Goblin Squad Member
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We know that Pathfinder Online will have a time based experience system similar to some other games out there, such as Eve Online. We know that there will also be some interesting differences: 1. Your earned experience points do not need to be "pre assigned" to anything while you are earning them. 2. You need "achievements" pared with your accumulated experience points to qualify for some things that you may want to buy with exp pts. (skills, feats, etc...).
Other things, such as ability score requirements and requisite "skills" are similar and typical in most games.
We know that we can always mentor new (incoming) players with our knowledge of what skills, feats, etc... work well together. What, where, when, and how to do the things that they need to do. Even down to who is friendly, who is not, and how to muck about "the world" in the safest or general way that they will find the fun they are seeking.
What I am wondering is, how the "achievement" recognition system will work? If I party with players newer than I am, and go after their wanted achievements, will that hamper their gain? Will my actions, while grouped with them, count toward their gain? Assume that I already have these "achievements" and just want to help.
Is it right or wrong to "power level" new players this way?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe crafting/POI/Settlement management will all be based on what a SINGLE character will do.
I don't think it should be fair for a party to go wipe out a Hex and it all be added to ONE characters achievement. Achievements should be on what the Individual has killed/done. At the most, a party could go in and help, but not get the kill or the what ever the achievement is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Urman
I am leaning somewhat along those lines, though would not mind seeing special cases.
For example: Two people in a "party". One is watching for bandits or mobs, while one is prospecting skymetal. Both should probably not get "Achievement Earned: Gather 10 skymetal". But maybe, "Achievement Earned: Slayer of Renegade Ogres" if that prospector gets a blow in on the ogre.
That may be too code involved?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt powerleveling will be a concern in this game. The XP system alone makes it largely a non-issue. If they really wanted to, they could make some achievements require being solo or attach whatever limits they want on any particular achievement.
I am trying to illustrate "power leveling" in the context of achievements. Not in the traditional way that we think of it as "actions=exp".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Helping someone get all their achievements beforehand (assuming they don't have to have a certain skill rank before starting on them) won't really help them become more powerful any quicker. They would still have to wait on getting enough XP. So I don't think it will be an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually I think PfO has lots of levels instead of just the one level value in TT(PnP,F2F)
Levels (ranks) in skills, but many more skills than in PF.
Skills and achievements result in advancement in roles.
Activities, achievements, and skill lead to higher 'levels' in attributes (or what they are called in PfO).
Players will choose the assignment of experience and the focus of actions which will affect these multiple levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well my point was the XP system puts a natural check on "achievement" powerleveling to where I doubt it'll be much of a concern. Even if you race someone through a bunch of achievements they still need the XP (and vice versa).
Every achievement doesn't need to be accessible immediately, either. When you earn 1000xp maybe a new batch of achievements unlock. 5000xp, a new batch.
Plenty of ways to make powerleveling a non-issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well my point was the XP system puts a natural check on "achievement" powerleveling to where I doubt it'll be much of a concern. Even if you race someone through a bunch of achievements they still need the XP (and vice versa).
Every achievement doesn't need to be accessible immediately, either. When you earn 1000xp maybe a new batch of achievements unlock. 5000xp, a new batch.
Plenty of ways to make powerleveling a non-issue.
If I read you right, I agree that it is not really a thing that can be abused.
Some games have a "round robin" system for party members and kills, or whatever. Some even let you help and exclude yourself from the "round robin" credit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've always hated when games don't give you group credit for quests/achievements or whatever. It makes grouping and playing with friends feel so tedious. There's no faster way to make people say "Ugh, lets play something else" than when the 10 boar tongues you need to collect suddenly turn into 20, or 50, because you have friends who need it too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've always hated when games don't give you group credit for quests/achievements or whatever. It makes grouping and playing with friends feel so tedious. There's no faster way to make people say "Ugh, lets play something else" than when the 10 boar tongues you need to collect suddenly turn into 20, or 50, because you have friends who need it too.
That is a great way to put it. Definitely what I would like to see GW avoid if they are able.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mentoring is fully intended. One of the main reasons the company influence system pays out primarily on members earning achievements is to incentivize recruiting new players and helping them through their achievements. We've been discussing some additional mechanics that might further reward even more personal mentoring.
Ideally, of course, they're actually learning how to play the game during this period and not just sitting at the edge of a hex soaking up achievements. We might step in and tune the system if that starts to become the preferred method. But otherwise, if you're dragging newbs around in a big zerg to collect achievements and they're participating, getting geared up, and becoming skilled at the game, that's all to the good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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just sitting at the edge of a hex soaking up achievements.
I think we will see this, but they will be Alts rather then truly new players. I take it the character needs to be in the hex in order to get the achievement? At least this would get those Alts exposed when they are soaking up those achievements.
I very much like the approach to impose as few artificial restrictions as possible on the players in a group. It makes sense for this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mentoring is fully intended. One of the main reasons the company influence system pays out primarily on members earning achievements is to incentivize recruiting new players and helping them through their achievements. We've been discussing some additional mechanics that might further reward even more personal mentoring.
Ideally, of course, they're actually learning how to play the game during this period and not just sitting at the edge of a hex soaking up achievements. We might step in and tune the system if that starts to become the preferred method. But otherwise, if you're dragging newbs around in a big zerg to collect achievements and they're participating, getting geared up, and becoming skilled at the game, that's all to the good.
Powerlevelling or not: To me this is just as much about how GW designs achievements, as about what culture we adopt.
Culture: I'd like my settlement to be staffed by competent players and characters. 'Powerlevelling' a destiny twin is fine but helping someone skip the learning curve is not necessarily smart in the long run. I currently see achievements as "now you have a new ability, go out and prove you understand how to use it before we give you the next one".
Design: Consider "Participate in slaying a dire bear", vs "single-handedly slay a bear". The first one could be achieved by a spectator contributing with a single arrow or buff. The second one, a group could certainly help (buffing/healing, taking care of the mama bear, guarding my corpse, etc) but could also hinder. Variant requirements like doing 50%+ of the damage, landing at least one solid hit or special blow, or holding aggro/staying in melee range during the whole fight also drastically change how groups can cooperate with the achievement.
As a minimum, the achievement should require you to actually use the skills or role the achievement is linked to. Having your group serve you the situation on a silver plate is ok for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I could see achievements requiring the use of the abilities you just gained through other achievement unlocks.
I slayed 25 Goblins, I unlocked an achievement that allows me to use something like Cleave.
Kill 25 Creatures/PCs through the use of your Cleave to unlock the next achievement in the tree.
Might take awhile, but it is something that you could definitely use a party to help achieve, as well as the ability to gain the achievement through PvP content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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just sitting at the edge of a hex soaking up achievements.I think we will see this, but they will be Alts rather then truly new players. I take it the character needs to be in the hex in order to get the achievement? At least this would get those Alts exposed when they are soaking up those achievements.
I very much like the approach to impose as few artificial restrictions as possible on the players in a group. It makes sense for this game.
*starts singing*
"Alt hunting I will go, alt hunting I will go,easy prey on a lazy day, alt hunting I will go!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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just sitting at the edge of a hex soaking up achievements.I think we will see this, but they will be Alts rather then truly new players. I take it the character needs to be in the hex in order to get the achievement? At least this would get those Alts exposed when they are soaking up those achievements.
I very much like the approach to impose as few artificial restrictions as possible on the players in a group. It makes sense for this game.
*starts singing*
"Alt hunting I will go, alt hunting I will go,
easy prey on a lazy day, alt hunting I will go!"
This.... Whether it's a true alt or a bot, any afk just standing there, that is a SAD magnet. Issue a SAD, if no response after the timer runs out, kill and loot.
The good thing about gold farmers, they have loot and typically no skill to defend themselves. They also, typically go solo or in very small (2-3) groups, so as to not attract attention to themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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might be a little less lucrative if they have 1 bot with an empty bank as party leader who is set to auto-accept any SADs
This. Anyone trying to milk the system by standing on the edge of the hex will most likely be barren of items in their inventory. Unless I misread from before, gold isn't a lootable option from a corpse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it right or wrong to "power level" new players this way?
In other games "power leveling" is considered bad because it quickly brings players at a certain level of play (usually the "end game") but doesn't give them the time to learn how to effectively play their Characters. There's a similar problem, though, with players soloing up to "end game", because then they haven't learned effective group tactics.
I think "power leveling" in PFO will be a very good thing. Because of the constrained XP gain, they won't be rushed to the "end game" without having time to learn to effectively play their Characters. And because they'll be grouping, they won't miss out on opportunities to learn effective group tactics.
I say it's right! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm hoping that most achievements are based on an individual action, not a party action.
Can you expand on this? It sounds like you're saying we should only be able to earn achievements while not in a group. I can't imagine a game focused on "meaningful human interaction" would punish players for grouping, by slowing down the rate of earning achievements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope the Devs are more creative them making the achievements, "Kill 10 goblins" or "Collect 15 Wolf Pelts". Those only encourage grinding and are completely boring.
Look at the Q4 Backer Update Video at 1:35 and you'll see two Slayer achievements in the upper right hand corner. Goblin Slayer 4 looks like it requires killing 10 Goblins. Ogre Slayer 2 looks like it requires killing 2 Ogres.
I'd recommend setting your expectations appropriately, trusting PFO to deliver really great tools for meaningful PvP, and not getting your heart set on ground-breaking innovations for PvE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope the Devs are more creative them making the achievements, "Kill 10 goblins" or "Collect 15 Wolf Pelts". Those only encourage grinding and are completely boring.Look at the Q4 Backer Update Video at 1:35 and you'll see two Slayer achievements in the upper right hand corner. Goblin Slayer 4 looks like it requires killing 10 Goblins. Ogre Slayer 2 looks like it requires killing 2 Ogres.
I'd recommend setting your expectations appropriately, trusting PFO to deliver really great tools for meaningful PvP, and not getting your heart set on ground-breaking innovations for PvE.
As long as it's not like the damn zhevra hooves quest in WoW. Every zhevra has FOUR HOOVES... so why did it always take several DOZEN zhevra kills to get ten hooves?! Is my aim just that bad? I mean, I know I'm pretty useless without my glasses, but still...
At any rate, I expect mentoring will be an important part of the game. It's a great way to build community spirit, and group outings are always so much fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope the Devs are more creative them making the achievements, "Kill 10 goblins" or "Collect 15 Wolf Pelts". Those only encourage grinding and are completely boring.Look at the Q4 Backer Update Video at 1:35 and you'll see two Slayer achievements in the upper right hand corner. Goblin Slayer 4 looks like it requires killing 10 Goblins. Ogre Slayer 2 looks like it requires killing 2 Ogres.
I'd recommend setting your expectations appropriately, trusting PFO to deliver really great tools for meaningful PvP, and not getting your heart set on ground-breaking innovations for PvE.
Especially at first. (Meaning at least early EE) Never give up though! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as it's not like the damn zhevra hooves quest in WoW. Every zhevra has FOUR HOOVES... so why did it always take several DOZEN zhevra kills to get ten hooves?!
And there were countless other examples of the same basic problem.
My hope is that the constrained rate of gaining XP will completely unshackle Goblinworks from any notion that they need to use rare drops to slow down Character Progression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ ArchAnjel
I do not think we will ever going to see any of the typical Themepark quests, like "escort this NPC" with lots of scripted encounters popping up along the way, and requiring several NPC's with a lot of dialogue.
They do not have the budget and this sort of content is not their focus.
I could see a lot of player-run quests pop up though when the game is well on its way. Like a "7 town run" where you need to bring a trophee from each of the towns, including the towns with Evil or even Chaotic Evil alignment.
I hope, at some point, that GW will enable us to easily create such a quest ourselves. They would have to provide the game-system, but not the actual content. Basically expand on the Contract system that is already on the table. Being able to set a few parameters and requirements, write Quest dialog, provide a reward out of the creators pocket, that sort of thing, and load it up to a "Questgiver NPC" like for instance the NPC bartender at a PoI-tavern or the "NPC-regular" that comes with the backer-Tavern. Would be fun and give an extra reason to visit a Tavern.
That way they can keep concentrating on their main features like the Settlements(buildings) and PoI's, Economy, Crafting, Siege warfare, Rep, Alignment, Resources and Escalations, while the players can create themepark-like quest content for eachother(undoubtedly sprinkled with PvP!).
I feel like goals we make for ourselves and/or our group is much more meaningful than the quests you see in themepark games. In many ways its much more unique and a more long term way of playing a game, as in you are not running the same quest as everybody else in the area, and it actually affects the world around you. And the stories that will come from it are much more unique aswell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...write Quest dialog...
There's your problem right there. I'm sure you wouldn't write quest dialog that's racist, sexist, or offensive in any way. But not everyone is you.
A system such as the one you have described would need such resources devoted to scrutiny that it becomes a question of whether those resources would be better spent just designing quests themselves that they KNOW to not be offensive. And they have said there will be theme park elements in the game; that much is known already.
I am saying that I hope those theme park elements (quests and achievements) are not modeled after the theme parks of 10 years ago but rather that they reflect current advances in both technology and design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the most basic level, I would rather see "Clear a goblin camp" than "Kill 4 goblins", or "Clear a goblin fort" than "Kill 20 goblins." Quests and achievements should be dependant upon accomplishing some significant task, something that makes a difference in the game world, rather than just meeting an arbitrary quota.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the most basic level, I would rather see "Clear a goblin camp" than "Kill 4 goblins", or "Clear a goblin fort" than "Kill 20 goblins." Quests and achievements should be dependant upon accomplishing some significant task, something that makes a difference in the game world, rather than just meeting an arbitrary quota.
Going back to the video I linked above, it shows:
Goblin Slayer 4 Level: 4/12
- Adventure: 1
- TODO Counter Desc: 6/10
It sounds like Goblin Slayer has 12 parts. Part 1 is probably "Slay One Goblin". Part 2 is probably "Slay Two Goblins". Part 3 is probably "Slay Five Goblins". Part 4 is obviously "Slay 10 Goblins". This seems perfectly reasonable to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if some later parts include "Slay One Goblin Champion", "Slay Ten Goblin Chieftains", etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that that's what it lools like. I am expressing my dismay and my hope for something better.
Not sure why this would dismay you? The game is not about theme park content, yet they are including a decent amount regardless. It is still generally treated as part of the sandbox in a lot of ways.
I remember an early question I posed to Ryan about whether players would be able to ally themselves with monster clans down the road. It sounded like that would be possible at some point; which is way more exciting than escort, retrieve, and kill x whatevers. It does not mean that there is not also a place for kill x whatevers as well, particularly if it is more for achievement tracking or fulfilling ability quests (as I suspect the above example was).