapple-monks and absolutely wrecked a PFS scenario (I forget the name of it, but it was a very stealthy one). Anyway, we played level 1s and were effectively The Rock and Hulk Hogan. I have never seen so the GM as disappointed as this, or the other players upset by the ease which we wrestled the boss in a position to be flanked and sneak attacked. (I think they were happy we didn't get bowled over, but it was a bit less climactic than expected).

Yeah, a monk can do come goofy things. I still lean toward the Barbarian for this build, but I do like the idea of using cavalier/samurai. I don't think the cavalier will be effective, though.

Liberty's Edge

I'd go Slayer over Fighter basically due to the availability of Evasion. Well, and it being a generally better Class.

Disruptive and Spellbreaker are cool, but don't seem worth giving up 4 skill points a level, Sneak Attack, a good Reflex Save, Evasion, and all the other advantages. Barbarian is likely better, but Slayer's probably more on-theme.

Dwarf's also an excellent race for this concept.

Scarab Sages

A human Lore Warden will give you plenty of skills while still allowing access to the feats you're looking for.

13 Int + favored class bonus to skills = 7 skill points/level.

Liberty's Edge

Artanthos wrote:

A human Lore Warden will give you plenty of skills while still allowing access to the feats you're looking for.

13 Int + favored class bonus to skills = 7 skill points/level.

Lore Warden is definitely the way to go if going Fighter.


You can do this really really effectively with Horizon Walker. You just need to abuse Terrain Dominance for Urban and Underground, since that is where 95% of all casters live (sure there are some druids who don't live in buildings or caves, but almost everyone else does.) You can get there from Ranger or Rogue or some multiclass combo, no spellcasting or even SLAs if you don't want them.


Honestly, I'm a bit torn between Lore Warden and Brawler for fighter archetypes. Each of them does half of what I want. XD

Silver Crusade

Inquisitor with sanctified slayer archetype and take spellkiller inquisition.

Silver Crusade

this is back up agian? o.0


Have you considered an Arcane Bloodline Primalist/Untouchable Rager Bloodrager? It has no spellcasting and is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. Even counts as a Fighter for Disruptive and Spellbreaker, I'm playing a mage slayer myself and pretty much the ONLY reason I'm not going Untouchable Rager with him is because I wanted him to have spells, otherwise this is exactly what I myself would be playing.


The problem with dealing with spellcasters is, well, spells, and there's no conventional way to deal with that without wielding the same. My class of choice are Eldritch Knights.

spellcasters are PITA theorycrafters, but in reality it just takes a surprise round and a fair shot at a Polymorph and Admonishing Ray if you want them alive.

In fact, any 'mage hunter' should probably invest in methods and ways to bring spellcasters' primary stats down as close to 10 as possible. Bestow Curse is a pretty easy way to bring a spellcaster to heel with a 6 point permanent stat drop out of the gate. Good advice for any DM having to contend with out of control Wizards without having to wait for them to do something cosmically stupid (wish bending)

Silver Crusade

Zourin wrote:

The problem with dealing with spellcasters is, well, spells, and there's no conventional way to deal with that without wielding the same. My class of choice are Eldritch Knights.

rogue/slayer/hunter, all with max stealth, invisibility ring, couple other fancy magical items,

the best way to fight a mage, is to get the drop on them.

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