A few questions about Baleful Polymorph


Rules Questions


Ok so in our campaign I'm playing a rogue and in our last encounter was turned into a squirrel by baleful polymorph.

So I have two questions about this spell. Can I sneak attack as a squirrel? Can the spell be dispelled by dispel magic?

I was looking if sneak attack was en (ex) ability as it says in the description of the spell that you don't have access to those but it doesn't say anywhere if sneak attack is an extraordinary ability.

Secondly the dm ruled that baleful polymorph can't be dispelled as it's an instantenous spell but it says in the description of the spell that it's a permanent spell.

Would love your input.


Heyo,

This is the organized play section of the boards. Chances are this belongs in a rules forum. It may get moved.

So I have two questions about this spell. Can I sneak attack as a squirrel?

Yes, but its hard. You have no space or reach so you need the opponent to be flat footed or have another ability like swarming or gang up to let you flank even when you're not.

Can the spell be dispelled by dispel magic?

Yes.

I was looking if sneak attack was en (ex) ability as it says in the description of the spell that you don't have access to those but it doesn't say anywhere if sneak attack is an extraordinary ability.

Polymorph, under the magic chapter

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

Polymorph, under the magic chapter

Your sneak attack ability is dependant on your knowledge of anatomy, so if you can sneak attack someone, you do. (the achilies heel should be in reach...)

Secondly the dm ruled that baleful polymorph can't be dispelled as it's an instantenous spell but it says in the description of the spell that it's a permanent spell.

You've got the reason you're right right there.


Thank you for the quick reply. I don't mind if the thread is moved. I thought I was right just want to have some confirmation before I check bac with the DM.

Thx for the help.


I did just want to ask one more thing. I'm a 7th lvl rogue, how exactly would my stats and skills change as a squirrel. I succeded on the will save so I'm still me but I'm a squirrel.

I know that since I'm now a diminutive animal my stats get these changes "Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.", but what happens to the rest of my stats. Are hit points unchanged? I'm assuming my skills get modified by the new values and I get a variety of size bonuses and penalties, but what about my constitution? Do I keep it, cause if so I am one tough ass squirrel.

Does the armor bonus from my armor still apply? Does the item I was wearing to increase my stats still work?

I'm sorry for asking so many questions I just like to know the details of my predicament. Thx in advance.

Silver Crusade

I take it that you make the secondary Will save so you still have your mind? If you did the other stats stay the same, if you didn't roll it you...

Baleful Polymorph wrote:
If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own.

As far as what gear you can use or is effective, that is detailed in the animal archive.

Animal Archive wrote:

Body Type: Quadruped (claws/paws)

Available Slots: Armor, belt (saddle), chest, eyes, headband, neck, shoulders, wrist
Animal Companions: Badger, bear, cheetah, dire rat, dog, giant weasel, goblin dog, hyena, leopard, lion, panda, thylacine, tiger, wolf, wolverine
Familiars: Cat, donkey rat, flying squirrel, fox,hedgehog, mongoose, otter, platypus, raccoon, rat, skunk, squirrel, weasel

As far as speaking goes I'd go for a torc of tongues or what it would be for you which is a collar of tongues...the cheapest, least expensive way out is getting a Dispel Magic or Break Enchantment cast


Yes I succeded on my second will save. So my mind is still intact, fortunately, otherwise my character would have been effectivelly dead. When I was turned we were fighting in the forest and when I'd be turned I'd get scared, I mean I'd be a squirrel in the middle of a large fight with monsters and such, and I would just run away probably never to be seen again.

If I hadn't succeded on my second will save I'd have no need for help since I would most likely have to reroll.


Bear in mind if you fail to clear the condition by the end of the scenario you are reported as dead.

This thread is giving me a strong feeling of deja-vu. Isn't this the exact same isue which caused the "uncleared conditions report you as dead" ruling?


andreww wrote:

Bear in mind if you fail to clear the condition by the end of the scenario you are reported as dead.

This thread is giving me a strong feeling of deja-vu. Isn't this the exact same isue which caused the "uncleared conditions report you as dead" ruling?

Pretty sure the question/poster actually has nothing to do with PFS.


Butmunch wrote:

I did just want to ask one more thing. I'm a 7th lvl rogue, how exactly would my stats and skills change as a squirrel. I succeded on the will save so I'm still me but I'm a squirrel.

I know that since I'm now a diminutive animal my stats get these changes "Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.", but what happens to the rest of my stats. Are hit points unchanged? I'm assuming my skills get modified by the new values and I get a variety of size bonuses and penalties, but what about my constitution? Do I keep it, cause if so I am one tough ass squirrel.

Does the armor bonus from my armor still apply? Does the item I was wearing to increase my stats still work?

I'm sorry for asking so many questions I just like to know the details of my predicament. Thx in advance.

You want to read the Polymorph rules in the magic chapter.

Baleful Polymorph works as Beast Shape III but only into a small or smaller creature. That gives you a +4 dexterity and +2 natural armour if you are small, +4dex, -2str and +1 natural armour if you are tiny and +6dex, -4str and +1 natural armour if you are diminutive.

All of your gear melds into your new form. Your armour ceases to work at all and only the continuous effects of magic items continue to operate. So a +4dex belt would continue to provide you with its benefit but you could not activate the ability of a jingasa of the fortunate soldier (although you would keep its ac bonus).

All of your other stats are recalculated on this basis. So your carrying capacity, reflex save, AC, initiative, and attack routine would be changed. Your HP stay the same as your Con has not changed.

You gain the movement types of your new form as well as its natural attacks. Squirrels use the same stats as rats so you gain a 15' land, climb and swin speed. You have a single bite attack but no reach so you have to move into a creatures square to attack it which will provoke an opportunity attack. You also gain its low light vision and scent.


andreww wrote:

Bear in mind if you fail to clear the condition by the end of the scenario you are reported as dead.

This thread is giving me a strong feeling of deja-vu. Isn't this the exact same isue which caused the "uncleared conditions report you as dead" ruling?

That really wasn't what I was wondering about, I had more specific querries about baneful polymorph, so far I think I have a pretty good grasp of what exactly happened to me.

My stats changed as I described before, str,dex and natural armor got modified and all the skills changed accordingly. My con, hp, hd, int, cha and wis stay the same.

The armor I had on stopped functioning, the two constant magical items I have on are still working so I still have extra dex and bonus ac (I'm imagining a little tiny headband and a little tiny belt on the squirrel :)), I can't use the potions that are melded into me or some magic items that need to be activated.

I can't use my weapon and gain one bite attack. There is a basic squirrel in the bestiary, it has one bite. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/squirrel

I lose all of my old (ex) and (su) skills (evasion and such).

And my move speed becomes 20 ft and I gain 20 ft climb.

So I'm a very sturdy squirrel, that can jump 20 ft, my base dmg is 1 but I can sneak attack and since I'm in a forest and there's undergrowth everywhere I can basically sneak everywhere, climb the trees and scout ahead jumping tree to tree, it's an extremely dense forest and what not.

Is what I wrote here basically correct?


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You keep evasion. Its not based on your form, and you only lose abilities based on your form. Evasion comes from your class. Human rogues, squirrel rogues, and ooze rogues all have evasion so you keep it.

If you had gang up and an agile amulet of mighty fists you could make the dm regret polymorphing you...


The only reason I mentioned evasion is because it says under the description of the spell that you "retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities." Evasion is an extraordinary ability. This is jut semantics, personally I don't see why a squirrel shouldn't be able to have evasion but I don't make the rules.


Butmunch wrote:
The only reason I mentioned evasion is because it says under the description of the spell that you "retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities." Evasion is an extraordinary ability. This is jut semantics, personally I don't see why a squirrel shouldn't be able to have evasion but I don't make the rules.

Well I didn't plan on becoming a squirrel, I'm just happy I retained my mind and aren't nutty for nuts.


andreww wrote:
Butmunch wrote:

I did just want to ask one more thing. I'm a 7th lvl rogue, how exactly would my stats and skills change as a squirrel. I succeded on the will save so I'm still me but I'm a squirrel.

I know that since I'm now a diminutive animal my stats get these changes "Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.", but what happens to the rest of my stats. Are hit points unchanged? I'm assuming my skills get modified by the new values and I get a variety of size bonuses and penalties, but what about my constitution? Do I keep it, cause if so I am one tough ass squirrel.

Does the armor bonus from my armor still apply? Does the item I was wearing to increase my stats still work?

I'm sorry for asking so many questions I just like to know the details of my predicament. Thx in advance.

You want to read the Polymorph rules in the magic chapter.

Baleful Polymorph works as Beast Shape III but only into a small or smaller creature. That gives you a +4 dexterity and +2 natural armour if you are small, +4dex, -2str and +1 natural armour if you are tiny and +6dex, -4str and +1 natural armour if you are diminutive.

All of your gear melds into your new form. Your armour ceases to work at all and only the continuous effects of magic items continue to operate. So a +4dex belt would continue to provide you with its benefit but you could not activate the ability of a jingasa of the fortunate soldier (although you would keep its ac bonus).

All of your other stats are recalculated on this basis. So your carrying capacity, reflex save, AC, initiative, and attack routine would be changed. Your HP stay the same as your Con has not changed.

You gain the movement types of your new form as well as its natural attacks. Squirrels use the same stats as rats so you gain a 15' land, climb and swin...

As I said I don't mind this thread being moved, I can see that I put it in a completely inappropriate section. I do at least hope it doesn't get deleted.

I gotta say though the polymorph and associated things are not completely well explained in the books.


Most of the information you need is in the Magic chapter, under Transmutation, Polymorph subschool. It has to cover quite a few potential changes/effects, so it speaks in very broad terms and you have to interpret it a bit.

From what I've read, you pretty much have it down just fine.

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