randomroll's attempt to challenge 7 optimized PCs - puzzle fights to address mythic challenges


Wrath of the Righteous


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So I offered to run the next game after we finished a rather enjoyable run of Rise of the Runelords. I have always wanted to have players go the extra planar extra mile and vanquish a demon lord, so I am incredibly excited to be running Wrath of the Righteous. Thank you to the Paizo crew for writing an invigorating chance to allow players to take on the big bad evils.

At this point we've just finished book 1, and haven't gotten into the real crazy stuff that is Mythic. As an avid follower of the forums here, I've seen many of the stories stating how challenging it can become to really have an involving fight with 4 mythic characters, let alone 7 of them. I've also been reading that it's pivotal to adjust the campaign to your players' needs, as suggested by the Devs, so that's what this thread is attempting to address. Alternative solutions to providing compelling (and hopefully challenging) combat situations that subvert normal game mechanics to resolve the imbalances Mythic gameplay has the potential to cause.

I've run hundreds and hundreds of hours of 3.5, and have finished 3 different high level campaigns. The players I've ran for have often been optimized, and I am very used to adjusting on the fly to wacky intensely powerful ideas that the group comes up with. I'm still nervous about providing a strong challenge for my group, but I've found that as long as I put forth the effort to offer a good fight (even if they absolutely trounce it) all 7 of my players have a wonderful time. So, here is my effort to lose every fight to my godly PCs in a way that will keep them interested.

My solution has been to keep the flavor of fights, but adjust game mechanics in brutal and completely non-standard ways. I call these "puzzle fights", as winning the fights is nearly impossible without the PCs finding the key to bypassing the challenge I present. Now, with that said, there is always some off-the-wall solution that a Wizard or Cleric will toss out now and then that throws me and bypasses everything, but I've found that keeping a "yes" attitude makes those players feel incredibly accomplished for having found a neat solution on their own.

With all that said, let me present one of my simpler early puzzle fight examples that I've used against the players (it should be noted this was pre-mythic gameplay, but they're still twinked to the max):

The Abrikandilu demon is pillaging a besieged shop (pg. 28 of Worldwound Incursion) and tearing it apart trying to destroy all the beautiful things. The PCs rush in ready to smash the demon to bits, but on it's turn as a move action it explodes into mirror images (19 of them, to be exact). The players were balking at how to attempt to damage this beast with 1/20 odds of having a chance at hitting it. They tried swinging at it while closing their eyes to try to have a 50/50 shot of hitting it, but the images make noise and chatter, causing them to have to reroll each 50% chance of hitting (but still giving them some chance of hitting it). Three rounds of swinging away at it occured before one of the PCs noticed that it was never attacking the players, but moving from one mirror to the next in the building and taking it's turn to sunder the mirrors apart. The quote "how the heck do we beat this thing, all we have to interact with are these stupid mirrors" was a favorite line of mine at this point, said by our Paladin. The bard rushed over and grabbed a mirror, and they noticed that the images didn't reflect in the mirror and that the demon hissed and shied away from looking into it. They could look into the mirror and swing at the demon with a 50% chance of hitting, which managed to score them a few more hits over the next round before the Abrikandilu sundered that mirror as well. Finally, the wizard grabbed one of the mirrors and forcibly brandished it at the Abrikandilu, which allowed it a saving throw that it failed. The Abrikandilu's images were absorbed into the mirror and it was stunned for a round unable to deal with the sight of it's own reflection. This opening was enough for the melee to smite the demon down and save the shop owners, who were very grateful and suggested the players keep a mirror or two just in case.

I have more examples of scenarios like this, but here's the basics of the fight: with so much melee damage in my party, there's no way the single demon could survive without absolutely absurd defenses. So that's what I gave it. Surmounting those defenses required noticing what it was doing and the environment that was around it, and using those to the player's advantage. The melee felt they did their part, smashing the demon down, and those players that aren't as aggressively inclined has a puzzle to solve to allow the damaging character's their opportunity to defeat the enemy.

This sort of situation allowed the players to feel like it was a very challenging fight, even though they took almost no damage at all. Now, I definitely didn't threaten them with death on this early puzzle fight, but they still walked away from the game session feeling involved and delighted at the interesting situation. So I'm calling that a GM win.

I'll be writing out more puzzle situations, if only to allow my own typing to give me ideas for future fights, but right now there's some HTML coding I'm forced to get back to. A brief summary of the players in my party, and what house rule modifications I've made, will follow this post as soon as I'm able to find the time to do so. I'd also be remiss not to note that many of my puzzle mechanics, for future fights, are inspired by Raid Boss mechanics on various online MMOs, as I've felt some of those fights were absolutely epic.

If you've managed to read this much, please take a moment to comment about any interesting puzzle mechanics or ideas you've had. Are there moments in WoTR that you feel could have been modified to be more interesting? Were there specific fights you felt were "iconic" to the story, that deserve to be truly challenging? Any feedback is welcome.

Thanks for reading this wall of words. +1xp for you!


i don't quite understood this D:


Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
i don't quite understood this D:

Yeah, I suppose the puzzle fights are pretty complicated to explain. The core of what I was attempting to convey is that adding more complex abilities to significant fights, abilities that are "overpowered" but can be removed through intelligent player action, has been a very viable way for me to challenge optimized PCs (even mythic ones). Inspiration for complex fights can be drawn from how online multi-player boss battles have been constructed.

The mechanics I've been coming up with are pretty complicated compared to most Pathfinder battles, now that I think about it, and perhaps the forum isn't a good place to attempt to communicate my ideas, as I didn't seem to articulate them very well. After further consideration I think I might just try to work out these concepts with some Co-GMs that I'm working with instead of the forums.

Thank you for taking the time to read it, Zilfrel. Hoping your having an excellent WotR game.


you're welcome, actually you gave me an idea, with mirrors and this kind of puzzles.

Grand Lodge

I would like to hear more of your ideas, I am running this AP, two players each running two PCs not overly optimized but I have been seeing that if I Don't run multiple enemies or go right after their squishy targets it is hard to do any damage to them.


About to have to run game, but saw that you wanted some more examples Raltus.

Best quick example that I have time to type out was when they ran across the scenario where they were coming across some Crusaders who misguidedly thought that sacrificing a virgin and dipping their swords in her blood would enchant them to kill demons.

I explained to the players that the Crusaders seemed completely out of their minds, and that talking rationally to them might dissuade the knights from following through on their plan. It would require a diplomacy check, which requires 10 rounds of interaction before you can make it.

The puzzle part is that they have to go 10 rounds fighting the knights, preventing them from killing the girl, but cannot deal damage. Dealing damage to a knight increases the DC of the diplomacy check by 4 per time damage is dealt. Base DC is 19.

They thought this was an incredibly fun fight, because they had to learn how to disarm, grapple, reposition, dirty trick, and do anything they could to prevent the knights from doing things, while not just smiting them down as they do most fights.

Grand Lodge

I'm liking these. I have a group of 6 and while they are currently under level I want to bring them back up to par in order to ensure they have the proper spells and such available when they need them, especially since I have only a Sorc and Cleric as spellcasters in the 6.

Please, keep sharing these ideas and if I come up with any durring my adventures to use as a result (I'm further ahead in the campaign than you right now), then I'll share then here for you to think about.

Keep it up! I love seeing new thoughts like this.

Grand Lodge

My party talked their way through the Crusaders, one PC is a Female Cleric of Calistra, it got very funny very quickly when she pointed out that their sacrifice wasn't a virgin.


Raltus wrote:
My party talked their way through the Crusaders, one PC is a Female Cleric of Calistra, it got very funny very quickly when she pointed out that their sacrifice wasn't a virgin.

Haha, brilliant. That sounds excellent.


Having talked with several GM/co-GMs now I realize that puzzle fights are a bit of a divisive issue. It is definitely breaking the pathfinder rules to present most of these puzzles in a challenging way, and that requires a somewhat strong understanding of how to bend the system without breaking it. Some GMs love to stick to exactly what is written, and I have a deep respect for those that can provide a challenge within that framework. I'm having a hard time doing so, so I've taken to using complex puzzle fights. I'd really like to see what other GMs are doing with their own adaptations of fights and how you've added puzzles to make your games more fun. For now, however, here's another example of one of my more complicated puzzle fights.

Substitute for the auto-win ascension fight. My batch of players seemed to greatly enjoy this, but it's definitely not for everybody. Thought I may as well put it out there anyway:

Problem - players have to close the portal that is spewing demons before the demonic army waiting on the other side can storm forth through Areelu's portal. Round 1 has 1 babau appear. Round 2 has 2 babaus appear. Round 3 has 3 babaus appear. Then, on round 4 and every round thereafter, 5 babaus will appear. I rolled one initiative that all the babau's acted on to simplify the order in which PCs/monsters acted.

Tools - the 7 PCs are granted temporary god-like powers, drawn randomly from 3x5 cards that have the letters A-F, not being allowed to draw the same letter twice. The PCs are also granted a mind-link spell and given 5 minutes in real time to look over their abilities and talk with one another. Then the fight begins.

The god-like powers -

3 copies of (A) Vengeance of the Just: +20 ranged attack 100' range, does 100 dmg to a demon ignoring DR. 1/day use normally, but recharges when an adjacent ally uses Light of the Heavens.

3 copies of (B) Rune of the Wardstone: Creates a rune which covers one 5 ft square. Standing on the rune grants +10AC vs demons. 1/day use normally, but recharges when you are granted the Blessing of the Divine.

3 copies of (C) Blessing of the Divine: grants target DR 110/good for 1 round, 30' range. 1/day use normally, but recharges when an adjacent ally kills a demon using Vengeance of the Just.

3 copies of (D) Light of the Heavens: heals target of 150hp, range touch and removes all conditions. Recharges when standing on a Rune of the Wardstone, but dispels the Rune.

1 copy of (E) Banish the Sin Source: Dispels any open gateways as per "dispel magic", but only starts with a +2 on the caster level check (the gateway's DC that's currently open is DC 31). Unlimited use. It is possible to empower Banish the Sin Source by absorbing a Rune of the Wardstone. Using a standard action while standing on a Rune of the Wardstone dispels the rune and grants a permanent +2 to the dispel check. Absorbing a rune, if you have absorbed a rune in the previous round, reduces the absorb to a swift action instead of a standard action.

1 copy of (F) Grace of the Fallen Crusaders: grants all allies within 100' DR 5/good and fast healing 5 for 3 rounds. Unlimited use. Prematurely ending the grace is a full round action that also recharges one target's usage of Vengeance of the Just.

The "solution" to this fight is to have everybody using their powers to empower the other people next to them. The powers of the players charge each other's up in a circle, with two possible ways to get extra usages and one way that takes away usages (but will eventually be the solution to stopping the fight).

Blessing of the Divine <charges> Rune of the Wardstone <charges> Light of the Heavens <charges> Vengeance of the Just <circle repeats here, as it charges> Blessing of the Divine.

To gain extra recharges, the players need to drop some of their protections by dispelling Grace of the Fallen Crusaders to gain an extra Vengeance of the Just, or they can note that Vengeance of the Just recharges ALL adjacent charges of Blessing of the Divine.

Also, recharges get "lost" through Banish the Sin Source as it gets powered up by eating Rune of the Wardstone. It will take 5 absorbs to even have a shot of dispelling the portal. It will take 10 absorbs to have a greater than 50/50 chance (9 or higher) to dispel the portal.

It's also important to note that beyond the mechanics of the fight, I really heavily reinforced the flavor of each ability when the PCs used them. Eventually I let the players describe what the powers did, but I offered some examples to get things started. Here's some examples of what I did:

*Vengeance of the Just was them summoning the swords of a thousand angels which plunged into the chest of the demon then vanished.

*Each rune of the wardstone placed on the ground was the written true word of a goodly concept (like "charity") and when absorbed to empower banish the sin source, granted them a short vision of how destiny had been changed so that the concept came into being (for "charity" they saw a vision of 'Horgus' when he wasn't known by that name, and the player's will reached back through time to shield him when the other children were murdered. Horgus's eventual destiny would be to offer charity to the crusaders because of the kindness shown by the PCs back through time).

*Grace of the Fallen Crusaders granted the party the final thoughts of every crusader who charged into a fight with a demon and perished from the 1st crusader (on 1st use), 2nd crusade (on 2nd use), and so forth.

*Blessing of the Divine allowed them, for one second of time, to embody the essence of a deity. For a split second they were Sarenrae with protective sun fire shooting around them, etc.

*Light of the Heavens healed not only the PCs HP and conditions, but any psychological/emotional/spiritual scars that may have been lingering. A lack of ability to trust others because of past betrayals (as written into a PC's backstory) can be overlooked for a time, as the trauma of those events is seen through the light of true goodness.

*Banish the Sin Source, happened to be being cast by our party's Warpriest of Gorum, so once he finally succeeded in dispelling the portal he grew hundreds of feet tall and crushed the portal shut with his colossal fists, then shrinking back down to normal size.

Anyway, I realize this is an incredibly complicated fight. My players have numerous times said they wanted a real challenge, and this is one of the fights that really seemed to work for that. It was an incredible intellectual puzzle that I was very proud of them for solving, and they had a wonderful time. It really made their ascension into Mythic tiers feel epic to be gods for a little bit, and the symbolism of having to work together to be able to push back Areelu's demonic influence was not lost on them either.

Thank you for anyone who has taken the time to read this. I realize it's not easy to understand. I'm fairly busy these days, but if you have any questions I'll do my best to answer them. And please consider posting your own puzzles for me to check out as well!

Grand Lodge

My PCs just cleared out the last of the Cultist strong holds last night, Faxon did well with 3 Clerics with him and standing at the top of the stairs. They are currently back at Defenders Heart and resting prior to assaulting the Gray Garrison. I have a Paladin (tank) and a Fighter(Cad)/Rogue, a Witch/Ranger and a Cleric. Each fight they seem to surround the enemy and destroy them pretty quickly, I am thinking for the Gray Garrison to look deeply into having the enemy set the stage and make it so they cannot easily surround them.

Also have to find a way to shut and archer down who messes with spell casters hard.

Grand Lodge

Unfortunately my group is in the downtime section of the adventure where we use these brand new and complicated mechanics for things we merely used to just RP out. We wasted a session learning the rules for downtime and implementing them for almost a month in game so far. My PC's not only have several buildings in the works but using the Healing" option have gathered a mass majority of the RP needed for that part of the adventure. Now I just need to coax them out lest they collect it all before their buildings finish. I've come up with a minor puzzle thought for the Jesker part, so we will see if that works out then I'll report it here for you guys.


Xelnagahunter wrote:
Unfortunately my group is in the downtime section of the adventure where we use these brand new and complicated mechanics for things we merely used to just RP out. We wasted a session learning the rules for downtime and implementing them for almost a month in game so far. My PC's not only have several buildings in the works but using the Healing" option have gathered a mass majority of the RP needed for that part of the adventure. Now I just need to coax them out lest they collect it all before their buildings finish. I've come up with a minor puzzle thought for the Jesker part, so we will see if that works out then I'll report it here for you guys.

Excellent! Definitely let me know what you figure out for Jesker, as my group is rapidly approaching that section.

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