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Hey there!
As stated, I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, so my apologies in advance if I botch this up.
Anywho, despite having been gaming for 20 years now, I am just joining my first ever Pathfinder game. I've never played 3.5, or 3. anything really as my old group avoided D&D mostly. After hearing so much about this kind of system, I was super excited to make my first character and experience it all for myself. We have core/base classes and races only, with a preference for Core if possible. Being new I was fine with that, and decided on a Half-Elf Rogue. It's a level one game, and we have a Fighter, a Ranger, and a Cleric as my team.
I had two weeks to prepare for this, and I've spent most of that time trying to learn the various rules of the game, while spending some learning Rogue builds. From reading stuff from here and various guides online, I knew Rogue wasn't going to do as much damage per round as a Barbarian or anything, but I figured I'd be useful for a stealth role, find traps, deal some back stab damage. That would be niche, and I'll do it well. I tried some builds, and found a dex build with a feat called Dervish dance I thought could work for the most part.
The hiccup I'm run into is the half-elf 'multi talented' ability. I didn't want this ability to go to waste, and I've been looking into the other classes. And this has just been a depressing job, as it seems every class does my job better than I do. No matter how I build my rogue, it feels another class is better at my core skills than I am, like I'd be a better Rogue if I weren't actually a rogue.
The game starts up this week now, and I'm no closer to make a decent rogue than I was a week before. The 'best' build I had was a Rogue 1/Bard 1(Dervish of dawn)/ Rogue 3/ Shadow Dancer 2 mess of a build with a BAB so low I doubt I'd hurt anything. I love stealth/shadow stuff, and Arcane casting is a bonus so I thought to combine them all, and I'm so burnt out it looked good or a while. I've looked at so many builds on so many...
I can see from this thread you are getting lots of advice.
I am currently running a home pathfinder game on "google hangout" with some of my old buddies. I'm in North Carolina, and my old friends are in New York City. We played 2nd edition together and some 3rd and 3.5 D&D as well. They haven't had a chance to play for a while, and they are just getting introduced to Pathfinder.
I am running a game with Core Rule Book only. For ability scores, Roll 4d6 assigned as desired re roll 1s. My players have picked:
an Elven Cleric of Iori
a Human (Ulfen) Paladin
a Human Rogue.... (The paladin and rogue are 1/2 brothers)
and a gnome sorcerer.
From a GM's perspective I am quite happy with my player's choices. All the bases are covered.
In this party everyone has a part to play. The party is now 2nd level
In the current adventure, a dungeon crawl through an egyptian themed pyramid, the rogue has been very helpful. He had to deal with 4 traps, either by disabling them, or setting them off on himself. I made sure one of the traps was a big rolling stone ball ! as a nod to Indiana Jones.
Later in the adventure, the party had to face a giant scorpion. Everyone contributed to the fight. The paladin and the rouge flanked. The sorcerer used his ranged magic spells, and the cleric blessed, channeled positive energy, and moved about and healed as necessary. The paladin was torn apart by the scorpion's claws stung, poisoned, and dropped into unconsciousness. After stabilizing the paladin. the cleric stepped in to flank with the rouge. The rogue's sneak attack was what dropped the scorpion. Everyone contributed to the fight.
As a GM, I want to make sure each of the player's character's has a chance to shine and contribute to the success of the party.
I put traps in the dungeon for the rogue to disarm. I thought a scorpion would be a nice desert themed monster to fight. Also the scorpion could damaged by a sneak attack.
I know people say rogues are not useful because everything else can do its job better.
In the game I am running the rogue will be useful. I can tell you this rouge will be dealing with the "grey market" to help sell antiquities for the party. He disables traps, helps with fights and he scouts ahead to report for trouble.
I can also tell you my player is enjoying the game and he is happy with his rogue. Does my party have "optimized" characters? Well the cleric has selective channeling....the rogue trap finding.....etc. It doesn't matter if my players characters are optimized. I tailor the game to my players and their characters.
So I would encourage you to have fun. This is a game. You win by working together with the other players and their characters. So have fun. Try the rogue.....try the bard.....try the barbarian....try whatever you would like to try and have fun.
Good luck with your rogue!
And this has just been a depressing job, as it seems every class does my job better than I do. No matter how I build my rogue, it feels another class is better at my core skills than I am, like I'd be a better Rogue if I weren't actually a rogue.
This is true. One of the better builds for a simple Rogue is "Ranger".
You're encumbered. By about 8lbs.
You're encumbered. By about 8lbs.Then so is his bard build which I used as a template and added nothing to change the encumberance. I can find 8 lbs to remove.
His Strength is 14. He has 32 lbs of light load more than you do.
I was replying to Deadmanwalking. I don't care about other builds posted that I haven't looked at.His Strength is 14. He has 32 lbs of light load more than you do.You're encumbered. By about 8lbs.Then so is his bard build which I used as a template and added nothing to change the encumberance. I can find 8 lbs to remove.
Ah so it is. Will post my Trap Breaker's version soon.
How do you have so many spells known? Your charisma doesn't affect this.Do the math for me. I wanna see these numbers you claim.10 minute build off of Srd
I specifically chose a level before a crap ton of stuff came on line (not the least of which 2 more spells, 3rd and 4th)
** spoiler omitted **...
Human FCB likely.
How are we running Craft Wondrous Item in this comparison? Ultimate Campaign guidelines at 25% more wealth or the full 50% more wealth?
How are we running Craft Wondrous Item in this comparison? Ultimate Campaign guidelines at 25% more wealth or the full 50% more wealth?I was only using it cause of Deadmans build. The builds are like 30k over budget. I priced his gear to about 93-94k and tried to match it.
I don't care how much money you put in as long as it's known and made to match.
Well CWI skews this mightily. For one you can use gold to qualify for CWI, then craft a bunch of junk.
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The alluring trait gives you daze as a SLA once per day to qualify you as well. Master Craftsman no more.
It also qualifies you for arcane strike. So one trait lets a fighter take craft feats and arcane strike.
There's a slightly more irritating way as it's quite good as I'm about to show you. Theres an Ioun Stone that grants you a spell-like ability.
Human Trap Breaker Vivisectionist Alchemist 10
Traits: Deathtouched, Fate's Favored
Str:9
Dex:18(20)(Ability score increases +2)
Con:14
Int:16(18)(+2 Human)
Wis:10
Cha:11
Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
FS: Skill Focus(Perception)
3: Martial Weapon Proficiency(Scimitar)
5: Dervish Dance
7: Craft Wondrous Item
8: Skill Focus(Disable Device)
9: Arcane Strike
Discoveries:
2: Infusion
4: Bleeding Attack
6: Wings
8: Chameleon
10: Enhance Potion
Gear:
+2 Keen Scimitar
Cloak of Resistance +3
Trapspinger's Gloves
+3 Shadow Mithril Chainshirt
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Ring of Protection +1
Wayfinder equipped with Clear Spindle
Silver Spindle(Divine Favor)
87.75k spent
Special Abilities:
Sneak Attack 5d6
Alchemy
Brew Potion
Mutagen
Trapfinding
Skills(83 points):
Consider all abilities at an extra +2 over what is noted to account for Heroism. Dex-based Skills are increased by +2 during Mutagen.
Acrobatics: +18(10 ranks)
Bluff: +10 (10 ranks)
Craft(Alchemy): +18(1 rank)
Perform(Dance): +2(2 ranks)
Perception: +19(24 vs Traps) (10 ranks)
Kn.(Nature/Heal sub): +17 (10 ranks)
Disable Device: +24(29 vs Traps) (10 ranks)
Stealth: +31 (10 ranks)
Spellcraft: +16(10 ranks)
Escape Artist: +18 (10 ranks)
(17 ranks left)
DEFENSES
HP: 77
AC: 25(32 with Mutagen boosting Dex and Barkskin)
CMD: 25
Fort:+12 Ref:+15 Will:+6(Immune to possesions and mental control)
Buffed Saves are: Fort +14 Ref +17 Will +8(+2 vs Mind Affecting)
OFFENSES:
This guy gets completely outrageous with buffs.
Melee Attack Bonus: +14/+9 (+7 BAB +2 Wpn +5 Dex)
Ranged Attack Bonus: +13/+7
Full Buffed Attack Bonus: +25/+25/+20 Breakdown: 7(BAB)+7(Dex)+2(Wpn)+2(Morale)+1(Haste)+2(Invis)+4(Luck)
Buffs: Heroism, Mutagen, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Divine Favor (He can supply himself with all of these)
Damage: 1d6+16+5d6/1d6+16+5d6/1d6+16+5d6
And 10 levels of Alchemist casting.
Dear god silver spindle. I didn't notice it when I was trying to get full caster level on divine favor. Goes so nice with Fate's favored.
Items allowing you to qualify for prerequisites is the dumbest thing ever.
EDIT: I'm still kinda editing it.
Cut out the spindle and the build is back to normal wealth humorously enough.
Alchemists can get the Tumor Familiar Discovery which grants a Familiar.
Can alchemists and bards get familiars? I like the added action economy it comes with for a rogue. I'm fearful of using them as flank buddies, but they can be good wand wielders and assistants.Is the tumor like a real familiar that can give you added action economy?
Yes.
And you can get it at any point. It has no prerequisites.
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Dear god silver spindle. I didn't notice it when I was trying to get full caster level on divine favor. Goes so nice with Fate's favored.
Can alchemists and bards get familiars? I like the added action economy it comes with for a rogue. I'm fearful of using them as flank buddies, but they can be good wand wielders and assistants.
Bards could through Eldritch Heritage, although Alchemist have a discovery for them, as well as getting share spells which has some wonky (yet possibly action economy destroying implications) interactions with extracts. That and Potion Glutton are just...Alchemist are insane.
Bards could through Eldritch Heritage, although Alchemist have a discovery for them, as well as getting share spells which has some wonky (yet possibly action economy destroying implications) interactions with extracts. That and Potion Glutton are just...Alchemist are insane.Dear god silver spindle. I didn't notice it when I was trying to get full caster level on divine favor. Goes so nice with Fate's favored.
Can alchemists and bards get familiars? I like the added action economy it comes with for a rogue. I'm fearful of using them as flank buddies, but they can be good wand wielders and assistants.
*Munches on potions*
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@Deadmanwalking(Clarified)
** spoiler omitted **...
To be clear, the build on the other thread was in specific response to another, and horribly unoptimized so it could do literally everything better than a specific other build. Just for the record.
How are we running Craft Wondrous Item in this comparison? Ultimate Campaign guidelines at 25% more wealth or the full 50% more wealth?I was only using it cause of Deadmans build. The builds are like 30k over budget so my guess is 50%. I priced his gear to about 93-94k and tried to match it.
If you'd kept reading the thread in question, you'd have found the build without CWI (which was discussed in the thread as highly unbalancing), which is probably the right way to do this, since it's gonna skew stuff. I probably should've linked that one, but I was in a hurry. Sorry about that.
I could build you something that beats yours (and will if you insist), but it probably would need CWI, and like I said, that seems bad policy. Why don't you rebuild without that and we'll do this the right way.
I don't care how much money you put in as long as it's known and made to match.
I'm also not a fan of level 10 optimized builds. I like my builds to be organic so they'd actually be playable at level 1. As it stands both mine and Deadmans would be pretty horrible until level 3 due to 8 strength and going the dervish build.
Speaking of Dervish builds, I forgot to put 2 ranks of perform dance into mine, but no biggie.
I'm cool with doing some other level of build. You build a Rogue, I'll build some other class with not only better DPR, but better everything. Maybe not a 1st level build, thinking about it, but a 2nd level build or higher almost certainly.
The Dervish Dance build was in response to a Rogue build that did the same.
Sorry folks, I'm just not buying it. Skills aren't useful? Bard can do "more damage"? Rogues only get sneak-attack on the first round? Not only are these assertions suspect, but if DPR is your primary criterion for deciding which characters provide the most for a game, I'm surprised that you last more than a few sessions without growing terribly bored.
Bardic performance doesn't help you sneak around (unless your opponents are deaf and/or blind I suppose?) But perhaps your campaigns are such that the only opportunity for sneaking is to enter combat? The campaigns I've been fortunate enough to participate in are so much more diverse than that, and every rogue I've played has turned the tide of a campaign more than once.
They do require more creativity than DPR-maxing to play though, true enough, and that means for both the player and the GM.
The idea that "other classes are better rogues than rogues" is an unfortunate by-product of an every-player-for-themselves mentality. It's not a contest. The best parties are the ones that work together, rather than each member attempting solo heroics alongside each other.
Sure, an invisible bard or sorcerer is better than a rogue of the same level at sneaking around. But an invisible rogue is best of all. Rogue or Sorcerer? No! Rogue and Sorcerer.
Right. A Sorc on Haste is not as good as a Fighter on Haste- better yet is the whole party being hasted.
It's nice for every member of the party to be able to fly, but if one or two spellcasters can cast it, that's fin.
T-port is great! Every party needs *A* T-port type caster when they get high enuf level. They don't need four of them.
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Sure, an invisible bard or sorcerer is better than a rogue of the same level at sneaking around. But an invisible rogue is best of all. Rogue or Sorcerer? No! Rogue and Sorcerer.Actually, an Invisible Rogue isn't any better than an Invisible Bard at all.
The Rogue is a LOT better as he can end his Invis with a deadly Sneak Attack. (I guess the bard can hit the foe over the head with his lute, which will cause a nasty bruise....<g>)
Also, many of the bard's ability are useless when invisible. Can't Inspire with Dance, and if you Sing it kinda blows stealth.
Bardic performance doesn't help you sneak around (unless your opponents are deaf and/or blind I suppose?)Bardic Performance doesnt necessarily require you to make any noise. It can just as easily be based off dance or mime or something.
Then, if you're INVISIBLE they can't SEE you, thus no bonus.
Hey, look, I like Bards too, and in most PF AP's, where deadly Gygaxian traps are not a "thing", I think a bard would be a little better, depending on the rest of the party. But if you'd rather play a rogue than a bard- well, sure, why not? You can have fun and contribute.
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Bardic performance doesn't help you sneak around (unless your opponents are deaf and/or blind I suppose?)Bardic Performance doesnt necessarily require you to make any noise. It can just as easily be based off dance or mime or something.Then, if you're INVISIBLE they can't SEE you, thus no bonus.
Hey, look, I like Bards too, and in most PF AP's, where deadly Gygaxian traps are not a "thing", I think a bard would be a little better, depending on the rest of the party. But if you'd rather play a rogue than a bard- well, sure, why not? You can have fun and contribute.
Not all bards are spoony. Everything a Rogue can do, an Archeologist can do better.
Bardic performance doesn't help you sneak around (unless your opponents are deaf and/or blind I suppose?)Bardic Performance doesnt necessarily require you to make any noise. It can just as easily be based off dance or mime or something.
Which is soo compatible with the invisibility that started off this arc of the discussion...
Sorry folks, I'm just not buying it. Skills aren't useful? Bard can do "more damage"? Rogues only get sneak-attack on the first round? Not only are these assertions suspect, but if DPR is your primary criterion for deciding which characters provide the most for a game, I'm surprised that you last more than a few sessions without growing terribly bored.
Bardic performance doesn't help you sneak around (unless your opponents are deaf and/or blind I suppose?) But perhaps your campaigns are such that the only opportunity for sneaking is to enter combat? The campaigns I've been fortunate enough to participate in are so much more diverse than that, and every rogue I've played has turned the tide of a campaign more than once.
They do require more creativity than DPR-maxing to play though, true enough, and that means for both the player and the GM.
You missed the part where Bards are better at skills and out of combat utility. Most optimizers don't care to much about DPR, other then we note that Rogues DPR is lacking due to low accuracy (unlike Bard it has not ability to help boost it's 3/4th BAB) and dependent on Sneak Attack. Most enemies will not allow themselves to be flanked and will move to a position (like a corner) where that is not possible, the same tactic any 10 INT individual would. Bards however can increase the entire parties accuracy and damage (including their own) and Archaeologists get a bonus to hit and damage that stacks well with other things.
Furthermore Bard can cast spells that further increase it's combat abilities such as the long duration Heroism (and Greater Heroism later on), Haste, Good Hope, etc. that the Rogue lacks. Versatile Performer turns the Bards 6+INT skills into significantly higher that by allowing one skill (and a perform) to cover other skills, while Bardic Knowledge makes bards skilled at Knowledge checks without investment. Furthermore, Pageant of the Peacock lets you use Bluff in place of all INT based skill further increasing the Bard's skill lead (and helping out Archaeologists especially). This is before we get into spells that obsolete or enhance skill checks like Aram Zey's Focus (makes regular bards into trapfinders as well), Invisibility, Glibness, etc.
So all in all your defense of Rogue is significantly lacking in light of the above.