Will you be switching to D&D Next when it comes out or will you stay with Pathfinder?


4th Edition

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5E Kobolds are a lot nastier than earlier editions., Dex to hit and damage+advantage on the roll if they are swarming you.

I went to Pathfinder because of 4E and I was not done with 3.5. THat was 5-6 years ago now though and sick of Pathfinder. Ready for something new (or old in OSR type games).

14 years of 3.x= bleah now. Still playing about once a month in some AP but that is mostly for Paizo adventures and other people playing PF not the actual rules themselves.

Pathfinder better than 4E maybe 3.5 and it is a lot hard to answer when I consider 2E and 5E and various clones or even BECMI as a DM.


I see 5E as being too simple, and Pathfinder being too complex. But I do believe it will be easier to remove choices from a game like Pathfinder, or even just playing with the core set of books like PHB, MM, or DMG, then trying to add complexity to 5E. With the later, bounded accuracy, advantage/disadvantage, or other mechanics that are simple but cover a wide range of modifiers will make it hard to add any detail to the game. Unless you don't care about any sense of balance (which I realize is a polarizing topic). From my perspective there is not a version of D&D that meets the sweet spot of controlling complexity at the table. Therefore, you have to make some trade offs regardless of the version of D&D, Pathfinder, or similar game, you want to play that uses D20.

And from a 5E perspective, it is a new game, so it does have the advantage of being something different, but I am afraid it will also have less mileage on the tires before the table gets bored with it.


mikeawmids wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
I'm running Rise of the Runelords this weekend with 5e. Conversion is a snap.
Any tips, re: converting from Pathfinder > 5.e? I've been waiting impatiently for the Dungeon Masters Guide, but if I can set to work on converting all my PF content sooner than December, I would be a happy fellow indeed.

Eyeball it and go. :) 5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)

Beyond that would require more specific questions. Generally speaking, reduce the number of magic items, reduce AC, increase hit points, and when in doubt simplify, simplify, simplify. One or two heavy-hitting powers for a critter are much better than six powers that don't do that much.

A very important piece of the Monster Manual that many people miss is the NPC appendix. These are actually templates designed to be skinned to fit. Need a kobold shaman? Take the Acolyte, make him small, and give him Sunlight Sensitivity and Pack Tactics. That kind of thing.

-The Gneech


John Robey wrote:
mikeawmids wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
I'm running Rise of the Runelords this weekend with 5e. Conversion is a snap.
Any tips, re: converting from Pathfinder > 5.e? I've been waiting impatiently for the Dungeon Masters Guide, but if I can set to work on converting all my PF content sooner than December, I would be a happy fellow indeed.
Eyeball it and go. :)

This, I agree with. Conversions are tricky things and it's best to just eyeball the numbers and monsters.

John Robey wrote:
5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)

This, however, I don't agree with. I don't know too many people that say that 3.x or PF is balanced at anything, beyond the first couple of levels. Especially when compared to 5E.

John Robey wrote:


Beyond that would require more specific questions. Generally speaking, reduce the number of magic items, reduce AC, increase hit points, and when in doubt simplify, simplify, simplify. One or two heavy-hitting powers for a critter are much better than six powers that don't do that much.

In line with this, it's probably easier to just use monsters from the Bestiary / Monster Manual that match up with the ones in the adventure and reflavor things that don't seem to quite fit.

John Robey wrote:


A very important piece of the Monster Manual that many people miss is the NPC appendix. These are actually templates designed to be skinned to fit. Need a kobold shaman? Take the Acolyte, make him small, and give him Sunlight Sensitivity and Pack Tactics. That kind of thing.

Yep, like this ^


Diffan wrote:
John Robey wrote:
5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)
This, however, I don't agree with. I don't know too many people that say that 3.x or PF is balanced at anything, beyond the first couple of levels. Especially when compared to 5E.

That'd open up a big ol' can of worms to get into; I suspect it may be a different idea of what constitutes "balanced." :) I always found building encounters via the XP budget to work very closely to the way intended, but that also meant that there was a pretty narrow band in which the PCs could operate.

5E seems like it would support a much wider range of encounters, thanks to bounded accuracy. (I say "seems like" because I've only been able to run three sessions so far.) That's what I meant by 5E having "looser" balance.

-TG


John Robey wrote:

A very important piece of the Monster Manual that many people miss is the NPC appendix. These are actually templates designed to be skinned to fit. Need a kobold shaman? Take the Acolyte, make him small, and give him Sunlight Sensitivity and Pack Tactics. That kind of thing.

-The Gneech

I went about it another way, I made the kobold leader a winged kobold (marginally tougher than a normal kobold) and gave her one level of Sorcerer. Your suggestion is a good one and I may stat it up to see how it compares to what I hashed together. Thanks. :D


John Robey wrote:
Diffan wrote:
John Robey wrote:
5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)
This, however, I don't agree with. I don't know too many people that say that 3.x or PF is balanced at anything, beyond the first couple of levels. Especially when compared to 5E.

That'd open up a big ol' can of worms to get into; I suspect it may be a different idea of what constitutes "balanced." :) I always found building encounters via the XP budget to work very closely to the way intended, but that also meant that there was a pretty narrow band in which the PCs could operate.

5E seems like it would support a much wider range of encounters, thanks to bounded accuracy. (I say "seems like" because I've only been able to run three sessions so far.) That's what I meant by 5E having "looser" balance.

-TG

Ah, ok. When I hear 'tighter balance' I think more to the point of everyone contributing on a similar level overall towards overcoming challenges. In this regard, I don't think 3E/PF really applies past 5th or 6th level. But going by what you mean of balanced encounters with monsters and the like and how 5E is more open to a lot more versatility, I would agree with you.


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On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?


Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.


As soon as I am finished playing emerald spire, I can't see me running PF again. I may play PF if one of our group wishes to run it, but that is unlikely

Liberty's Edge

TheRavyn wrote:
Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.

That's kind of the beauty of 5e, really. If it was D&D (or PF), it's relatively easy to convert, since you're mostly stripping stuff away.


TheRavyn wrote:
Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.

Just curious, when did you start running Runelords in 5e? I feel like I saw you mention it earlier in the thread (or maybe that was Kthulhu? Darned people having the same avatars :P), but that's a lot of pages to go back through and find that specific post. :P


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To answer the original question, made the switch in January. Couldn't be happier.


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Johnico wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.
Just curious, when did you start running Runelords in 5e? I feel like I saw you mention it earlier in the thread (or maybe that was Kthulhu? Darned people having the same avatars :P), but that's a lot of pages to go back through and find that specific post. :P

I want to say late November, early December. So roughly six months now. We play only 1-2 times a month for about 8 hours per session. 5E combat is so much faster than PF's we really chew through the dungeons pretty fast. I'm thinking another 4-5 sessions to finish the AP, unless things get a lot more complicated than they have been so far.

By the end, the party should be about 15th level, so I'm working on some homebrew stuff to take them the rest of the way to 20th (and possibly beyond). There's six more Runelords out there, after all. And a pretty cool test of a certain sort awaiting them in Absolom :)


TheRavyn wrote:
Johnico wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.
Just curious, when did you start running Runelords in 5e? I feel like I saw you mention it earlier in the thread (or maybe that was Kthulhu? Darned people having the same avatars :P), but that's a lot of pages to go back through and find that specific post. :P

I want to say late November, early December. So roughly six months now. We play only 1-2 times a month for about 8 hours per session. 5E combat is so much faster than PF's we really chew through the dungeons pretty fast. I'm thinking another 4-5 sessions to finish the AP, unless things get a lot more complicated than they have been so far.

By the end, the party should be about 15th level, so I'm working on some homebrew stuff to take them the rest of the way to 20th (and possibly beyond). There's six more Runelords out there, after all. And a pretty cool test of a certain sort awaiting them in Absolom :)

So, about the same frequency of play (in terms of raw hours), but you guys are likely to finish it in something like half the time. Wow. 5e, you're starting to tempt me.

One more question, what would you say is the ratio of goofing off RP vs. progressing through the story for you guys, in terms of time? You've got me curious now.


Johnico wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
Johnico wrote:
TheRavyn wrote:
Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

You're gonna like it. Converting RotRL to 5E is a breeze and we're having a blast. We just wrapped book 4 last week, and are now officially entering "high level" 5E.
Just curious, when did you start running Runelords in 5e? I feel like I saw you mention it earlier in the thread (or maybe that was Kthulhu? Darned people having the same avatars :P), but that's a lot of pages to go back through and find that specific post. :P

I want to say late November, early December. So roughly six months now. We play only 1-2 times a month for about 8 hours per session. 5E combat is so much faster than PF's we really chew through the dungeons pretty fast. I'm thinking another 4-5 sessions to finish the AP, unless things get a lot more complicated than they have been so far.

By the end, the party should be about 15th level, so I'm working on some homebrew stuff to take them the rest of the way to 20th (and possibly beyond). There's six more Runelords out there, after all. And a pretty cool test of a certain sort awaiting them in Absolom :)

So, about the same frequency of play (in terms of raw hours), but you guys are likely to finish it in something like half the time. Wow. 5e, you're starting to tempt me.

One more question, what would you say is the ratio of goofing off RP vs. progressing through the story for you guys, in terms of time? You've got me curious now.

You know, with combat time so much more abbreviated, I think the players get to enjoy "stretching their legs" more so to speak. For instance, they have acquired a town house in Magnimar and a staff of servants, so in between adventures there is usually a bit of down time where the players can enjoy their personal lines a bit. I usually say , "ok you guys have 2 weeks before you need to head out, so I'm going around the table clockwise and you tell me what you want to do". And they get to spend some time researching at the library, carousing in the local bars, making connections with the local temples and smugglers, that sort of thing.

We don't seem to ever have that sense of pressure that we did with PF that of we weren't adventuring every minute of every session, we weren't getting enough done. It definitely makes the characters feel more alive and more a part of the campaign world. It'll be interesting to see how the "endgame" goes once they hit 20th - which PCs will retire, or take high ranking positions in a temple or with the Pathfinders, or even take a shot at achieving godhood?


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Still wanting to purchase the core. No pdf, No sale.

Shadow Lodge

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Sunderstone wrote:
Still wanting to purchase the core. No pdf, No sale.

You could always try out that newfangled way of presenting books they call a "hardcover". I dunno if the format will stand the test of time, but hey, I'm always open to trying crazy new technologies.


I do all my reading on portable devices. iPad/iPhone and the occasional ultrabook.


After all the chat about Old Greyhawk on another thread, I'm going back to 1st and 2nd ed..no 5th for me.

Liberty's Edge

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Black Dougal wrote:
After all the chat about Old Greyhawk on another thread, I'm going back to 1st and 2nd ed..no 5th for me.

Which was always an option from the time 3e came out. Still some do not really like the 'mother may I' that is usually leveled at 1e/2e AD&D.

Still I have been re-reading the 1e DMG cover to cover and I'm always surprised how much of the 'new and cool rules' attributed to the wonderful d20 system were already in 1e and as far as rule went worked fine.

S.

Grand Lodge

I've got 7 games of DnD5e in now and I think I'm going to play both. I tend to get a short game during the week and a longer one on the weekend. I really like the DnD Expeditions concept. It's nice to get a game in when you only have a couple hrs. That said, I do miss some crunch sometimes also. I really think DnD5e and Pathfinder will coexist peacefully. I think they appeal to different crowds.


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Kthulhu wrote:
Sunderstone wrote:
Still wanting to purchase the core. No pdf, No sale.
You could always try out that newfangled way of presenting books they call a "hardcover". I dunno if the format will stand the test of time, but hey, I'm always open to trying crazy new technologies.

I'm with Sunderstone on this. I haven't bought a physical RPG book in 2 years. I'm (very) slowly pairing down what physical books I do have and part of that process is avoiding any new acquisitions.

I get to carry a complete library around with me for just a few gigs of memory.

I'm playing a 5E game and really like it. I would buy a PDF if they sold it, because I very purposely don't want a physical copy. Since they don't offer the product in a format that is useful for me, there's nothing I'm interested in purchasing.


Dustin Ashe wrote:

On second thought, as soon as my Jade Regent campaign wraps, I'm switching to 5e rules but staying with Pathfinder APs. I'll start Rise of the Runelords next.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

I converted Burnt Offerings (book one of Rise of the Runelords) to 5E, but haven't gotten a chance to play it yet in that system. Wasn't very hard at all, surprisingly.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'm curious how you guys do the conversion process.

Do you just take two PF Hill Giants and turn them into two 5e Hill Giants and that works?


Petty Alchemy wrote:

I'm curious how you guys do the conversion process.

Do you just take two PF Hill Giants and turn them into two 5e Hill Giants and that works?

You could probably get away with that as giants are CR5 in 5E and if the PCs are level 6+ they could probably handle that. 1st time I used a hiill giant against PCs was level 5 I don't think I would use one on level 4 PCs (most of the time never say never).


John Robey wrote:

There's a very good article on Alexandrian.net on the "uberness" of casters in 3E, and that it a side effect of the 15-minute workday, which is in turn (or so asserts the article) largely due to the death of the wandering monster table.

What it boils down to is that the wizards' super-blasty ability is intended to be spike damage, rather than reliable output, while the fighter's damage is steady and dependable. The idea then is that the fighter does most of the actual work, and you hold the wizard's big booms back for the most crucial of moments because you don't know when you might need it later.

Unfortunately, when the group can simply blow all of their resources on the first encounter and then rest, that effectively changes the wizard's big boom from a "daily" to an "encounter" ability (to use 4E parlance), thus making it regular damage instead of spike damage.

When the wizard's big boom becomes the norm, then of course the fighter is screwed.

The way to fix that, assuming you don't like the 4E model of "give fighters their own big boom," is to get rid of the 15-minute workday, re-emphasizing the resource management aspect of the game; and I think he's definitely on to something there. But "more, smaller encounters" and things like wandering monsters are somewhat incompatible with the storytelling mode of most contemporary gaming. It works in a dungeon crawl context, but not so much in a "move from set piece to set piece" context.

While I think the reasoning here has historically been how it is viewed I think it actually faces some significant issues. If you view the period between long rests/sleep as something that uses up resources you don't actually benefit, much of the time, in saving your spike damage. Going off early and often is generally just a better option then saving your spike damage. Basically going off early might mean your short on spike damage later but it also means that those earlier encounters where a lot easier and you and your group suffered a lot less (used less of your health resource) in defeating them. If you save your spike damage you might find that by the time you eventually deploy it it is already to late to recover from a situation that has gone south, or, more likely, chances are you find that you have come to the point where you can take a long rest and failed to utilize all your spike damage.

Basically the real trick is not so much in saving your spike damage (and this applies to things like save or die spells etc. for this exercise I'm saying that this is a form of spike damage) but in saving it at the point when you have so overwhelmed the current opposition that the encounter is no longer capable of doing any meaningful amount of damage to you or your party - at that moment it makes sense to stop using spike damage and saving it for the next encounter but until that moment your better off using all available spike damage as fast as possible.

Basically speaking it is better to make the first three encounters into complete cake walks and have a hard time on the 4th encounter then to have a harder time in all encounters but still maybe have some juice left for that 4th encounter because who knows if there is even going to be a 4th encounter and furthermore your probably better off mathematically if the first 3 encounters where a cake walk and you come into the 4th encounter short on spike damage but high on health resources versus coming into the 4th encounter with more spike damage but much lower health resources.

Note of course this is all just theory - depending on the system in use and even the design of the adventure the basic theory might not be valid. Nonetheless at least on a theoretical level one does not usually want to save spike damage.


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Petty Alchemy wrote:

I'm curious how you guys do the conversion process.

Do you just take two PF Hill Giants and turn them into two 5e Hill Giants and that works?

In Burnt Offerings there's only a handful of encounters that need rebalancing, namely the ones with 4+ goblins at level 1. In 5th-edition, goblins add their Dexterity to their attack and damage, which makes them considerably more potent. So, you gotta keep an eye out for some of that stuff. Page 82 of the DMG includes the XP Thresholds table, which is useful for determining how many creatures a party can typically handle.

When it comes to converting monsters that aren't in the MM, or those with class levels, I don't bother with obsessing over the details and getting everything right; I just try and keep the spirit of the character intact. For example, with Nualia, I gave her spellcasting as a cleric and invented a couple abilities to replicate her domain features, though they very different from the ones she has in PF. One such ability allows her to treat a successful attack as a critical hit (up to 3 times per day), but in doing so she drops her guard and allows her fury to overtake her, granting her opponents advantage on each of their attack rolls against her until the end of her next turn. Further playing with the idea that she's a vengeful character, I gave her a reaction attack so that she can strike back against those that hit her in melee. So, obviously not a straight conversion, but rather a new and refreshing version of the character.

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