Captain Beaky and his band |
No, with coupled arcana you can do a swift action as listed and then another action using mythic as long as its as fast or faster than the original action.
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Whenever you spend a standard action, move action, or swift action to activate an arcane school power, bardic performance, bloodline power, hex, or magus arcana, you can also activate an ability that uses mythic power as a free action. The mythic ability you activate must require the same action type as the other ability you activated or faster (a swift action is faster than a move action, and a move action is faster than a standard action).
So when I use, say arcane accuracy which is a swift, I can then use a swift or faster action using mythic as a free - basically 2 swifts.
Example. Arcane Accuracy followed by Fleet Charge.
Sebastian Hirsch |
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:eah, but didn't you post in your thread, that your players use if for offensive means, like a successful dispel check? I think that players should have to consider, to save a couple uses of mythic power, for the time when the excrement hits the windmill.They also use it for stuff like dispel checks, but often enough too for important saves.
If I had to give a guess, surge in my game gets pulled out for, in order of common appearance:
1. "Can I nudge that attack roll/SR check just a little higher?"
2. "I miiiiiight be able to make this save if I surge."
3. "I absolutely, positively need to ace this skill check."
4. Anything else
I think you could argue, that those are good things, if the players feel the need to use their immediate/shift actions for those things. This should in theory decrease their damage output a bit.
No, with coupled arcana you can do a swift action as listed and then another action using mythic as long as its as fast or faster than the original action.
.
Whenever you spend a standard action, move action, or swift action to activate an arcane school power, bardic performance, bloodline power, hex, or magus arcana, you can also activate an ability that uses mythic power as a free action. The mythic ability you activate must require the same action type as the other ability you activated or faster (a swift action is faster than a move action, and a move action is faster than a standard action).So when I use, say arcane accuracy which is a swift, I can then use a swift or faster action using mythic as a free - basically 2 swifts.
Example. Arcane Accuracy followed by Fleet Charge.
Yeah a magus pretty much needs coupled arcana, other classes don't need it quite as much.
Zeqiel |
Has anyone thought of just maybe using the Terrain and having the PCs make survival checks and such to be even able to stay in the Abyss and world wound for longer then a few hours at a time?
What about having them make hourly checks to resist the corruption of the abyss? Each time they fail then gain negatives to saves and start to lose some sanity, they can't "cure" this because it is the Abyss itself that is perverting them, They can leave the abyss for 24 hours to rest and be tended too. The longer they stay the more likely they are to be corrupted. Also each step into one of said Demon Lords Citadels doubles the saves they have to make.
We all know that the Demon lords are watching them come, make them more prepared so by the time they get to them they are weakened or they are so low on resources rock-et-tag becomes something they don't want to play.
Also if they bring NPCs with them (no idea if people's parties did) have them roll 2 saves per hour as they aren't "Mythic" and can't just resist such power. Irabeth fallen and turned into a Anti-Paladin would be hard on the party and on her wife.
Raltus, now that we're at the cusp of the final encounter I feel comfortable slipping back here. There's only one thing left to fight, and I know the GM is modding the encounter heavily as is...
I like what you're suggesting conceptually, but not necessarily exactly in mechanics. However, in several parties, spells like Mass Planar Adaptation would be effectively automatic spell inclusions due to the sheer number of planar encounters the parties have had. I know that from about the middle of book 4, Planar Adaptation (and Mass when it became available) was cast on the party constantly. By the numbers, that spell negates this sort of negative effect and a competent wizard at this level should be at least considering using it.
NobodysHome |
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Happy to report that Book 3 is still going well for us. The players encountered the Pauper's Thighbone-wielding babau (hilarious), a bebilith (the less said about a creature that failed two DC 19 Will saves AND performed a triple fumble on its first action, the better), The Plague, and the Family Crypt.
Honestly, the fighter is really starting to handcuff himself. He started taking Foe Biter, realized it would break things, and chose something else. He says he's now having trouble actively avoiding things that make his damage even stupider than it already is. So in mythic, it seems like you have to have players who actively choose to take non-damaging options. It's not enough to "non-optimize". You have to actively nerf yourself.
However, the players are trying their best not to break things, and so far it's somewhat working.
The babau died because it was a babau. The bebelith was too busy fumbling and being blind to be a serious test of anything other than the players' resistance to giggling fits.
The Plague was a pathetic encounter, I must admit. A bunch of CR 6-8 mooks against a 9th-level party with mythic tiers? Again, I question the CR level more than the mythic abilities. One fireball and one Holy Smite dropped half The Plague's party, and her attempt to use Obscuring Mist to get away was cut short by another Holy Smite that filled the entire area. When you have one caster dropping 6d6 lightning bolts against a party dropping 9d6+ fireballs and 5d8 Holy Smites, the outcome is really never in doubt.
So the only "serious" encounter was the family crypt. I can see this as being a TPK-in-waiting for a stupid party that doesn't use Death Ward. I had all the critters waiting in ambush and using their most effective level drains from cover.
It would have been an utter disaster for the party... except they all had Death Ward up so none of the level-draining nonsense did anything. The fighter did a classic crit-crit-hit to end the BBEG.
So on the one hand, I did very little damage (the fighter was the worst off at maybe 70 hit points down). On the other hand, if the party hadn't been well-prepared, it would have been a slaughter.
So my week's report? So far in Book 3, it's way better than I was expecting -- the players LOVED the Kingmaker-style exploration, and we'll be doing another couple of sessions this weekend.
I'll report again next week, just because I can't resist typing too much.
Ssyvan |
Ssyvan wrote:Just wondering if anyone is running a group similar to mine (so I know whether to expect these issues or not). I have 5 PCs, 15 point buy, Average Starting Wealth, no traits, and slow xp track. So far we're having a good time, and they had to retreat from the mongrel lair and rest.
It is hard for me to gauge whether or not they'd be considered "optimized" characters or not.
EDIT: Would probably help if I provided more information regarding the party make up.
Dwarven Cleric of Torag
12, 12, 15, 10, 16, 11
Human Ranger (Favored enemy Outsider(Evil)) - Ranged Weapon Track
13, 16, 10, 12, 12, 12
Half-Elf Barbarian - Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
17, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
Gnome Summoner
8, 12, 15, 14, 10, 16
Tiefling Rogue
14, 15, 12, 13, 12, 10I can give more information if anyone wants it. We just got out into Kenebres and they've just hit level 2 (So they're a level behind of what the AP expects)
This sounds like a very well balanced party with very reasonable and balanced stats. I would be interested to hear some updates on how you guys do as you progress into the Mythic portions of the campaign and what, if anything you have to change to challenge your party.
They sound like an interesting group, and I wish you luck!
Not to double post, but I've updated The Worldwound Incursion thread with a short summary of the ending part of the first book. Wasn't sure if you were interested still!
magnuskn |
So in mythic, it seems like you have to have players who actively choose to take non-damaging options. It's not enough to "non-optimize". You have to actively nerf yourself.
That is one of the best summations of one the main problems with mythic adventures I've read. Take note, people who say that they don't understand why so many GM's are having problems with Wrath of the Righteous! :)
Old Guy GM |
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I've thought of something (at least I think I did, I haven't seen it anywhere else) that I am going to try as a limiter to the use of multiple mythic/legendary points in a round. I discussed this with my group, and we agree it's worth a go. On the surface: it seems simple to adjudicate, has the limits I think will help, and doesn't make the players feel like they are being handicapped.
Make each (and every) use a of a mythic/legendary point a swift or immediate action. If it is not already defined, the swift/immediate classification will be based on the intent of the ability.
Each PC has one swift/immediate action per round = to half their Mythic Tier, rounded up.
We started this last week, but it didn't come up except once, for the legendary ranseur-wielding fighter (12 Ftr, 4 Champ) who did unreal amounts of damage under the RAW. Last week he merely did great amounts, but was happy with what he did, as was I.
More to come on this.
Piccolo Taphodarian |
That's what e-mails are for.
I wonder what people think of my suggestions for fixing Mythic (and critical hits).
Critical hits and no save spells pretty much are the main reason this game is amazingly hard to run at high levels. Monsters do not scale with PC damage and capabilities.
Piccolo Taphodarian |
Our group is level 9/mythic 3 now. We're an optimized group but we don't go about trying to find exploits and tear them wider. Our makeup is light on spell-slingers, so most combats become a tangled melee mess (which is fun).
We just finished the fight against the Mythic Hag.
Frankly, I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The fight was hard. We pretty consistently feel like we're scraping through by the skin of our teeth. The biggest complaint we have is that each round tends to take a really long time at this point because we're fighting seven different kinds of enemies at a time, and there's a lot of them. (this is true for high level games no matter what, so its not unique to this AP)
The only thing I know of that our GM does to boost things is Maximize the HP of all the enemies. (that's pretty standard in our games)
If you want to enjoy this AP, talk to your players before hand and have everyone agree to stick to middle-power concepts.
If you have a party that reads like a who's who of "pushing the powerlevel" concepts (Heavens Oracle, Scarred Witch Doctor, Archer Paladin, Pouncebarian, Wild Caller, etc) you're going to have a "failed" AP no matter which one you choose.
The AP is designed for groups that actually want to be challenged, not for those who want to sandbag the whole story and steamroll the plot. If that's what your group is doing, talk to them, and rebuild the characters so that they aren't as optimized. If your players complain about being nerfed, maybe pathfinder isn't the system for you. It's rather breakable to those that want to break it.
This is not how APs should be designed...not how games should be designed really. If you have certain concepts like the Pouncebarian so much better than any other option, you have failed as a game designer. There are a lot of examples of failure that have not been limited such as the Pouncebarian. At high level this class makes every other melee character nearly obsolete and the only reason it hasn't been brought down to earth is because so few players in Pathfinder reach a high enough level to make high level problems important for Paizo to correct.
Piccolo Taphodarian |
Glad this thread exists. I've been looking over the Mythic rules, it's going to be crazy hard to run.
I plan to use monster design that is far beyond the pale of the rules. I plan to send hordes against the PCs, literal hordes of demons. If the encounter says 2 to 4 demons, I may send 20 to 50 or more. I plan to give main NPC and monsters insane hit points levels. Big brutal enemies will have 5,000 to 10,000 hit points. NPCs will have hit points in the thousands as well that I will consider "The power of evil sustaining them."
I stopped using rules as anything other than guidelines years ago for all versions of these types of RPGs. Games like these are not designed to provide a challenge for players that take an active interest in making strong PCs. I always have to increase enemies because game designers follow a design philosophy for enemies, especially large physical creatures, that makes them trivial. I've been doing this since 1st edition. High level play in D&D/Pathfinder has never been designed well.
magnuskn |
Well, the problem you are going to have with 20-50 opponents in one encounter is that those encounters are going to be crazy difficult (and long) to run, both for you as a GM and for the players as well. I wish you the best.
Tangent101 |
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Piccolo, there is actually a mechanism by which you can do this that helps simplify things a bit. Use the Troop template that was created in "Rasputin Must Die" whereas 8-12 small- or larger-sized creatures are considered one uber-entity. Thus you can have 40-50 monsters... but they are treated as 3-4 monsters with higher hit points, armor class, and damage output.
Orthos |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you don't have Rasputin Must Die! (or don't want to look at it because spoilers), you can find an example of the Troop subtype on the blog here.
There's also this thread, where Brandon Hodge (the guy who wrote RMD) explains a bit about how to make a Troop from scratch.
Arnwyn |
Piccolo, there is actually a mechanism by which you can do this that helps simplify things a bit. Use the Troop template that was created in "Rasputin Must Die" whereas 8-12 small- or larger-sized creatures are considered one uber-entity. Thus you can have 40-50 monsters... but they are treated as 3-4 monsters with higher hit points, armor class, and damage output.
Subtype, not template.
I really, really, really, really, REALLY want a troop template.
(Did I mention how much I'd like one? Very disappointing that there isn't one by this point. Even 3.5 did it better [again] by starting things off with the mob template...)
Piccolo Taphodarian |
I won't need to use the troop templates. The PCs will do enough damage to kill things in one to two hits. I tend to run a fewer number of hard encounters. I figure the casters will also be able to kill a large number with AoE hits.
I usually calculate average damage output per round against a given AC taking into account factors like Paladin Smite, crits, and buffs, then determine how long I want the fight to last to fill epic, that will give me the hit point and saving throw number I need to make that happen.
Given the way these games are built, it is impossible to follow the rules as is and challenge the PCs at high level. It's mostly impossible even at lower levels. The game becomes mostly trivial for parties at around level six or seven save for the occasional key missed save the way module makers design encounters. The single enemy with a PC class with a small number of weaker support minions rarely poses a challenge.
These games become far too bloated with the need for companies to churn out product. D&D/Pathfinder has never spent much time making sure the higher end came was very playable. The number progress breaks down fairly early. I've learned to use my own mathematical estimates to challenge players.
Tangent101 |
If you truly want to sic 40 or so individual monsters on them, go right ahead. If you think they won't quickly kill them off despite the huge number? Well, you'll probably end up surprised.
Here's the thing about the Troop "template" - you are the one who builds the encounter. As such you could give 12 demons in one "troop" 2,000 hit points if you so desired. There are no set rules so you can do what you want to make sure it's a threat to your group.
Here's the thing. That CR 11 troop on that link is made up of 9-12 level 6 fighters. It can't be flanked, it can't be hit by single-target spells. It doesn't make attack rolls - it automatically damages, much like a swarm. Thus ultra-high armor class is useless.
It will be quite the unexpected surprise for your party.
Tangent101 |
Having recently sicced 16 regular ogres and one 6th level fighter ogre on Black Magga (as a thought experiment and in preparation for my group's attack on Skull Dam before the dam breaks)... numbers don't always matter. If someone needs a 20 to hit, then even having 40 of those attacking will just mean the target gets nicked a couple of times while wading through the bloodbath.
Ssyvan |
Having recently sicced 16 regular ogres and one 6th level fighter ogre on Black Magga (as a thought experiment and in preparation for my group's attack on Skull Dam before the dam breaks)... numbers don't always matter. If someone needs a 20 to hit, then even having 40 of those attacking will just mean the target gets nicked a couple of times while wading through the bloodbath.
Don't forget about aid another, they can use that to gain a stacking +2 to hit. Though I'm not sure Ogres (unless commanded by that fighter) would actually do this.
Raltus |
I want to use the "troop" subtype and I have read those links a few times now, just one questions. How do I go about it? It is so vague and I feel like I might make something too powerful. Any advice would be helpful.
I am not doing mass combat we just took South shore in Dreznen and my PCs have blockaded the Eastern bridge cutting off what survived of the Cultist/Tiefling Armies with the demon army in the warehouse district. I want to try the troop combat to see how it feels.
NobodysHome |
Since I just *finally* updated my journal (hopefully with another this weekend), I figure I should update here as well.
I'm about 1/3 of the way through Book 3 (Demon's Heresy) and still haven't had the "off the rails" problems, but I suspect that's because my fighter is being kind and taking underpowered feats, and my GMNPC cleric has been chastised one too many times for ending fights with mythic Holy Smite so now she's using less "fight-ending" spells.
But we're still seeing a bunch of under-CR'ed encounters for a group of 4 ninth-level PCs with three mythic tiers. The Plagued One was a joke, mainly stemming from the idea that a CR 8 BBEG plus a few CR 6 lackeys made for a CR 11 encounter. Similarly, only the witchfire of the Foul Coven provided any real threat (though I'm happy to report I actually forced a PC to save against Baleful Polymorph, which is better than most of my covens). I'm going to be out-and-out embarrassed to run the CR 10 Derakni when the group has a perpetual Circle of Protection from Evil up (swarms? What swarms?), and Wintersun Hall is sad.
On the other hand, the shachath demon (they all referred to her as a "cha cha demon", which I found delightful) was a wonderful "Save or Suck" moment and had the whole party on the edge of their seats. Skulgrym and the Fallen Fane were both won by good tactics and the right spells at the right time, so the PCs felt good about those fights. And I'm hoping tonight's encounter with the woundwyrm will be epic, though the party will undoubtedly surprise me with something nasty.
So I guess the main reason I haven't been posting has been that it's more of the same: The fighter isn't using Foe Biter or mythic Vital Strike so he's not one-shotting things. The cleric has stopped using mythic Holy Smite so she's no longer blinding swarms of enemies. And the appropriately-CR'ed enemies (where individual creatures are CR 10 or above) are doing well enough that I have no complaints.
Reminds me (and this continues the previous conversation) of when I attacked the Sklar-Quah with an army of 100 orcs, 20 orc sergeants (3rd level), 10 orc lieutenants (5th level), an orc chieftan (8th level) and shaman (8th level), a couple of giants, and a young red dragon. This was at the end of Curse of the Crimson Throne's A History of Ashes, so the party was only 10th level.
It is utterly demoralizing watching what high-level casters do to swaths of low-level enemies. Two rounds in all the foot soldiers were smouldering wreckage, the dragon had run into a Hasted paladin Smiting Evil with a composite longbow and was out-and-out dead (yes, of COURSE he crit), and the remaining troops were trying to organize a retreat.
In Pathfinder, numbers aren't everything.
Arnwyn |
I want to use the "troop" subtype and I have read those links a few times now, just one questions. How do I go about it? It is so vague and I feel like I might make something too powerful. Any advice would be helpful.
That's just the thing - it's essentially just making up a brand new monster (and then giving it the (Troop) subtype at the end).
That's why I'd like to see a Troop template of some sort that makes this job a lot easier. A 'unit' of x number of yeti? Got you covered. A 'unit' of y number of 5th-7th level gunslingers? Get you covered there, too.
*sigh*
Tangent101 |
Heh. It also depends on where the fight takes place. While this is a (probably 2nd edition?) AD&D game, I once caused my group (five players and the NPC) which were probably 10th level or so to flee from a group of Drow elves... none of which were even within two levels of the group.
The Drow consisted of probably 20 2nd level drow fighters firing poisoned hand crossbows from darkness, a couple mid-level drow warriors to hold up the kill-anything-that-moves Fighter, a couple lower-level drow clerics, and two drow wizards - 7th and 5th level. The entire point was to kill the GMPC which I'd realized I'd created to compete with another player and figured killing that character was the fastest way to prevent me from doing this again. (One disintegrate spell and one failed save (legitimately rolled) did the deed.)
The Drow clerics were used to wipe out one player's Shadow summons, and the two drow wizards did drop 12d6 worth of fireballs on the group (one 7th level and one 5th level fireball). No one was seriously hurt.
The group retreated for two reasons. First, they had lost the NPC Cleric/Wizard. Second, they didn't know what they were facing or just how many foes were still out there. (That and the wiping out of the Shadows freaked out the strategist player.)
So. You CAN do a number on your players if you use tactics. A combination of battlelines and archers behind them adding to the group's woes (not exactly doable with Pathfinder seeing how damage scales up now) or the effective use of terrain to hide just how many foes they face can cause a group to actually turn tail and flee even when they are winning - because they won't know they're winning.
Piccolo Taphodarian |
If you truly want to sic 40 or so individual monsters on them, go right ahead. If you think they won't quickly kill them off despite the huge number? Well, you'll probably end up surprised.
Here's the thing about the Troop "template" - you are the one who builds the encounter. As such you could give 12 demons in one "troop" 2,000 hit points if you so desired. There are no set rules so you can do what you want to make sure it's a threat to your group.
Here's the thing. That CR 11 troop on that link is made up of 9-12 level 6 fighters. It can't be flanked, it can't be hit by single-target spells. It doesn't make attack rolls - it automatically damages, much like a swarm. Thus ultra-high armor class is useless.
It will be quite the unexpected surprise for your party.
I expect them to quickly kill them off once they pick up AoE spells. That is when I will start increasing the size of the horde. Turning a troop into a swarm is an interesting idea. I might give that a try if my combats become too bogged down.
I'm running a really empowered campaign. I sent 30 dretches at lvl 1 PCs. They won. But it took a while. I might want to tighten that up with a troop template. We shall see.
Raltus |
Raltus wrote:I want to use the "troop" subtype and I have read those links a few times now, just one questions. How do I go about it? It is so vague and I feel like I might make something too powerful. Any advice would be helpful.
That's just the thing - it's essentially just making up a brand new monster (and then giving it the (Troop) subtype at the end).
That's why I'd like to see a Troop template of some sort that makes this job a lot easier. A 'unit' of x number of yeti? Got you covered. A 'unit' of y number of 5th-7th level gunslingers? Get you covered there, too.
*sigh*
So I was looking up the Mob template from 3.5 The Mob
Seems like the Troop subtype is a lesser version of the Mob template.
I know there are differences between a template and subtype, the big one i saw was the dmg charts to look up, seems like the Troops do a 1/3 of the dmg a mob does. Maybe based on over all size or just the way he wanted it edited. Anyway this is what I am going to use.
NobodysHome |
I ran it like the book said. She was in her lair, they knew she was there, and they knew she breathed acid.
So I let them come in, she waited just around the corner so they couldn't hit her with a bunch of spells, and the Hasted fighter ran in and blocked her from coming out. (Yet another single creature trapped in a way-too-small cave. But that's a whole separate thread.)
So I gleefully had her position herself and hit the party with her breath of confusion.
Not. A. Single. Failed. Save.
WotR gives out so much loot so freely that everyone's got +5 Cloaks of Resistance, everyone's got that medal for +2 saves vs. confusion, and the fighter is eternally buffed by mythic Heroism for another +4.
Had the fighter failed the save, it might have been a TPK. As it was, since he was coherent, he could hardly miss her, and she could hardly miss him. So he hit her for 110, she hit him for 75, and then he hit her for 120. All the while, the bard and the sorceress were extricating themselves from the fog, and the cleric failed to get through her SR.
Another 50-100 hit points would have made the fight more interesting as she fired off a Baleful Polymorph and flew up to hide in the fog cloud, but once the fighter saved vs. confusion she was really never a threat.
I'm looking forward to/dreading today's fight at Arushelae's redoubt. The party is well-equipped to deal with single enemies. The redoubt promises to be extremely nasty for them. The fighter can't kill more than one enemy a round, and there are a LOT of enemies...
NobodysHome |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess you didn't hit them with Scorpions upgraded encounter area? That alone made the encounter 100% more interesting than it would have been with a simple cave.
Nope. As I've said from the beginning, my plan was to run everything by-the-book and report as I went along, including at what point the book simply failed me.
The dungeons under Drezen were a mess, but that was because of grossly under-CR'ed encounters rather than mythic. Many of the encounters have been won based on good planning/positioning by the party (simple things like Death Ward on everyone before going into a crypt, a Magic Circle against Evil that the party hides in, etc.), and I really can't complain about those.
We even had quite a few of the "silly BBEG in a small room" moments in Rise of the Runelords, such as poor Lucretia being surprised by a Silenced paladin and learning that going toe-to-toe with a barbarian and a paladin was Not Good.
But this one was just sad. A CR 15 dragon that a 9th-level fighter can go one-on-one with and come out on top? That just shouldn't happen. And it wasn't mythic. He didn't get a single mythic crit. He only used mythic Power Attack the second round and that only added 9 points of damage (though I'll admit, the dragon dropped to -8). The mythic Heroism wasn't the difference in his save vs. confusion.
It's things you've mentioned before: An insane amount of loot putting the PCs well above WBL. "One encounter a day" scenarios where the encounters are so well-telegraphed the party can burn all their buffs at once. And solo bad guys whose hit points are so low that a fairly average fighter can kill them in a couple of rounds.
So I've got a HUUUGE amount of prep work for Arushelae's Redoubt ahead of me. I have high hopes that this one fight will take most of today's session. I honestly think I'm going to kill a PC or two and force the others to retreat. I have flying enemies, buffers, plenty of space to work with, and choke points where I can pin down the PCs.
Now, let's see what actually happens...
Sebastian Hirsch |
You are a trooper NobodysHome, what you are doing isn't an option for my group. I dread what will happen in later installments, and the fact that your fighter has to handcuff himself seems rather bad. Maybe he could start using a dagger as a weapon, or carry excessively heavy clothing, bind one of your arms to make it impossible to use in combat.
Yeah, all anime suggestions, they seems quite appropriate.
magnuskn |
I don't know, the objective of "running the modules as it is" kinda becomes moot when it requires the players to consciously avoid taking everything good. Compare to a normal AP, would your players avoid taking Power Attack or Spell Penetration? Would you consider a normal AP well crafted if it would require your players to?
Piccolo Taphodarian |
If the players are choosing weaker options because they feel bad using them, something is wrong with the rules design. My players are picking every amazing combination they can. I'm looking for ways to allow them to use them and feel strong, while at the same time providing a challenge. I'd rather not deny them their cool powers.
I do want them to be able to obliterate non-mythic creatures. If a horde of non-mythic demons assault the group, I want them to wipe them out and look like badasses doing it. I don't even care if the smiting paladin one shots a non-mythic balor at level 15 or 16. I'm ok with them walking the world where most things hide from them, most things hide from Hercules or Launcelot.
My problem is mythic creatures, specifically single big creatures. This same problem exists in regular Pathfinder. It exists to the nth degree in Mythic Adventures. Adding even a tier 10 number of hit points does not account for the damage output of a paladin using smite and mythic power attack or a barbarian using Greater Beast Totem pounce with Raging Brutality. Why would the game designers think it would?
That's the main problem with the game. We constantly talk about martial versus caster disparities. But there are massive martial disparities as well. There is the paladin (against evil) and the barbarian, then there is everyone else with a wide gap. I'm not talk about just damage, but overall offense, defense, and utility. The ranger is pretty good as well, but even they don't have the defensive options against powerful will effects which are extremely common at higher levels. The barbarian and paladin can shrug off magical attacks better than any other martial, survive beatings, and dish out amazing damage. It makes it extremely hard to balance encounters for other less martial types, while providing a consistent challenge for optimized barbarians and paladins. The balance becomes progressively worse as they reach higher levels. For example, I just read in the ACG that the barbarian now has a supernatural flight option while raging. He can add this to a character with Greater Beast Totem. So now even flying creatures cannot resist the barbarian pounce.
Why is Paizo making it nearly impossible to stop the barbarian, while leaving all the other martial classes in the dust?
Tangent101 |
It seems the problem with Mythic lies with the Mythic Enhancers - Feats and Spells. Thus by eliminating Mythic Feats that enhance existing Feats, and disallowing Mythic Spells that enhance existing spells? You help alleviate the problem with Mythic.
Now I just need to start working on some Mythic Spells... ^^;;
NobodysHome |
So here's my update:
(1) I hit them with half a dozen drake riders in a wide-open area (let's just say they went astray in their search for the kidnapped Anevia). It was an awesome combat. Everyone agreed that it was the first challenging combat they've had in ages. I even got to drop the fighter, and the cleric only survived because of two bad rolls by a charging rider. But it was a combat that I made up; far beyond the CRs of the encounters listed in the random encounter table.
And I think plain and simple it was action economy.
(2) The redoubt was another great fight. I could have gone uber-nasty on them (a group of grimslakes pairing up to fire two Rays of Exhaustion at every PC is truly evil), but I played each creature according to its nature (the grimslakes were too busy eating all the lovely demon corpses falling from the sky). But again, it was action economy. I had nearly 20 evil creatures running around, so there was no way the party could deal with them all quickly.
(3) In spite of a day of excellent combats, the fighter's player has asked permission to rewrite himself as a Guardian. He hardly ever uses mythic surges, has never used Foe Biter, and generally feels that he has to handcuff himself too much. The cleric is completely out of mythic surges every single day. The sorceress frequently runs out. He rarely uses more than 2-3 in a day, because he feels he has to hold back.
He's hoping that focusing entirely on defense will let him still feel effective without having to hold back.
(4) And the problem with tougher monsters is... no one else feels they're able to do anything to them already! The sorceress' player was just discussing yesterday how the entire AP seems designed around, "Everyone else exists to feed stuff to the fighter." She wants to feel effective in her own right, but all creatures have energy resistances, spell resistances, and so many hit points that her tier 3 blasting spells just don't do a heck of a lot to them.
So even the fighter doesn't want to see me up individual creatures' toughnesses, as that prevents the rest of the party from feeling effective. He can one-shot anything. Everyone else has trouble killing anything. Using upped stat blocks would only make it worse for the others.
So yesterday's excellent session supports Piccolo's approach: More mid-level mooks to allow the others to participate in the combat.
Seannoss |
My PCs never had issues with SR, it is easy to get around. A blasting character does need to take eldritch breach or some spell pen feats. Or get another tier or two so magic missile and fireball ignores it.
And a major issue is action economy; taking that extra action at 3rd tier and poss (mythic) haste added in PCs only need one round.
I hated mythic heroism too, it really made me consider a buff max on characters.
NobodysHome |
Oh, the sorceress is blowing through SR. But with mythic Magic Missile doing only 30-40 damage, and the fighter hitting for 1d6+30 at least three times a round, she's waaaay behind in the damage-dealing department to single critters. And that's not even counting his 15-20 crit range.
In the big group fights she was essential. Everyone's WAAAAY happy with yesterday's session.
Lesson learned.
magnuskn |
Eh, she'll be very good a bit later on, believe me. I just had last week the opportunity to see the Sorcerer do an empowered maximised enervate on an opponent, followed by quickened mythic disintegrate. It worked quite well.
Sebastian Hirsch |
If the players are choosing weaker options because they feel bad using them, something is wrong with the rules design. My players are picking every amazing combination they can. I'm looking for ways to allow them to use them and feel strong, while at the same time providing a challenge. I'd rather not deny them their cool powers.
I do want them to be able to obliterate non-mythic creatures. If a horde of non-mythic demons assault the group, I want them to wipe them out and look like badasses doing it. I don't even care if the smiting paladin one shots a non-mythic balor at level 15 or 16. I'm ok with them walking the world where most things hide from them, most things hide from Hercules or Launcelot.
My problem is mythic creatures, specifically single big creatures. This same problem exists in regular Pathfinder. It exists to the nth degree in Mythic Adventures. Adding even a tier 10 number of hit points does not account for the damage output of a paladin using smite and mythic power attack or a barbarian using Greater Beast Totem pounce with Raging Brutality. Why would the game designers think it would?
That's the main problem with the game. We constantly talk about martial versus caster disparities. But there are massive martial disparities as well. There is the paladin (against evil) and the barbarian, then there is everyone else with a wide gap. I'm not talk about just damage, but overall offense, defense, and utility. The ranger is pretty good as well, but even they don't have the defensive options against powerful will effects which are extremely common at higher levels. The barbarian and paladin can shrug off magical attacks better than any other martial, survive beatings, and dish out amazing damage. It makes it extremely hard to balance encounters for other less martial types, while providing a consistent challenge for optimized barbarians and paladins. The balance becomes progressively worse as they reach higher levels. For example, I just read in the ACG that the barbarian...
Had a ranger without an animal companion - just didn't use it in combat - with favored enemy:human and the APG hunter spells, it destroyed Kingmaker. Of course it was an archer, ranger archers tend to be go(o)d.
Sebastian Hirsch |
So here's my update:
(1) I hit them with half a dozen drake riders in a wide-open area (let's just say they went astray in their search for the kidnapped Anevia). It was an awesome combat. Everyone agreed that it was the first challenging combat they've had in ages. I even got to drop the fighter, and the cleric only survived because of two bad rolls by a charging rider. But it was a combat that I made up; far beyond the CRs of the encounters listed in the random encounter table.
And I think plain and simple it was action economy.
(2) The redoubt was another great fight. I could have gone uber-nasty on them (a group of grimslakes pairing up to fire two Rays of Exhaustion at every PC is truly evil), but I played each creature according to its nature (the grimslakes were too busy eating all the lovely demon corpses falling from the sky). But again, it was action economy. I had nearly 20 evil creatures running around, so there was no way the party could deal with them all quickly.
(3) In spite of a day of excellent combats, the fighter's player has asked permission to rewrite himself as a Guardian. He hardly ever uses mythic surges, has never used Foe Biter, and generally feels that he has to handcuff himself too much. The cleric is completely out of mythic surges every single day. The sorceress frequently runs out. He rarely uses more than 2-3 in a day, because he feels he has to hold back.
He's hoping that focusing entirely on defense will let him still feel effective without having to hold back.(4) And the problem with tougher monsters is... no one else feels they're able to do anything to them already! The sorceress' player was just discussing yesterday how the entire AP seems designed around, "Everyone else exists to feed stuff to the fighter." She wants to feel effective in her own right, but all creatures have energy resistances, spell resistances, and so many hit points that her tier 3 blasting spells just don't do a heck of a lot to them.
So even the fighter doesn't...
Thats the problem with exploding enemy hp numbers, characters with moderate damage output (bard), or those whose damage s based on spells, don't feel like they can compete. This might affect a sorcerer (who could has access to black tentacles btw) much more than a magus.
The proper number of encounters per day is a tricky chestnut, to few and the casters roll all over them, too many and they feel unable to contribute.
Sebastian Hirsch |
With empower, maximize and mythicness missiles gets easily over 100 damage without there being anything to block it. Extra mythic power felt essential for spell casters, especially with the lack of cool path abilities.
I honestly can't see myself stating a mythic arcane caster without a dip in guardian or trickster, they have awesome toys^^