So, Heliocentrism.


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Quite recently I was shocked when I discovered that a good portion of the population of a couple of first world countries strongly believe in geocentrism. In retrospective I suppose I was too naive, human silliness should have always be remembered. Of course, a big part of this movement have religious origins, they do not believe it because a a rational thought but because of faith.

Still, after the initial shock, what truly let me thinking was the amount of misinformation about the Ptolemaic system and modern conceptions of astronomy. It was like a question of some sort of faith for many. "Heliocentrism is true because scientist, my school teacher and my school books say so" could basically summarize the point of view of many of otherwise literate people.

For example, when confronted with the following cite from Einstein and Infeld

"The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either Coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different Coordinate system."

The most common answer was like "of course that seeing from the earth the sun is revolving, but when seeing from the point of view of the empty (static) space it is the earth that is revolving around the sun". Which is just wrong (according to relativity).

Of course, the fine details of a scientific theory are, generally speaking, far away from the layman. I, for example, do know some general facts about evolution theory, but I have no Idea of the modern trending of the theory, and I am completely ignorant about the statistical calculations to prove/disprove the evolution theory, to give just one example.

So, I just wanted to say/rant

WTF, geocentrism?

and to point out that important ideas of modern cosmology (althout almost 100 years old) have not been widespread to popular media.

END OF COMMUNICATION.


Heliocentrism is now viewed as correct largely because of Newtonian mechanics. While all massive bodies in motion revolve around each other, the sun is the most massive body in the solar system (by far) so the center of gravity of all of the revolutionary paths of each planet is actually in the sun's chronosphere. This amounts to the planets revolving around the sun from a practical standpoint.


I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.


She's a round!


Mr. Doodlebug Anklebiter,

Even with a flat earth, the sun has more mass. A flat earth makes the math more complicated, but that can still be approximated as a point, just like the assumed spheres that scientists presume the earth and sun to be are assumed to be points under Newtonian mechanics. Such assumptions are the beauty of science, until of course the assumptions are proven wrong, or are of insufficient accuracy to encompass the reality. In this case though, the assumptions are regrettably accurate enough to make prognostications, even if the earth is flat, which is a thesis, in and of itself, of surpassing beauty, but of unfortunate irrelevance. Sigh.

I feel your pain.


Flat like a goblin head - Chelixian propaganda.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And it lies atop the back of a giant wildebeast, precariously, and might tip over at any time which is why we have to keep the barghests happy, or else we're all done for.


can you sight a source for that statistic. I can believe it just want to read more about it.


She's a round, like a the apple a!


Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.


Masses of earth and sun: http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/sunfact.html

Mr. Anklebiter Doodlebug,

Does the Wildebeast have a mass? What is it? This could change things immeasurably, unless of course you can put a mass on the Wildebeast.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And the wildebeast stands atop a giant tortoise.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be shitting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!


This reminds me of John Oliver's take on Climate Change. About opinions and beliefs versus facts. Essentially this:

“You don’t need people’s opinion on a fact. You might as well have a poll asking: ‘Which number is bigger, 15 or 5?’ or ‘Do owls exist?’ or ‘Are there hats?’”


Mr. Anklebiter Doodlebug,

And it compounds! But I submit to you - the sun stands on the shoulder of giants - big giants - bigger than the wildebeast or the tortoise. Giants of so much mass that the wildebeast and tortoise look puny in comparison.


The smitter wrote:
can you sight a source for that statistic. I can believe it just want to read more about it.

I can not find the original article I read but here is something from the NY times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?ex=1125547200& en=631977063d726261&ei=5070


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.


Pink Dragon wrote:

Mr. Anklebiter Doodlebug,

And it compounds! But I submit to you - the sun stands on the shoulder of giants - big giants - bigger than the wildebeast or the tortoise. Giants of so much mass that the wildebeast and tortoise look puny in comparison.

[Smacks Pink Dragon]

Stupid pinkskin! Feeble brain not meant to understand barghests' plan!


Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s$**ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

Yes, it's been around for quite a while. Unfortunately their building burned to the ground destroying everything in it 10 or 15 years ago. While scientifically incorrect, what they had was unique and informative and a great loss.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.

I believe in math.

Take two pieces of wood, say 6ft. Take one for yourself, give one to your friend. Have your friend drive 500 miles north or south (make him do it, so you can be lazy). Then, at noon on the same day, use a level to get the sticks perfectly straight up and down. Now, measure the lengths of shadows that result.

Now, you've got some numbers AND sticks, you can throw away the sticks. But we need more numbers. The stick and ground form a right angle, which is 90 degrees. You know how long the stick is, 6ft. You know how long the shadow is... whatever you measure it as. Once you know those three things, you can use math to learn the degrees of the other two angles in the triangle. That angle near the top of the stick is important.

Take the top angle from each stick measurement. Subtract the smaller one from the bigger one. The resulting number is the number of degrees of difference between the locations where the measurements were made on the Earth's surface. You could then use that degree difference, plus the known distance of 500 miles to calculate the circumference of the Earth.

Neat.


Irontruth wrote:


Take two pieces of wood, say 6ft. Take one for yourself, give one to your friend. Have your friend drive 500 miles north or south (make him do it, so you can be lazy). Then, at noon on the same day, use a level to get the sticks perfectly straight up and down. Now, measure the lengths of shadows that result.

Now, you've got some numbers AND sticks, you can throw away the sticks. But we need more numbers. The stick and ground form a right angle, which is 90 degrees. You know how long the stick is, 6ft. You know how long the shadow is... whatever you measure it as. Once you know those three things, you can use math to learn the degrees of the other two angles in the triangle. That angle near the top of the stick is important.

Take the top angle from each stick measurement. Subtract the smaller one from the bigger one. The resulting number is the number of degrees of difference between the locations where the measurements were made on the Earth's surface. You could then use that degree difference, plus the known distance of 500 miles to calculate the circumference of the Earth.

Of course, the same geometry can be used to "prove" that the earth is flat, and that the sun is a small-ish ball about 25,000 miles away.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.

Why yes, yes I do.

I still want to go to the moon and establish colonies as a precursor to colonies at the Lagrange points around earth.

As long as the people living in the colonies don't rebel....


Vod Canockers wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s$**ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

Yes, it's been around for quite a while. Unfortunately their building burned to the ground destroying everything in it 10 or 15 years ago. While scientifically incorrect, what they had was unique and informative and a great loss.

I don't know which one disgusts me more. The society's existence or the loss of what they had gathered. Please tell me the fire wasn't sent intentionally.


Freehold DM wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s$**ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

Yes, it's been around for quite a while. Unfortunately their building burned to the ground destroying everything in it 10 or 15 years ago. While scientifically incorrect, what they had was unique and informative and a great loss.
I don't know which one disgusts me more. The society's existence or the loss of what they had gathered. Please tell me the fire wasn't sent intentionally.

It's been a while, but I am pretty sure it wasn't set intentionally. Some of the documents and books that were part of their collection were very rare. While they may not be accurate, that doesn't make them worthless.

As for the society disgusting you, there are some seriously worse groups out there compared to hundreds of flat-earthers.

Dark Archive

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:

Mr. Anklebiter Doodlebug,

And it compounds! But I submit to you - the sun stands on the shoulder of giants - big giants - bigger than the wildebeast or the tortoise. Giants of so much mass that the wildebeast and tortoise look puny in comparison.

[Smacks Pink Dragon]

Stupid pinkskin! Feeble brain not meant to understand barghests' plan!

It's turtles all the way down.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Is the tortoise male or female?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Can't we just agree you are all heretics at this point?


Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.

Why yes, yes I do.

I still want to go to the moon and establish colonies as a precursor to colonies at the Lagrange points around earth.

As long as the people living in the colonies don't rebel....

I give 'em a week.


I Flatly believe that the world goes round and round.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm absolutely certain the sun is pulled across the sky by a giant chariot. Before anyone tries to refute it with "evidence" that no one has seen the chariot, I contend that the sun is so bright that it makes seeing the chariot impossible.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Rawr! wrote:

I'm absolutely certain the sun is pulled across the sky by a giant chariot. Before anyone tries to refute it with "evidence" that no one has seen the chariot, I contend that the sun is so bright that it makes seeing the chariot impossible.

that chariot used to be parked in africa at night. My ancestors were the direct result of that poorly planned idea.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


Take two pieces of wood, say 6ft. Take one for yourself, give one to your friend. Have your friend drive 500 miles north or south (make him do it, so you can be lazy). Then, at noon on the same day, use a level to get the sticks perfectly straight up and down. Now, measure the lengths of shadows that result.

Now, you've got some numbers AND sticks, you can throw away the sticks. But we need more numbers. The stick and ground form a right angle, which is 90 degrees. You know how long the stick is, 6ft. You know how long the shadow is... whatever you measure it as. Once you know those three things, you can use math to learn the degrees of the other two angles in the triangle. That angle near the top of the stick is important.

Take the top angle from each stick measurement. Subtract the smaller one from the bigger one. The resulting number is the number of degrees of difference between the locations where the measurements were made on the Earth's surface. You could then use that degree difference, plus the known distance of 500 miles to calculate the circumference of the Earth.

Of course, the same geometry can be used to "prove" that the earth is flat, and that the sun is a small-ish ball about 25,000 miles away.

Math is neat.

Say you lived in a time without precise instrumentation, just wooden sticks that you cut to pretty close to 6ft. Maybe a protractor. Once you've done the previous calculation, and work off the assumption of the Earth being round, it's very possible to calculate the distance of the Moon, while arriving at a fairly accurate answer

Light from a distant object that is blocked by a circle produces a conical shadow. If you take a beach ball, if you hold it up to 108 beach balls high, it creates a shadow that's barely a single point, which increases in diameter as you lower the beach ball. There are also two apparently round objects which cast enormous shadows, the Earth and the Moon. It doesn't have to be a sphere either, it works with disk shaped objects.

On a lunar eclipse, the Earth blocks the Moon from the Sun and creates a shadow. The Moon is completely covered in that shadow, meaning it is smaller than the Earth, but is it large and just barely in the shadow? Or smaller and closer?

Well, if we use the calculation of the size of the Earth from the previous test, we can determine how long the Earth's shadow is. It will be 108 Earth diameters long. The Moon can also cast a shadow on the Earth, therefore it must be within 108 x it's diameter. We can also observe that the Earth's shadow is roughly 2.5 times the size of the moon during a lunar eclipse.

Both shadows are an isosceles triangles, with the same proportions. You can diagram them out and using geometry start figuring out the parts you don't know. It really isn't super complicated, humans have been able to do it for over 2000 years now.

If you use the stick method outlined earlier, you'll probably arrive at an answer that's about 5% off the actual value. Then, if you start applying that same math to the Sun, you get a completely inaccurate result, because there are factors that are hard to measure and account for, but even the ancient Greeks knew the Sun was at least 5,000,000 miles away. The distance to the Sun is difficult to measure with this method due to the massive scale difference (even compared to measuring the circumference of the Earth or distance to the moon) and relative proximity of all the measurement points so far.

It's difficult using the Moon to calculate the distance to the Sun. For one the Moon produces far fewer observable transits, and the distance between those locations is relatively small, so you'd have to make exceptionally precise measurements. It's much easier to use Venus, but that requires certain amounts of technology, like lens making.

The problem with anything from a FE'er is that nothing is consistent and nothing relies on observable facts.

I've probably made some errors along the way so far. I got a D in geometry as a kid. My teacher had a monotone voice and I could never stay awake. I think one time he had to wake me up three times during class... after that his motivation to keep me awake waned. That was the only math class I ever failed a test in.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
Quite recently I was shocked when I discovered that a good portion of the population of a couple of first world countries strongly believe in geocentrism. In retrospective I suppose I was too naive, human silliness should have always be remembered.

What exactly was silly about geocentrism... GIVEN THE AVAILABLE DATA AT THE TIME?

News flash for you, not every "primitive" culture was "geocentric". And the round earth view predated Columbus. The Mayans had the orbit Venus plotted to within 8 minutes, and Erathostenes had actually gotten the circumference of the Earth. He was off by a measly 33 miles and he did his measurement without leaving Athens. And he did it two centuries before the purported birth of Christ.

Our view of the universe still has a bit of heliocentrism about it... Every object we view in the heavens, we're viewing in it's past. The Moon about 1.5 seconds. If the Sun blew up we wouldn't see it for 8 minutes. The stars in the sky? we're looking at years, decades, centuries in the past. Andromeda? we're looking at it as it was before Humanity evolved into it's present form. The fartest reaches of the universe.... before the solar system itself came into being.

So in at least one level even today, Heliocentrism isn't entirely "silly".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Quite recently I was shocked when I discovered that a good portion of the population of a couple of first world countries strongly believe in geocentrism. In retrospective I suppose I was too naive, human silliness should have always be remembered.

What exactly was silly about geocentrism... GIVEN THE AVAILABLE DATA AT THE TIME?

News flash for you, not every "primitive" culture was "geocentric". And the round earth view predated Columbus. The Mayans had the orbit Venus plotted to within 8 minutes, and Erathostenes had actually gotten the circumference of the Earth. He was off by a measly 33 miles and he did his measurement without leaving Athens. And he did it two centuries before the purported birth of Christ.

It is a weird moment when somebody attack other person without actually knowing what that other person believes or knows.

"new flash for you", it sounds more like you are trying to cause flames.

Nothing what you say is new to me, Erathostenes should be known by anyone who liek to watch discovery channel and you forgot to mention Aristarchus of samus an ancient Heliocentrist.

I also believes the Ptolemy system was pretty good for the data avaliable (I actually say in the OP that there are misconception about this).

Actually, if you had taken some time to actually read the OP you would had noticed that I am talking about modern geocentrist people not the belief of the ancient.

So, please try to not reach conclusions and pretend to be smarter before you know what the other peorson is actually saying.

EDIT: By the way Erathostenes did his measurement/calculation about the earth in Alexandria.


Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:


found your forum for you.

you gotta be s#++ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

For most of my life I thought that "Flat Earth Society" was a sarcastic expression to call someone or something stupid.

A few years ago I tried to talk one of my co-workers to join the Flat Earth Society as a joke. We settled for pretending to join and addressing each other by our society membership numbers.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rawr! wrote:

I'm absolutely certain the sun is pulled across the sky by a giant chariot. Before anyone tries to refute it with "evidence" that no one has seen the chariot, I contend that the sun is so bright that it makes seeing the chariot impossible.

I, for one, believe him. 'Cause ya can't spell Rawr! without Ra.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bill Lumberg wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:


found your forum for you.

you gotta be s#++ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

For most of my life I thought that "Flat Earth Society" was a sarcastic expression to call someone or something stupid.

A few years ago I tried to talk one of my co-workers to join the Flat Earth Society as a joke. We settled for pretending to join and addressing each other by our society membership numbers.

I suspect that this is much like the Church of the SubGenius, a fair number of people of joining just for yuks.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
She's a round, like a the apple a!

No, she ees flat, like the pancake!


Shes around like my head!


Irontruth wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.

I believe in math.

Take two pieces of wood, say 6ft. Take one for yourself, give one to your friend. Have your friend drive 500 miles north or south (make him do it, so you can be lazy). Then, at noon on the same day, use a level to get the sticks perfectly straight up and down. Now, measure the lengths of shadows that result.

Now, you've got some numbers AND sticks, you can throw away the sticks. But we need more numbers. The stick and ground form a right angle, which is 90 degrees. You know how long the stick is, 6ft. You know how long the shadow is... whatever you measure it as. Once you know those three things, you can use math to learn the degrees of the other two angles in the triangle. That angle near the top of the stick is important.

Take the top angle from each stick measurement. Subtract the smaller one from the bigger one. The resulting number is the number of degrees of difference between the locations where the measurements were made on the Earth's surface. You could then use that degree difference, plus the known distance of 500 miles to calculate the circumference of the Earth.

Neat.

Cool story, bro.


Thanks, I think it is too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

you gotta be s*%+ting me.

Flat earth society is REAL?!!!

You probably believe in the moon landing.

Why yes, yes I do.

I still want to go to the moon and establish colonies as a precursor to colonies at the Lagrange points around earth.

As long as the people living in the colonies don't rebel....

Just hope they don't build giant robots out of a rare space alloy.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The ones built from rare alloys are fine. It's the mass produced one from common materials that are the problem.


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So...there's no scientific consensus on heliocentrism, just like there is no scientific consensus on man-made climate change? ;-)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:

Why yes, yes I do.

I still want to go to the moon and establish colonies as a precursor to colonies at the Lagrange points around earth.

As long as the people living in the colonies don't rebel....

I hear you can get a chance to begin again on the Off World Colonies.

Just watch our for those glittering C-Beams in the darkness near Tanhouser Gate.

The Exchange

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what you're all talking about.

The earth is flat.

found your forum for you.

At first I was sure the link would be to a Discworld forum.

Anyway, I went over there to see what's the vibe of those people. In the "Q&A" subforum they have a sticky "TOP 10 REASONS WHY THE EARTH IS ROUND debunked" thread, presumably to counter this video. What I found most hilarious is this quote, countering the 7th point - the Magellan effect:

"Again, the Earth isn't in the shape of a Mercator map. That would be silly. Magellan and many others simply made a circle around the disk of the Earth."

:D


Krensky wrote:
The ones built from rare alloys are fine. It's the mass produced one from common materials that are the problem.

We must have watched different series. In Wing, the mass produced ones may as well have been wet paper mache compared to the rare ones. It was like Dynasty Warriors level of winning wars single-handedly.

Liberty's Edge

Scythia wrote:
Krensky wrote:
The ones built from rare alloys are fine. It's the mass produced one from common materials that are the problem.
We must have watched different series. In Wing, the mass produced ones may as well have been wet paper mache compared to the rare ones. It was like Dynasty Warriors level of winning wars single-handedly.

But who uses the mass produced robots and who uses the Gundams, ignoring the trickery in the beginning of Wing and, well, all of G.


Krensky wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Krensky wrote:
The ones built from rare alloys are fine. It's the mass produced one from common materials that are the problem.
We must have watched different series. In Wing, the mass produced ones may as well have been wet paper mache compared to the rare ones. It was like Dynasty Warriors level of winning wars single-handedly.
But who uses the mass produced robots and who uses the Gundams, ignoring the trickery in the beginning of Wing and, well, all of G.

The mass produced ones are operated by soldiers, and the Gundams are operated by children.

Admittedly trained children, but I doubt the soldiers are untrained. I'm sure due to skill and talent, the kids could do okay in a Leo, but I'd only say 5:1 at best. Meanwhile put one in a custom gundam and it's closer to 100:1. I'd say equipment is the deciding factor.

Liberty's Edge

Watch something other than Wing. The majority of Gundams are piloted by trained soldiers.

My point, however, is that the side with the Gundams are the heroes, the side with tons of mass produced cannon fodder suits are the bad guys, and the ones who use colonies as weapons.

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