Seeking advice on rules combo


Advice

Sovereign Court

The combo:

A small cat animal companion knowing the weapon finesse feat and wearing an amulet of mighty fists +1 (using the bonus for agile weapon quality vice +1 to hit/dam). Rounding out to a 22 Dex at 4th level (aspect of the tiger) and rocking a +7 (+9 with power attack) damage on possibly 3 attacks per round.

Seems all perfectly legit RAW.. although it was a surprise to me that spending 5,000 on a +1 amulet still allowed for agile enhancement to natural weapon(s), even when you have 3 primary attacks.

So, questions. For those of you who believe that game balance takes a backseat to lolz, this thread isn't for you.

For those of you who are still with me, what advice do you have for me? On one hand, I could just ignore it and trust that the uberness won't scale with level. In the meantime so long as no one else at the table shows signs of feeling like a 5th wheel out of the limelight there's no foul, right?

That brings me to the combination of agile + power attack. There's nothing saying they CAN'T work together, yet there's also no reason the GM has to say they HAVE TO work together. PFS OP rules still allow the adjudication of rules interactions, and agile does say that the user is using dex in place of strength, and because PA is based on a STR prereq it can be ruled to count as 'using strength', ergo cannot be used in concert with agile enhancement.

Would making such a ruling be fair or just look like sour grapes? Even if fair, would it really be worth the risk of alienating the player b/c even with PA the performance-beyond-level-appropriateness will only be extended rather than perpetuated?

Another tack is perhaps disallowing the animal-intelligence cat from preferring to use the agile enhancement over the default +1 to hit/dam granted by the magic item?

Grand Lodge

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Would making such a ruling be fair or just look like sour grapes?

Sour grapes. Nothing here actually indicates the rules support that call.

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Another tack is perhaps disallowing

No it is not. Agile is a weapon quality. It is always on, not activated.

This doesn't even seem like the worst thing they could do with the AC.

Sovereign Court

FLite wrote:
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Would making such a ruling be fair or just look like sour grapes?
Sour grapes.

Thanks for the feedback.

FLite wrote:
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Another tack is perhaps disallowing
No it is not. Agile is a weapon quality. It is always on, not activated.

Actually, in this context (a +1 amulet of mighty fists), agile is a quality you might reasonably be said to have to actively choose to have instead of a +1 to hit/damage.

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This doesn't even seem like the worst thing they could do with the AC.

Oh that's a given, but at the same time it has nothing to do with the price of tea in china.

Liberty's Edge

I can definitely appreciate what you are trying to do. I commend you for being conscious of how having an overpowered character can affect a table.

But if you stop investing in the cat now, as you gain levels there will be a moment when the cat won't be able to outshine the other characters.

Silver Crusade

One thing appears to be wrong.

At 4k ( and its 4, NOT 5, the cost got reduced awhile back) the amulet is EITHER +1 OR agile, it isn't both.

This soon gets to be an issue because of DR. Animal companions have relatively few ways of getting past DR. Greater magic fang is wonderful if they own a druid, of course :-).

But yeah, animal companions are very powerful at lower levels. They get somewhat less so at about level 8 or so (later than that if various shenanigans are going on to raise their hit dice) but they remain quite valuable up to and past seeker level


Greater magic fang will only get you through magic DR unfortunately. Its probably the biggest downside to the agile amulet.

Silver Crusade

Agreed. Although its pretty late play when you can afford 36k for a straight +3 amulet to start getting by some DRs.

Being an Aasimar and getting celestial animals can help a lot, of course

In higher level play you often pretty much need to spend the spells and actions to buff the animal to make it effective. When buffed, it again becomes a massive force to be reckoned with. And buffing a str based animal is a lot more effective than a Dex based one (at least, using the druid spell list which is where my experience cones from)


pauljathome wrote:
Agreed. Although its pretty late play when you can afford 36k for a straight +3 amulet to start getting by some DRs.

Having a velociraptor stealing your druids lunch money makes for a heck of a savings plan though :)

Usually you only need 1 round of combat buffing. My druid would cast barkskin and airwalk at the start of the dungeon, then either bulls strength (for a moderate combat) or strong jaw (for the big bad). If it was still alive and posing a threat then you animal growth from a distance.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

pauljathome wrote:
Being an Aasimar and getting celestial animals can help a lot, of course

Nothing about the celestial template helps with DR. The smite gained by the template give a bonus to damage and attack rolls, it does not function as a paladin's smite evil.

Grand Lodge

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FLite wrote:
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Another tack is perhaps disallowing
No it is not. Agile is a weapon quality. It is always on, not activated.

Actually, in this context (a +1 amulet of mighty fists), agile is a quality you might reasonably be said to have to actively choose to have instead of a +1 to hit/damage.

No. the choice of +1 or agile is made when the amulet is purchased.

Just like you don't buy a +2 short sword and get to use it either as a +2 short sword or a +1 flaming short sword.

If it had to chose which way to use it, the cat could not use it as all. (Pets can't activate items.)


Michael Eshleman wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Being an Aasimar and getting celestial animals can help a lot, of course
Nothing about the celestial template helps with DR. The smite gained by the template give a bonus to damage and attack rolls, it does not function as a paladin's smite evil.

Which smite evil do they have?

The Exchange

Michael Eshleman wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Being an Aasimar and getting celestial animals can help a lot, of course
Nothing about the celestial template helps with DR. The smite gained by the template give a bonus to damage and attack rolls, it does not function as a paladin's smite evil.

What he said. The extra damage helps by pass DR but does not duplicate the Paladins ability to ignore DR.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
deusvult wrote:

The combo:

A small cat animal companion knowing the weapon finesse feat and wearing an amulet of mighty fists +1 (using the bonus for agile weapon quality vice +1 to hit/dam). Rounding out to a 22 Dex at 4th level (aspect of the tiger) and rocking a +7 (+9 with power attack) damage on possibly 3 attacks per round.

Yep, cats are good at shredding things. It's about all they're good at, so expect it to be what's focused on. Par for the course.

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Seems all perfectly legit RAW.. although it was a surprise to me that spending 5,000 on a +1 amulet still allowed for agile enhancement to natural weapon(s), even when you have 3 primary attacks.

Bear in mind that this is the whole reason the amulet costs more per bonus than a weapon: because its whole purpose is to enhance multiple attacks. Working as intended.

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So, questions. For those of you who believe that game balance takes a backseat to lolz, this thread isn't for you.

This line right here takes your post from "legitimate questions" right across the line to "being a jerk". Stop it.

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For those of you who are still with me, what advice do you have for me? On one hand, I could just ignore it and trust that the uberness won't scale with level. In the meantime so long as no one else at the table shows signs of feeling like a 5th wheel out of the limelight there's no foul, right?

Correct. Many GMs make the mistake of assuming that a high-damage character (or pet) must surely be draining the fun from the whole table. Sometimes that's the case, but often it's not. One of my favorite past sessions was when we all went underwater and the party druid turned into an octopus (nine attacks per round!) and we all basically just followed around behind her laughing our heads off while she pulverized everything in the scenario. People had FUN.

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That brings me to the combination of agile + power attack. There's nothing saying they CAN'T work together, yet there's also no reason the GM has to say they HAVE TO work together.

Both agile and Power Attack work how they say they work, and the result of that is that they can work together. The rules don't have to list every single combination of feats/abilities and tell you whether they can be used together or not; the rules tell you HOW to look at various combinations and see how they work.

The GM is supposed to utilize common sense in their adjudications. Seeing that Power Attack doesn't explicitly mention agile (or vice-versa) and deciding that means they don't necessarily work together despite the rules making it crystal clear they should, is the OPPOSITE of common sense.

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PFS OP rules still allow the adjudication of rules interactions, and agile does say that the user is using dex in place of strength, and because PA is based on a STR prereq it can be ruled to count as 'using strength', ergo cannot be used in concert with agile enhancement.

No. This is ridiculous. See above.

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Would making such a ruling be fair or just look like sour grapes? Even if fair, would it really be worth the risk of alienating the player b/c even with PA the performance-beyond-level-appropriateness will only be extended rather than perpetuated?

This would look like sour grapes, because that's exactly what it is. You are deliberately looking for an excuse to shut down someone whose fun you disapprove of, rather than looking at the rules and making legitimate adjudications as to how they work.

The GM's job of "adjudicating" the rules means "filling in the gaps where the rules are unclear", not "finding ways to get to the results you personally prefer".

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Another tack is perhaps disallowing the animal-intelligence cat from preferring to use the agile enhancement over the default +1 to hit/dam granted by the magic item?

It's a static effect; the cat doesn't have the ability to choose not to use it.


Hear hear for octopi!

When a powerful character saves the party because they use something like this, it's epic. Now, if the character was able to do that all the time, and DID do it all the time, it might kill fun for other players. It's usually better to be conservative with your uber-powers, at least until you know your group. Then you can pull it out in a tough spot for that "I am not left-handed!" moment that is usually cause for a standing ovation. BUt, sitting and watching your cat shred everything in site just because it can is not always what people came out for. If you're outperforming the table, have your cat "guard the rear" and let the other characters have something to fight as well.

RAW, power attack and agile work together, although I do agree there is *some* basis for looking at it otherwise based on the fluff text. It's definitely not in the "ridiculous" category for me

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Now, if the character was able to do that all the time, and DID do it all the time, it might kill fun for other players. It's usually better to be conservative with your uber-powers, at least until you know your group.

Exactly. You (that is, whoever the GM is) wait and see whether or not the group dislikes it, then if so, you address it as a behavior issue ("Hey, let the other people play") rather than by deliberately looking for ways to slant the rules into illegalizing the build; the latter is what this thread is seeking a blessing to do, which is inappropriate for PFS.

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Then you can pull it out in a tough spot for that "I am not left-handed!" moment

+6 Nerd Cred Achieved

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RAW, power attack and agile work together, although I do agree there is *some* basis for looking at it otherwise based on the fluff text. It's definitely not in the "ridiculous" category for me

If a feat with a prereq of STR 13 is treated as effectively boosting STR-based damage and therefore fails to stack with agile, then I guess the Dodge feat, with prereq DEX 13, should be interpreted as effectively boosting my DEX and in turn boosting my initiative, Reflex, etc, and giving my agile weapons +1 damage, right?

Not everything that's vaguely "more RAWR!" is treated the same, not everything that's vaguely "more ZING!" is treated the same, and there's no reason that a "RAWR!" and a "ZING!" can't work together.

Silver Crusade

Someone has cast banishment on this thread!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The Fox wrote:
Someone has cast banishment on this thread!

"Advice" is certainly an interesting choice. I could see Rules ("Is there a way to interpret this as X?") or Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew ("What if it worked like this instead?"), but Advice seems a bit weird.

Scarab Sages

deusvult wrote:

That brings me to the combination of agile + power attack. There's nothing saying they CAN'T work together, yet there's also no reason the GM has to say they HAVE TO work together. PFS OP rules still allow the adjudication of rules interactions, and agile does say that the user is using dex in place of strength, and because PA is based on a STR prereq it can be ruled to count as 'using strength', ergo cannot be used in concert with agile enhancement.

Or, you could use Piranha Strike, the Finesse weapon user's Power Attack.

Piranha Strike

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