First PFS character need some advice.


Advice

Grand Lodge

Hi all I been mulling over my first ever PFS character and I have one main concept but cant choose between 2 builds.

The concept is a Swordmaster Tengu that uses feint.

I have come up with 2 concept builds the first is a pure rogue, the second is a 50/50 split rogue/samurai.

Any advise, comments, or complete reworks on the builds is much appreciated.

Rogue (Swordmaster) Version
Duel wield Wakizashi.
Rogue (Swordmaster) 1
Tengu: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution
Medium, Low-Light Vision (Ex)
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12
Feats: Combat Expertise
Traits: Swordsmans Page, Threatening Defender
Abilities: Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Sneaky, Gifted Linguist, Swordtrained, Natural Weapon bite 1d3
Feat/Ability Progression:
2 Evasion, Rogue Talent (Finesse Rogue)
3 Sneak Attack 2d6, Trance (Serpent), Two Weapon Fighting
4 Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Improve Feint)
5 Sneak Attack 3d6, Piranha Strike
6 Trance (Tiger), Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
7 Sneak Attack 4d6, Two Weapon Feint
8 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Honeyed Words)
9 Trance (Monkey), Sneak Attack 5d6, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Rogue Talent (Deadly Sneak)
11 Sneak Attack 6d6, Improved Critical
12 Trance (Dragon), Advanced Rogue Talent (Crippling Strike)

Samurai (Sword Saint) /Rogue (Swordmaster) Version
2 Handed Katana
Rogue (Swordmaster) 1
Tengu: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution
Medium, Low-Light Vision (Ex)
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12
Feats: Combat Expertise
Traits: Swordsmans Page, Threatening Defender
Abilities: Sneak Attack (1d6), Trapfinding, Sneaky, Gifted Linguist, Swordtrained, Natural Weapon bite (1d3)
Feat/Ability Progression:
2 (Sam 1) Challenge 1/day, Resolve, Order (of the Warrior), Iaijutsu Strike 1d6
3 (Rog 2) Evasion, Power Attack, Rogue Talent (Furious Focus)
4 (Sam 2) Honor in All Things
5 (Rog 3) Sneak Attack 2d6, Trance (Serpent), Improved Feint
6 (Sam 3) Weapon Expertise (Katana), Brutal Slash, Iaijutsu Strike 2d6
7 (Rog 4) Uncanny Dodge, Wave Strike, Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
8 (Sam 4) Challenge 2/day
9 (Rogue 5) Sneak Attack 3d6, Greater Feint
10 (Sam 5) Terrifying Iaijutsu
11 (Rog 6) Trance (Tiger), Rogue Talent (Honeyed Words)
12 (Sam 6) Vital Strike, Bonus Feat (Long Nose Form)

Grand Lodge

Is it your intent to be capable at melee combat? if so, Option 1 is not effective at melee, while option 2 is reasonably effective at melee. You are considering exotic builds that may not perform well mechanically.

Some PC Characteristics that tend to hinder melee effectiveness:
1. Less than full BaB
2. Two weapon fighting
3. DEX build

Some people consider the above options 'traps', because they seem like a good idea, but they don't actually perform very well.

Some PC Characteristics that tend to improve melee effectiveness
1. Full BaB
2. Using one big weapon in both hands
3. STR build

Your 2nd build seems far more effective, as it trades DEX for STR and uses a Two Handed Weapon over two-weapon fighting. Your first build will struggle to remain relevant in combat. Your second build will be in the thick of things.

Note that swords were rarely primary battle weapons. For daily use and carry the convenience of a sword is ideal. Consider loading up on something heavier if you expect to actually face combat (e.g. go on a PFS adventure).

Choice of weapons:

Wakizashi wrote:
These short, slender blades are between 1 to 2 feet long. They are primarily used as back-up weapons ...
Katana wrote:
Specifically constructed for samurai, katanas employ multiple types of steel combined in a distinctive forging process. The result are swords noted for their wickedly sharp yet slender, gently curved blades, designed to make graceful hacking strokes capable of severing opponents’ heads and limbs. Though finely balanced, these blades are difficult to master.

versus, for example:

Bardiche wrote:
The crescent axe blade of this polearm is attached to the haft at two points: the center of the blade attaches to a socket at the top of the haft, and the lower point of the blade attaches to a secondary mount point. The blade is often very long, sometimes almost as long as the haft.

The heavy polearm gives you greater reach, more battlefield control, and the occasional AoO. Once the foe gets past your reach (and you get a free AoO) then you can drop the polearm and bring out the katana.

***********

About multi-classing as rogue: Consider what your Rogue levels get you, versus what more levels of Samurai get you. Keep these things in mind:

1. Traps rarely matter in PFS play. They are never lethal, so the easiest way to handle traps is usually to trip them, take the damage, then heal up with a wand of Cure Light Wounds.

2. Stealth rarely matters in PFS play. This is because e.g. the party Wizard or Druid is likely to have a stealthy telepathic flying bat that can scout better than the most skilled rogue.

3. Sneak attack rarely matters in PFS play. Feint will help you get sneak attack damage, but it's not that much extra damage, and you won't always get it. Many foes are immune to sneak attack damage.

4. Multi-classing is rarely optimal. Multi-classing Rogue (generally considered the weakest Pathfinder class, by a large margin) hurts even more.

5. Full BaB lets you hit more often.

That said, you can make either build work in PFS play. Just make sure you have an eclectic set of skills, that you role play well, and especially that you have fun and bring fun to your table.


While dual classing to get the swordmaster trance sounds great in theory I do have to caveat that in practice I have found it underwhelming because of 1) full round to activate & 2) ends at inopportune times. With the dual class build and a 10 WIS you are looking at 6 rounds of trance at level 11 - you might find yourself activating it before the boss fight then becoming fatigued during that fight.

Grand Lodge

Dennis Deadsky wrote:
That said, you can make either build work in PFS play. Just make sure you have an eclectic set of skills, that you role play well, and especially that you have fun and bring fun to your table.

This statement right there is what I was hoping. In the past I have only played in regular groups of local players. many min-max to the hilt and its the "utility" that always causes our groups to fail before the end of a campaign. That and many GMs I've played with don't use pre-written material and fall foul to adding too powerful a creature just because in the last 3 sessions the party has annihilated everything thrown at them.

I must admit that I do enjoy getting involved with the combat and while this guy isn't optimized I envision there being some situations where he will do pretty well.

AC/HP: The rogue build starts with 18 AC (lamellar, leather) and this will hopefully help with his 10 starting hit points.
The samurai version only has 16 AC but 12 hps and by second level DR 1/- vs his challenge target.
Once he's acted he gains +1 AC from combat expertise with no penalty to attack thanks to Threatening Defender.

Damage
Rogue: hopefully by utilizing positioning the rogue wont have to deal with feinting every round. I'm hoping to use my skills to put my opponents at a disadvantage. By 7th level two weapon faint will help get sneak attacks through minus 1 attack per round.
Samurai: This build does have the edge with the Katana over the rogue base weapon wise and thanks to Wave Strike by 7th level is feinting as a swift action.

Both builds will make use of the Tengu +1/2 confirm crit as well as swordsmans page giving me +5 to confirm crits - both katana and wakizashi will be 15-20 crit once improved critical is taken but if I can get a keen weapon earlier all the better.

Don't forget that the Tengu also has a bite as a secondary attack. it may be only 1d3 but once Greater Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint (level 13 for rogue) are in that's another attack that is increased by sneak attack damage.

Other options I've also considered...
For the rogue, going with moonstalker feats and rogue talents to gain ninja talent Smoke Bomb use - dropping a smoke bomb to gain concealment. (also briefly considered going ninja but that loses me the swordmaster archtype and that was primarily the concept of the build in the first place.)

For the Samurai dropping feint altogether and going for more melee favourable feats to increase attack and AC.

Will definitely consider carrying a polearm type weapon though.

Thanks for your input Dennis.

Grand Lodge

cnetarian wrote:
While dual classing to get the swordmaster trance sounds great in theory I do have to caveat that in practice I have found it underwhelming because of 1) full round to activate & 2) ends at inopportune times. With the dual class build and a 10 WIS you are looking at 6 rounds of trance at level 11 - you might find yourself activating it before the boss fight then becoming fatigued during that fight.

Your right Cnetarian and its why I'm leaning to the pure rogue option atm. He has more uses and a higher wisdom isn't out of the question by reducing cha to 10.

Having said that, the full round activate doesn't bother me because I'm the type to let others engage first (that's what meat shields are for :)) and the fatigue doesn't really affect the samurai either since you can use resolve to purge it.


Did pfs add tengu to free to play for all? Before you had to have some kind of certificate to play tengu.

Grand Lodge

Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
Did pfs add tengu to free to play for all? Before you had to have some kind of certificate to play tengu.

according to the latest PFS rulebook v 5.0

Quote:
Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Core Rulebook. You may also select aasimar, tengu, or tiefling as your character’s race with access to the proper Additional Resources book. Other races are not legal unless the character’s Chronicle stack includes a race boon.


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They added tengu, aasimars and tiefling as free to play (though you need blood of angels/blood of demons for the aasimars). I haven't seen a whole lot of tengu , but PFS is practically the Planar Family Society since the variant aasimars and tieflings are almost invariably the best for what you want to do.

I would pick another build. Two weapon fighting is horrifically underpowered and very disappointing in my experience. PFS has a lot of running around, run and gun style fights, and you don't always get in a full attack. You can be out damaged by a druids pet even if the druid isn't pimping them out. You will not have any less of a character or personality with a more optimal style, nor will under performing add character to your character for you.


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Wait, why are you taking Combat Expertise as your first feat in both builds?

I agree with everyone else that Two Weapon Fighting on a rogue can be very frustrating. Your build exaggerates that: You don't have weapon finesse at level 1, and you aren't taking the TWF feat, so your attack sequence at level 1 is Wakisashi -3 (1d6+1 18/x2), Wakizashi -7 (1d6 18/x2).

You absolutely need the feat if you want to use Two Weapon Fighting.

Rogues tend to have a touch time with Two Weapon Fighting beyond once they start getting into the 4-5 level range because their attack bonuses just don't keep up with AC. I'm thinking Two Weapon Feint isn't going to help much because you're losing one of your highest bonus attacks and most of the time the flat-footedness isn't going to balance that out.

I would suggest going with the single weapon build: Feinting with a two-hander is pretty fun, and as a rogue you will not lose any iteratives by feinting as a move action until 8th level, which is the lion's share of your PFS career anyway.


From what it looks like you want to do, I'd take a look at the Slayer from the playtest of the ACG. The Slayer is a blend of the ranger & rogue for it's abilities.
Only problem going with the Slayer class is that you would need to pick up the ACG when it gets published to keep your character PFS legal.

Silver Crusade

I don't believe the ACG is PFS legal yet. That's the point of a playtest. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Grand Lodge

Akerlof wrote:

Wait, why are you taking Combat Expertise as your first feat in both builds?

I agree with everyone else that Two Weapon Fighting on a rogue can be very frustrating. Your build exaggerates that: You don't have weapon finesse at level 1, and you aren't taking the TWF feat, so your attack sequence at level 1 is Wakisashi -3 (1d6+1 18/x2), Wakizashi -7 (1d6 18/x2).

You absolutely need the feat if you want to use Two Weapon Fighting.

Rogues tend to have a touch time with Two Weapon Fighting beyond once they start getting into the 4-5 level range because their attack bonuses just don't keep up with AC. I'm thinking Two Weapon Feint isn't going to help much because you're losing one of your highest bonus attacks and most of the time the flat-footedness isn't going to balance that out.

I would suggest going with the single weapon build: Feinting with a two-hander is pretty fun, and as a rogue you will not lose any iteratives by feinting as a move action until 8th level, which is the lion's share of your PFS career anyway.

Combat Expertise + Threatening Defender trait means that combat expertise is effectively Dodge once you have attacked in a given round. It is also prerequisite for improve feint and many other feats.

I agree I would like to take TWF earlier than planned but I don't intend to start TWF until I have that feat - single weapon (probably a katana) is how he will start until 3rd.

I have thought about going two hander rogue, that's where the samurai split came from but your right It might be worth re-examining the THF as a pure rogue.

Grand Lodge

Magda Luckbender wrote:
I don't believe the ACG is PFS legal yet. That's the point of a playtest. Please correct me if I am wrong.

PFS Document reads

Quote:
All ten classes (Arcanist, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Slayer, Swashbuckler, and Warpriest), as they are released, are legal for play so long as you have a print or PDF version of the playtest document.

Interesting idea Matt, will take a look at it. thanks

Grand Lodge

Ok so after mulling over this some more heres another build
This time its a Rogue with 3 level dip into Samurai for weapon expertise
The build only Feints with wave strike now and later attempts to blind opponents with dirty tricks.

Rogue (Swordmaster) /Samurai Dip Version
Two Handed Katana
Rogue (Swordmaster) 1
Tengu: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution
Medium, Low-Light Vision (Ex)
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 10
Feats: Combat Expertise
Traits: Swordsmans Page, Threatening Defender
Abilities: Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Sneaky, Gifted Linguist, Swordtrained, Natural Weapon bite 1d3
Feat/Ability Progression:
2 (Sam 1) Challenge 1/day, Resolve, Order (of the Warrior), Iaijutsu Strike 1d6
3 (Rog 2) Evasion, Power Attack, Rogue Talent (Furious Focus)
4 (Sam 2) Honor in All Things
5 (Sam 3) Weapon Expertise (Katana), Brutal Slash, Iaijutsu Strike 2d6, Wave Strike
6 (Rog 3) Sneak Attack 2d6, Trance (Tiger)
7 (Rog 4) Uncanny Dodge, Major Magic (Vanish), Improved Dirty Trick
8 (Rog 5) Sneak Attack 3d6
9 (Rog 6) Rogue Talent (Offensive Defence), Trance (Monkey),Greater Dirty Trick
10 (Rog 7) Sneak Attack 4d6
11 (Rog 8) Improved uncanny dodge, Rogue Talent (Fast Getaway,)Tengu Wings
12 (Rog 9) Sneak Attack 5d6, Trance (Dragon)

Alternatively I’ve thought about replacing Power Attack and Furious Focus at 3rd with Improved Dirty Trick and Blind-Fight which would allow me to take Moonlight Stalker at 5th giving me a +2 attack and damage against anyone I blind with dirty trick or when I use vanish. This moves greater dirty trick to 7th.

You'll notice a lean towards the defensive abilities and feats on this build which I think may be more important than the extra damage capability. I looked at dodge/mobility/whirlwind attack route also but just found it too feat intensive.

I've also moved tiger trance to the first choice as the pounce like ability is too good to pass up when you have a bite as secondary attack.

Lastly now that Samurai is down to 3 levels its becoming increasingly likely that I may drop Samurai altogether for 2 levels fighter, but I still like the feel of this character squaring up to his challenge target, sword sheathed, then slicing them in two with his first attack.

Thoughts?

Grand Lodge

just another thought, if dirty trick is worth taking over feint which I think it is as it benefits my offence and others defence, would it be worth taking a level or 2 in Monk with the Maneuver master archtype instead of samurai?

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