Where in Golarion is Ireland?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I thought red hair was also prevalent in the Scottish Highlands?

Liberty's Edge

S'mon wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Huh. Citation? It's not that I disbelieve you, I'm just honestly interested in the source of your data, and how recent it is. I'm curious why I haven't run into it previously, basically. :)

I guess you've not visited both Ireland & Scandinavia, then. It's pretty obvious on the street. But you can google 'incidence of red hair in Europe' if you want some data.

Incidence of a particular trait in an area in the modern day doesn't necessarily mean anything about its origin. Most people in North America are various ethnicities other than Native American...but that doesn't mean such people are native to the area, just for one example.

That said, looking at the data you appear to be entirely correct. I'm just noting that the logic you cite doesn't necessarily follow.

Sovereign Court Contributor

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

There is no Celtic genetic group Celts were a cultural and language group.

As for not being heavily forrested Ireland had been very much cleared since the Neolithic. Woodlands, marshes and bogs yes, impenetrable Forrest nope.

In Wales, there was a ring of impenetrable forest around the lower slopes and narrow valleys of the hills - later violently cleared by the Saesneg and the Ffrainc (the Dean is a survivor). The upper slopes were bare and subject to herding and the coasts were inhabited by Norse-Welsh.

I recall there being medieval forests in the Leinster mountains... But bogs are a major part of any Insular Celtic landscape.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

There is no Celtic genetic group Celts were a cultural and language group.

Strictly speaking that's true. Although Haplogroup R1b comes close - being common in western France, northern Spain, Britain & Ireland -, all regions which the ancient Romans described as Celtic.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Incidence of a particular trait in an area in the modern day doesn't necessarily mean anything about its origin. Most people in North America are various ethnicities other than Native American...but that doesn't mean such people are native to the area, just for one example.

That said, looking at the data you appear to be entirely correct. I'm just noting that the logic you cite doesn't necessarily follow.

Ireland and Scandinavia have both had historically low immigration rates, until very recently. And neither has had many redhaired people of non-native ethnicities immigrating. :)

Northern Ireland (where I'm from*) and western Scotland have even more red hair than southern Ireland, BTW, it's correct about the 'Scottish Highlands' and Gaelic Scotland in general being very red. Eastern Scotland was Saxon-settled, and has fewer redheads.

*Northern Irish girls are of course the most beautiful of all.:)


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Huh. Citation? It's not that I disbelieve you, I'm just honestly interested in the source of your data, and how recent it is. I'm curious why I haven't run into it previously, basically. :)

I maintain that the Land of the Linnorm Kings is a good place for such a person to come from in Golarion, though. Redheads from there have shown up in a few things.

Spoiler:

For Livy, the passage I had in mind is as follows:

"Their tall stature, their long red hair, their huge shields, their extraordinarily long swords; still more, their songs as they enter into battle, their war-whoops and dances, and the horrible clash of arms as they shake their shields in the way their fathers did before them - all these things are intended to terrify and appal. But let those fear them to whom they are strange and startling, such as the Greeks and Phrygians and Carians. We Romans are familiar with Gaulish tumults and know how they come to nothing."

(38.17, speaking of Galatians)

I could give you a run-down of other citations in ancient writers, of which I know that there are several, but I'd have to take some time to look up others than the one I had in mind. Let me know if you are interested.

Looks like you already found the modern data relating to my comment about Scandinavia.

8th Dwarf, in ancient tribal societies, language and heredity were often two sides of the same coin.


Jeven wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

There is no Celtic genetic group Celts were a cultural and language group.

Strictly speaking that's true. Although Haplogroup R1b comes close - being common in western France, northern Spain, Britain & Ireland -, all regions which the ancient Romans described as Celtic.

That haplogroup existed before the rise of the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, and there is very little genetic evidence of invasion. It was more of a trade and technology adoption, with elites from the continent moving in and making "Celtic" culture fashionable.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Jeven wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

There is no Celtic genetic group Celts were a cultural and language group.

Strictly speaking that's true. Although Haplogroup R1b comes close - being common in western France, northern Spain, Britain & Ireland -, all regions which the ancient Romans described as Celtic.
That haplogroup existed before the rise of the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, and there is very little genetic evidence of invasion. It was more of a trade and technology adoption, with elites from the continent moving in and making "Celtic" culture fashionable.

'Pots not People'! :D

Technology certainly does spread beyond the bounds of its native population group. "Elites moving in" is a genetic spread, though. This usually involves violence, eg the Saxon conquest of most of Britain, with exceptions where eg a cosmopolitan empire has been pre-established, or movement of mercantile minorities who become 'elite' through trading skill rather than violence. But the spread of Celtic culture via elites looks to me more like the later spread of Germanic culture at the fall of the western Roman empire; ie a likely spread of warrior elites interbreeding with native population.

Edit: Intermarriage is another possibility that allows limited cultural spread plus limited genetic spread. Peaceful intermarriage usually involves the movement of wives, so should show up mostly in the female line (so can be seen in mitochondrial DNA), while conquest involves mostly the movement of men (so shows up in Y chromosome). From what I've seen both the old 'massive movements of peoples' model of pre-history, and the replacement 'pots not people' model, don't seem to be well supported by the genetic evidence, which supports a more mixed view with generally small migrant populations who usually interbreed, often conquerors who then merge into the conquered population. The exception is when farmers expand into hunter/gatherer territories, because the h/g population density is much lower they often don't leave much mark on the future DNA of the population. But that wasn't what happened with the Celtic expansion; there was already well-established farming populations in place.

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