No.
From the paizo SRD (http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html)
"Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit."
"During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success."
"Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action."
A parry is a combat maneuver, not an attack.
Nowhere in there does it say they act as attacks, only that they can be taken in place of attacks.
Generally speaking, the whole nat 20 and nat 1 system are there to always leave a chance of failure, however small, no matter how well/poorly trained you are. That way you can't just die immediately, at least you get a chance to redeem yourself. Likewise, your masterfully sneaky ninja can still get spotted, as removal of an instant failure chance takes away some of the drama.
So Parry is considered a combat maneuver then? I couldn't find a definitive answer on that.
By the way, if you're saying Parry is a combat maneuver, then you're saying "Yes", a 20 does auto-parry every attack, since with combat maneuvers a 20 always succeeds.
** spoiler omitted **
"To parry the attack, the duelist makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack she chose to forego during her previous action."
Nowhere in the language does is say that parry is a combat maneuver, but it is an attack roll. Since it is an attack roll, it does fall under the rule of 1 and 20.
The reason it is not a combat maneuver is that it works against the attacker's attack roll, not the CMD, and it uses the attackers attack roll, not their CMB. Parry is more of an holdover from D&D 3.5. It might make more sense for parry to be converted into a combat maneuver, but by RAW it is not written that way.
So yes, a 20 will auto succeed, but you will not get any bonuses that are applied only to combat maneuvers(like agile maneuvers).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd allow it. It's referred to as an "attack roll" so I'd treat it as one.
And if both the attacker and the parrying swashbuckler got a natural 20, I'd rule in favor of the parry.
What if both the attacker and parryer both roll a natural 20? Does the world explode?
Attacker rolls 20 -> auto hit, resolve attack normally.
Defender rolls parry as part of the normal attack resolution, they roll a 20, this changes the hit to a miss.There are tons of things in the rules that can make a natural 20 miss(displacement, mirror images, etc). Parry is just another one of those things.
I did not read he entire set of replies but I read enough to agree that my initial assessment was incorrect and a nat 20 should auto succeed. Since the parry occurs as a reaction, I would have allowed the higher total to win but I'm actually inclined to give it to the parry.
I agree it should work.
As to ties, it should follow the normal rule for all ties: that the highest bonus wins. If that is a tie, a re-roll is in order.
I agree it should work.
As to ties, it should follow the normal rule for all ties: that the highest bonus wins. If that is a tie, a re-roll is in order.
Actually, if you go by strict RAW. A natural 20 makes the attack a hit irregardless of the actual number needed to hit. It does not means the attack will succeed no matter what(see concealment, mirror images, ethereal, etc). Another example would be that rolling a 20 on a trip attempt still will not let me trip a flying creature(immune to trip).
Person A attacks with a +100 to hit, they roll a 10, and it is a hit. Person B parrying with a +0 to hit rolls a 20, the parry is an attack roll, thus the parry automatically succeeds even though it does not beat the attackers roll. The results of a successful parry is that the hit is changed into a miss.
If you change person A's attack roll to a 20, it does not change anything, they still scored a hit. Parry negates a hit if it succeeds, and a natural 20 causes the parry roll to succeed irregardless of the actual target number they need to beat.
Unless the feature letting you parry has rules adressing nat 20 the nat 20 doesn't matter. Nat 20 are always a hit until something negates them. They can however be negated such as concealment.
In this case unless your parry mechanic has special rules for a 20 they likely only care about your opponents total.
My take ... specific rules beat general rules.
The general rule is 'natural 20 hits'.
The specific rule is 'parrying prevents hits.'
Specific beats general, so parrying beats nat.20.
|
This thread (linked) was created for the purposes of a clear FAQ request on the issue regarding parrying natural 20s.
I'd allow it. It's referred to as an "attack roll" so I'd treat it as one.
And if both the attacker and the parrying swashbuckler got a natural 20, I'd rule in favor of the parry.
I would rule in favor of the higher total. And ties go to the attacker in this system.
How I think it works:
Higher parry attack beats higher attack roll
Higher attack roll beats higher parry attack
Nat 20 parry beats any non nat 20 attack
Nat 20 attack beats any non nat 20 parry
If both are nat 20s, the higher one wins.
If both Attacker and Defender roll nat20, you get an epic clash with sparks and energy flying everywhere, the two combatants locking eyes and trying to overpower one another. It becomes a power struggle and each rolls again trying to break the deadlock. Whoever wins this roll is thrown backwards 20 feet and suffers 3d6 force damage. Each subsequent pair of 20's means a continuation of the clash and, when one ultimately fails, increases the distance by an additional 5' and the damage by an additional 1d6. The winner gets 10 hero points plus 2 for each additional continuation of the clash. All other combatants in line of sight must make a will save or be fascinated for 1d6 rounds.
Anyone who rolls a natural 1 on the will save is compelled to mention the power levels of each duelist.
Looking at the thread I wondered if the actual conditions was not overlooked.
People argued about whether a natural 20 always succeed. I believe that the conclusion that a natural 20 is critical success is sound and right.
However, have we really looked at the right condition for success?
Let's look again at the definition of parry as submitted by the OP:
Parry:
Parry (Ex): At 2nd level, a duelist learns to parry the attacks of other creatures, causing them to miss. Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action. To parry the attack, the duelist makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack she chose to forego during her previous action. If her attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category that the attacking creature(emphasis mine)
Parry is not rolling an attack against an ac, it's rolling against another attack roll. Parry seems to work if the defender's roll is higher than the attacker's roll. It doesn't require to succeed to hit against something.
so does it really matter if it's a natural 20 or not? In the end, by RAW, it requires to be higher than the other one's attack roll.
So, following this reasoning, if both have a natural 20, it doesn't matter, the one with the highest bonus total attack roll) wins....
Or another example: if attacker rolls a nat 20 (an automatic hit)with a +2 bonus to attack roll (total 22) and the defender has rolled 18 with a +5 bonus to attack roll (total 23), then the parry (23) should beat the attack roll(22. Yes the attack roll succeeded, but the parry worked also since it only required to have a higher attack roll than the attacker.
In the end, does it matter if the attacker succeed at hitting with or without a natural 20. In...
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).
The parry is clearly listed as being an attack roll. Attack rolls are subject to the rule of 20 which mean that a 20 is an automatic hit. In this case a hit would be interpreted as a successful parry. The rules would be bloated if they listed every place the rule of 20 comes into play, and how it works in that particular instance. Hence why we have a general for the rule of 20.
The problem is that there are 2 interpretations of what a 20 means on the attack roll
1. The attack is a hit no matter what
2. The attack is a hit no matter what the target to hit number is.
The problem with interpretation 1 is that it is already well established that a 20 on a hit roll can be negated by concealment. How is a successful parry roll negating a 20 to hit any different than concealment negating a 20 to hit?
The difference is that a miss chance is completely independent of the to hit roll while the parry mechanic still relies on it.
A parry is certainly an attack roll. A natural 20 on an attack roll is an automatic hit (and a threat for critical).
However, with a parry you are not even trying to hit. You are trying to beat the opponents attack roll.
There are other differences between this roll and other attack rolls. In other attack rolls, you need to beat or equal your target number to succeed, with a parry, equal doesn't cut it, you have to beat it.
So, my read, is although it is an attack roll, unlike other attack rolls it has its own special rules for success and failure and those special rules don't have anything about a natural 20 (or 1.)
I also think that you can successfully parry your opponents natural 20, even if you don't roll one yourself, if you have a good enough roll + bonuses.
My RAW reading is a nat 20 does not automatically block an attack. At the same time, an opponent rolling a nat 20 doesn't automatically hit either if you can roll high enough.
No where does it say a Nat 20 automatically parries.
