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Doesn't actually give 4+ Skill Points and SKR actually said the lore warden gave too much at one point.
Probably a bit off topic.
Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.
Doesn't actually give 4+ Skill Points and SKR actually said the lore warden gave too much at one point.
Probably a bit off topic.
Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.
The fact that the 2 skill points are limited in choice makes it so that those 2 extra skill points are not actually equal to 4+Int Skill points per level.
Design Manager
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That said, you can still make a perfectly serviceable, survivable character with the Rogue as it currently exists (ditto Fighter). People tend to exaggerate how "bad" they are.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say you can't successfully play one, but the issue is a matter of comparison.
Imagine that every class was given 100 points that could be spent on their build, to buy things like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, 1/2 casting, 3/4 casting, full casting, etc.
The Monk actually has like 120 points worth of stuff, but he pulled it from like 20 different buckets, so it doesn't all piece together well. Fortunately, the monk has some bad-ass feats and great archetypes, so you can start trading out those wonky pieces that don't click well with the others and end up with something that's pretty hardcore.
The Rogue has exactly 100 points, but he bought a bunch of stuff that sounded really good at the time but won't always work out so well. It's like he's Batman, but all of his toys are battery powered and he ran out of cash before he actually got around to buying extra batteries. Skills are good at low levels but start trailing off quickly in effectiveness as he levels up, and more and more people get various tricks that make his hard-earned abilities kind of redundant. He's also got to work harder to do the things he wants to do. The Rogue using Sneak Attack is like a 12 year old building these elaborate structures designed to drop a bowling ball on a burglar's head when everyone else just defends their homes with a shotgun.
The Fighter only got 75 points. He rolled up to buy his stuff and some shady merchant decided to charge him double for all of his feats because of their "potential". All of the Fighter's abilities are "balanced" against their "potential". Armor Training requires you to keep pumping resources into your DEX to actually scale. Bravery is a small bonus that only clicks in against one specific effect. Weapon Training, and many Fighter-specific feats, lock you down into a narrow choice for options. How many times have you seen a sweet piece of loot shw up in a monster's horde and the Fighter goes "Sorry, not a polearm/bow/heavy blade/etc. go ahead and stick it in the sell pile"? Because I've seen it happen a lot, and I almost never see it happen with Rangers, Barbaraians, Cavaliers, etc.
Lay a Fighter side-by-side with a Ranger sometime. The Fighters 5 extra feats, and the mutability of them, is weighted at a ratio where a single feat is considered as valuable as 1/2 casting, or Hide in Plain Sight, or Evasion. His Bravery ability is given the same weight as another class getting an extra good save, or Uncanny Dodge.
It's not that the Fighter's bad, it's that he's incomplete. They forgot to give him as much stuff as they gave everybody else. He's still good at doing one thing, but it's something that everyone else is good at too, and when that thing isn't the best option for the situation, he doesn't have an alternative, nor is he finding a lot of opportunities to pitch in elsewhere.
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The fact that the 2 skill points are limited in choice makes it so that those 2 extra skill points are not actually equal to 4+Int Skill points per level.
Doesn't actually give 4+ Skill Points and SKR actually said the lore warden gave too much at one point.
Probably a bit off topic.
Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.
You are right.
What would a fighter ever use knowledge skills for? I don't know why anybody ever bothers to invest in them.
The fact that the 2 skill points are limited in choice makes it so that those 2 extra skill points are not actually equal to 4+Int Skill points per level.
Doesn't actually give 4+ Skill Points and SKR actually said the lore warden gave too much at one point.
Probably a bit off topic.
Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.You are right.
What would a fighter ever use knowledge skills for? I don't know why anybody ever bothers to invest in them.
Point.
Head.
Anyways, the class looks like it gets 4+, but its 2+ and 2 you have to put into knowledge. Doesn't matter if the knowledge can be useful, what matters is you don't actually have the freedom of choice. Its also a single archetype that happens to trade out a good number of class features, and doesn't speak for the class as a whole.
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In fairness, he just said it was too powerful an archetype because it gained vastly more than it lost. This is objectively true.Doesn't actually give 4+ Skill Points and SKR actually said the lore warden gave too much at one point.
Probably a bit off topic.
Eh, the other side of the argument is fighters... suck.
Well that was blunt.
Yes, but he did not say he was going to errata it.
Yes, but he did not say he was going to errata it.
It was heavily implied that if the book was ever reprinted, the Lore Warden would probably be flat out omitted or heavily rebalanced.
My mistake, but still a very powerful defensive combat option.
If only casters could have something like that...
It's not that the Fighter's bad, it's that he's incomplete. They forgot to give him as much stuff as they gave everybody else. He's still good at doing one thing, but it's something that everyone else is good at too, and when that thing isn't the best option for the situation, he doesn't have an alternative, nor is he finding a lot of opportunities to pitch in elsewhere.I agree here. One of the best description of hte issue I have seen.
A lot of this is build-related, though. If you feel like you have to have 20 STR, 16 DEX, and 16 CON to be a "decent" fighter, then it's a little disingenuous to claim the class is at fault that you have no skills or non-combat abilities.
The class doesn't "force" you to be good at multiple disciplines/roles, so players choose to focus in completely on only combat.
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A lot of this is build-related, though. If you feel like you have to have 20 STR, 16 DEX, and 16 CON to be a "decent" fighter, then it's a little disingenuous to claim the class is at fault that you have no skills or non-combat abilities.
The class doesn't "force" you to be good at multiple disciplines/roles, so players choose to focus in completely on only combat.
No, what forces you to be combat-focused and not do much else isn't your stat array, its the fact the class doesn't have features beyond it.
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No, what forces you to be combat-focused and not do much else isn't your stat array, its the fact the class doesn't have features beyond it.
The class is as versatile outside combat as you chose to make it.
The problem is, most of the people complaining build for maximum combat effectiveness and invest in nothing else.
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No, it is as versatile as the resources you have available to dedicate to it. Fighters pretty much only have feats as their resource. Every class gets them. The fighter may get a few more but feats have fairly limited impact, certainly far less than actual class features or spells.
Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.
Class features may make some classes better suited to specific tasks, but just because there might be somebody better suited for a specific task does not mean you cannot be proficient. If the fighter was the best at everything, that would be it's own set of issues.
Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.
UMD is a very different beast from spellcasting, if that's what your referring to. UMD cost money and can't be changed on the day to day without access to a store, and spellcasters themselves have spellcasting +UMD.
If throwing your resources all into UMD is actually better than depending on your own resources, that might be a sign of a problem.
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Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.UMD is a very different beast from spellcasting, if that's what your referring to. UMD cost money and can't be changed on the day to day without access to a store, and spellcasters themselves have spellcasting +UMD.
If throwing your resources all into UMD is actually better than depending on your own resources, that might be a sign of a problem.
Rogues: "I have resources?"
Guys potions are a thing too.
IMHO potions of airwalk are better than boots of flying.
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Design Manager
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Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.UMD is a very different beast from spellcasting, if that's what your referring to. UMD cost money and can't be changed on the day to day without access to a store, and spellcasters themselves have spellcasting +UMD.
If throwing your resources all into UMD is actually better than depending on your own resources, that might be a sign of a problem.
Not to mention all of the other issues tied into being UMD reliant-
Cash flow - buying up scrolls and potions and wands for every scenario is going to be taxing, and some abilities, like almost everyone that involves an immediate action, just can't be replicated outside of wondrous items.
It requires you haveing access to a caster in the first place - magic items don't exist without magic users. The Fighter actually has to be able to get access to magic items that some spellcaster has already prepared if he wants to use them.
Encumbrance and carrying capacity- the Wizard carries a greater Bag of Holdings worth of solutions in his head pretty much all the time by a certain level. The Fighter is limited to what he can wear or stow, and a solution that you can't pull out of your pack in time is not a solution.
Being able to borrow someone else's solution is not them saving as having a solution yourself - ever notice how silly it is that the solution to "Fighter's have problems other classes don't have" is to start trying to find ways for him borrow from those other classes with things like UMD, consumables, and magic items? I'm not saying I think all Fighters should be able to fly by throwing their swords around like Thor hitching a ride on Mjolnir, but a potion of air walk obtained from the local church is not the same as the Fighter having a solution to flying enemies. He just bought a temporary solution from the local cleric.
At the end of the day though, the "Fighter can just UMD" argument only further underscores the "Fighter is a drain on party resources and doesn't contribute anything himself" argument.
He's incomplete. He lacks a critical ability to do anything other than fight, and choosing to do that suboptimally to try and be just competent enough to get by somewhere else doesn't mean that there isn't a problem there. Every other class can be good at what they do and do other things as well. I brought up in another thread how in many ways even the Rogue is superior to the Fighter. I'd certainly be far more likely to have a Rogue BBEG than a Fighter BBEG (though truthfully I'd probably have a multi-classed Fighter/Rogue which shakes out to a decent character), since the Rogue gets built abilities to interact with magic, with things like dispelling sneak attacks, a large pool of skill points to support UMD and other functions, enhanced defenses vs. magic like evasion, etc.
No one's saying you can't play a Fighter. That's not the discussion. What they're saying is that the Fighter isn't balanced to the other classes in the game as far as core functionality goes, and he doesn't live up to the description provided for him right in the CRB.
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Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.UMD is a very different beast from spellcasting, if that's what your referring to. UMD cost money and can't be changed on the day to day without access to a store, and spellcasters themselves have spellcasting +UMD.
If throwing your resources all into UMD is actually better than depending on your own resources, that might be a sign of a problem.
And yet, potions are scrolls are used as justification for how casters can be prepared for every situation.
The fighter does not need a potion or scroll to solve every problem. He only needs them to add alternative solutions when more mundane methods are less practical. First and second level scrolls, specifically, are dirt cheap once you have a few levels.
And yet, potions are scrolls are used as justification for how casters can be prepared for every situation.
No, its used as a "Hey I didn't prepare that today but I have this!", more of a fill in the blank or to help back up the more obscure spells you don't want to carry everyday or take up slots that might want a scaling DC/CL. They also tend to use them better because you know, no need to roll for your own class list.
The fighter does not need a potion or scroll to solve every problem. He only needs them to add alternative solutions when more mundane methods are less practical.
Right, but even with mundane methods fighters aren't that great because they lack skill points or class features that help him out of combat and feats don't really make up for a lack of that.
First and second level scroll, specifically, are dirt cheap once you have a few levels.
Right! And you should use them. But everyone can. everyone. Fighter isn't better at it, he's actually isn't the best choice for it either, because he has so few resources on him to devote that its taking away from that. Which is actually the biggest point, that this is something everyone can do, and it doesn't help say "Hey fighter, your okay!" because it isn't about the fighter at all. In fact, its an argument for why he sucks, if he's trying to fill himself on something outside of his class instead of actually trying to use his own class features to fix problems.
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Commoners also have access to magic. Just like fighters.
Come on. The idea that because a class can buy magic items like every other class, they have "access to magic", in any meaningful sense is ridiculous. Especially when UMD isn't a class skill (yes, I know they can take a trait) and the class doesn't have any other real use for Charisma (Yes, social skills are nice, but neither the main class role or features depend on it) and doesn't have skill points to burn (yes, you can be human and boost int and take FC bonus, just like any other class and still be behind).
And Marthkus: Airwalk is 4th level. No potions.
1. Caster's only win if you deny every other class access to materials and resources that are listed as being available.
2. Every single class in the game has UMD as a class skill, should they so choose.
3. Every single class in the game has a use for charisma other than UMD. Social encounters are built into all published content.
4. I can pull 5 - 7 skill points on a 12 intelligence fighter. More than enough skill points. Waving your hand in the air and dismissing it does not make it go away. Those skill points are there is you choose to take them. It is not a balance issue if you choose otherwise.
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Every single class in the game has access to magic, if they so chose.UMD is a very different beast from spellcasting, if that's what your referring to. UMD cost money and can't be changed on the day to day without access to a store, and spellcasters themselves have spellcasting +UMD.
If throwing your resources all into UMD is actually better than depending on your own resources, that might be a sign of a problem.
And yet, potions are scrolls are used as justification for how casters can be prepared for every situation.
The fighter does not need a potion or scroll to solve every problem. He only needs them to add alternative solutions when more mundane methods are less practical. First and second level scrolls, specifically, are dirt cheap once you have a few levels.
That's because mages can make their own. They don't have to go to the store, they can purchase their own.
By that logic, commoners are perfectly fine since they can buy scrolls. All they need is scrolls of Divine Power and Righteous Might and they can solve their whole attacking problem.
Consumables are not a solution, they're a band aid when the Fighter is missing a limb.
See, for example, every full caster in the game from about level 6 onwards.Dies to a well prepared martial built to kill mages.
Right so, that's not the full quote, so I put that below. Its just selecting a small unrelated to the rest of the bit quote to say "I can build a fighter to smash one thing and it should totally work!", which, tbh, should really be how it works, but in that case your devoting resources to killing one thing, and how many is that going to take? You want potions, which totally aren't in class, to catch up and fly, you want a way to get past his illusions, maybe keep him from casting or five foot stepping, teleporting away(which fighter isn't getting in class, again...), and if he summons you want to smash that too, and you want to reach him and he may have friends. There are a lot of things a caster can do to say "Nope!" or even get away instead of being turned into paste. How much can you give before your actually taking away from yourself and your own argument that they can do more out of combat?
The problem arises of course when those features allow one class to be better suited to a whole host of different tasks. See, for example, every full caster in the game from about level 6 onwards.
If you are proficient at one or two things and another class covers those and a bunch of others as well why should any group take you along on horrifically dangerous life threatening missions over the other character.
So... want to try and instead of responding to one small unrelated bit and instead respond to "well other classes can do what a fighter can do and do other things too, so why should I take a fighter?" Or something akin to that, I'm not andreww.
Consumables are not a solution, they're a band aid when the Fighter is missing a limb.Consumables are a tool all characters are assumed to carry and utilize.
You're not asking for balance: it already exists. You're asking to be better than.
What is the balance? That fighters get less than but can make up for it with consumables? Consumables aren't a part of the fighter, they're something everyone else can use, carry, and utilize. They aren't a fighter class feature, and they aren't an argument for why the fighter is balanced.
I thought this issue stemmed directly from the backwards compatibility with 3.5. Wasnt the reasoning that, if Pathfinder martials were given a big boost in power level then it would hamper that goal? (That a pathfinder rogue would then outshine a 3.5 rogue and conversely that a 3.5 rogue wouldnt be able to be ported over to a pathfinder campaign without being rebuilt).
My understanding was that the creation of Pathfinder included some tweaks around the edges (like a tidying up of combat maneuvers and various attempts to make sticking with your base class more attractive) but at it's core was built by taking 3.5's underlying design "warts and all" - even though it included some choices Jason would rather not have included. (Such as casters having more scope of action than martials).
The "3.5 thrives" slogan was a huge deal back then, even though backwards compatibility is much less of an issue now. I think if they now abandoned that and rebuilt those classes known to be substantially weaker they would run the risk of creating a whole new slew of problems (amongst beginners and people who play "core book only", for example).
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See, for example, every full caster in the game from about level 6 onwards.Dies to a well prepared martial built to kill mages.Right so, that's not the full quote, so I put that below. Its just selecting a small unrelated to the rest of the bit quote to say "I can build a fighter to smash one thing and it should totally work!", which, tbh, should really be how it works, but in that case your devoting resources to killing one thing, and how many is that going to take? You want potions, which totally aren't in class, to catch up and fly, you want a way to get past his illusions, maybe keep him from casting or five foot stepping, teleporting away(which fighter isn't getting in class, again...), and if he summons you want to smash that too, and you want to reach him and he may have friends. There are a lot of things a caster can do to say "Nope!" or even get away instead of being turned into paste. How much can you give before your actually taking away from yourself and your own argument that they can do more out of combat?
The problem arises of course when those features allow one class to be better suited to a whole host of different tasks. See, for example, every full caster in the game from about level 6 onwards.
If you are proficient at one or two things and another class covers those and a bunch of others as well why should any group take you along on horrifically dangerous life threatening missions over the other character.
Fighters do have things they are the best at.
A fighter built for pure damage beats the barbarian hands down. A fighter built for defense is all but untouchable. A fighter built for battlefield control can lock down a half dozen opponents without every having to worry about DC's, SR, or immunities.
Consumables are not a solution, they're a band aid when the Fighter is missing a limb.Consumables are a tool all characters are assumed to carry and utilize.
You're not asking for balance: it already exists. You're asking to be better than.
Using a resource everyone has access to as a metric to balance features that are class specific is pointless.
Access to UMD doesn't make fighters balanced. It means they have access to things everyone does. It isn't even an argument.
Your whole statement is a zero sum gain.
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Consumables are not a solution, they're a band aid when the Fighter is missing a limb.Consumables are a tool all characters are assumed to carry and utilize.
You're not asking for balance: it already exists. You're asking to be better than.
Consumables by WBL take up 10-20% of a character's wealth. For a fighter to keep up, they'd be pushing that up to about 30-50%, or asking a mage to buff them, as opposed to just about anyone else, who doesn't require another class to make them contribute.
Fighters don't contribute in the same way all other full BAB characters do, not even close. All fighters do is hit things, which everything in the game does. And I'd love to see your ideal fighter on a 15 or 20 point buy.
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Consumables are not a solution, they're a band aid when the Fighter is missing a limb.Consumables are a tool all characters are assumed to carry and utilize.
You're not asking for balance: it already exists. You're asking to be better than.
You obviously don't have the slightest clue what balance means.
This is simple.
Casters get spells.
Fighters do not.
Your argument is "Fighters can use items to get an inferior version of spells, therefore they are balanced".
The counter-argument is "Casters can also get those inferior version of spells, but cheaper and may use them with much less investment."
You then splutter and counter with "Well yeah but Fighters are balanced though".
That is not a valid argument. There was no logical progression of events there. You have compared the numbers 2 and 1 and determined that they are equal when you add +1 to both, because 1 is now equal to 2 (while ignoring that 3 is still now higher than 2).
I could be wrong, but I think that the best way to be a fighter is to be an eldritch knight, that is if umd is the metric for success that presses the fighters balance buttons. :)
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Casters get spells.
Fighters do not.
If you want to give up your BAB, hit points, proficiencies, feats, and class abilities in exchange for spells you are free to do so.
You can even continue to call yourself a fighter, for roleplay purposes.
If you want to take control of the battlefield with a sword while being all but unhittable, and maintain that ability all day, you probably want to keep those options.