Adding hit die to a horse and cost in PFS Organized play

[Azothath]

I haven't seen this topic, and there are no rules on it that I'm aware, and it would seem to effect a good percentage of players...

1) How do you add hit die to a mount (such as a horse) and what is the associated cost? How should this be implemented (if at all).

2) While some classes gain animal companions, is it possible for them to keep the same animal and increase its hit die rather than obtain a new animal? a 7HD Horse versus a Tiger(6HD) or Advanced Template Tiger... How should this be implemented (if at all).

3) I do not see any restrictions on Animals taking levels in classes, such as fighters or NPC classes like expert. This would be one way to model the added hit dice other than racial(animal) hit die. Again, there's the associated cost involved, or do animals just get scenario chronicles (lol)?

[Zach W.]

Stephen Ross wrote:

I haven't seen this topic, and there are no rules on it that I'm aware, and it would seem to effect a good percentage of players...

1) How do you add hit die to a mount (such as a horse) and what is the associated cost? How should this be implemented (if at all).

2) While some classes gain animal companions, is it possible for them to keep the same animal and increase its hit die rather than obtain a new animal? a 7HD Horse versus a Tiger(6HD) or Advanced Template Tiger... How should this be implemented (if at all).

I do not really know what you are talking about here...

If you gain an animal companion it gains HD at intervals as you level.

If your simply buying a horse from CRB or UE, then that is not possible.

[Azothath]

Zach Williams wrote:

I do not really know what you are talking about here...

If you gain an animal companion it gains HD at intervals as you level.

If your simply buying a horse from CRB or UE, then that is not possible.

I understand... it is simply not covered and thus assumed not allowed. THAT's why I'm asking. Essentially you can buy a named thing that exists in the Core or Additional resources with an associated cost. That's it.

so on 1) you are saying we have to wait on more accepted printed material (resources)?

so on 2) you are saying the creature gains HD or the PC may opt for a different animal.

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(yes - edited...)

[Zach W.]

Yea, it is not allowed to buy advanced animals, or higher hit dice animals. At least in PFS, I am sure it has been homebrewed before.

[Nefreet]

You ask about new rules being "implemented", but as a VL you should know that's not how things work.

If you want to purchase a 7 HD Horse, you're totally free to do so. Just make sure it's an available item from a legal Additional Resource and add it to your ITS.

Same thing for a Horse with levels in Fighter. I'm sure it's somewhere in Animal Archive. I see people walking around all the time with them.

[nosig]

(IMHO) what you are suggesting (if I understand it correctly), would require a major rule modification/change to the Pathfinder game system. This seems not to be the correct place the suggestion, as this is for the PF Society board. In what way is this PFS specific?

[nosig]

Nefreet wrote:

You ask about new rules being "implemented", but as a VL you should know that's not how things work.

If you want to purchase a 7 HD Horse, you're totally free to do so. Just make sure it's an available item from a legal Additional Resource and add it to your ITS.

Same thing for a Horse with levels in Fighter. I'm sure it's somewhere in Animal Archive. I see people walking around all the time with them.

??? have I wondered into the twilight zone? animals with PC levels? what?

I do not recall ever seeing anyone with an animal with PC levels... even in a home game, let alone in PFS.

[Jeff Merola]

nosig wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

You ask about new rules being "implemented", but as a VL you should know that's not how things work.

If you want to purchase a 7 HD Horse, you're totally free to do so. Just make sure it's an available item from a legal Additional Resource and add it to your ITS.

Same thing for a Horse with levels in Fighter. I'm sure it's somewhere in Animal Archive. I see people walking around all the time with them.

??? have I wondered into the twilight zone? animals with PC levels? what?

I do not recall ever seeing anyone with an animal with PC levels... even in a home game, let alone in PFS.

I have, but it was a homegame and the Awaken spell was involved.

[Nefreet]

I figured the sarcasm was obvious, but apparently nosig failed his Sense Motive check.

(and just to be clear, the same thing goes for the 7 HD Horse)

[Akerlof]

Stephen Ross wrote:

I haven't seen this topic, and there are no rules on it that I'm aware, and it would seem to effect a good percentage of players...

1) How do you add hit die to a mount (such as a horse) and what is the associated cost? How should this be implemented (if at all).

2) While some classes gain animal companions, is it possible for them to keep the same animal and increase its hit die rather than obtain a new animal? a 7HD Horse versus a Tiger(6HD) or Advanced Template Tiger... How should this be implemented (if at all).

3) I do not see any restrictions on Animals taking levels in classes, such as fighters or NPC classes like expert. This would be one way to model the added hit dice other than racial(animal) hit die. Again, there's the associated cost involved, or do animals just get scenario chronicles (lol)?

If you have a mount or animal companion, it automatically gains hit dice as you level. You use the stats for the companion found in the Druid section of the Core Rulebook and advance it as you level through Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. So, for example, when your effective druid level is 8, both a horse and a tiger animal companion will have 7 hit dice (along with BAB 5, 7 skill points, 4 feats, a +4 natural armor bonus, +2 to Dex and Str, etc. etc.)

For reference, at level 1 a horse animal companion has the following stats:

Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.

And a tiger animal companion has these stats:
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores[.b] Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; [b]Special Attacks rake (1d4); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Characters don't get the bestiary version of animals for companions, that would break the game at low levels and really, really suck at high levels.

If you're talking about non-class feature animals that you buy, like from Adventurer's Armory or Animal Archive, then I don't think you can advance the animals beyond what's described in the book.

[Tamec]

Jeff Merola wrote:

nosig wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

You ask about new rules being "implemented", but as a VL you should know that's not how things work.

If you want to purchase a 7 HD Horse, you're totally free to do so. Just make sure it's an available item from a legal Additional Resource and add it to your ITS.

Same thing for a Horse with levels in Fighter. I'm sure it's somewhere in Animal Archive. I see people walking around all the time with them.

??? have I wondered into the twilight zone? animals with PC levels? what?

I do not recall ever seeing anyone with an animal with PC levels... even in a home game, let alone in PFS.

I have, but it was a homegame and the Awaken spell was involved.

Yeah me too, my brother was running Savage Tide, my druid took the leadership feat cast awaken on his animal companion (a crocodile) and took his former animal companion as his cohort, who, eventually, became a fighter.)

[Azothath]

I didn't see where it was specifically talked about in FAQs and such, so therefore the conservative and safe view is that it is not legal. I do not dispute that.

really I'm just posting to see discussion on this topic... it IS a chat board. Perhaps an idea bulb might light up at Paizo...

I have not had a player with an animal with fighter levels.

I reviewed the Animal Archive and there are no animals with levels, the topic has an aside on pg22 under awakened animals where "certain types of animals may favor specific classes, battle tactics, or even weapons." Cost is not addressed. For PFS this falls into the not legal category as those pages are not called out as approved in Additional Resources citations (there are quotes on what pages are and are not legal, pg 22-23 is not mentioned so one must assume the negative that it is not legal) and Awaken spell is not legal for play. So the question remains for normal animals and levels.

[BigNorseWolf]

Stephen Ross wrote:

1) How do you add hit die to a mount (such as a horse) and what is the associated cost? How should this be implemented (if at all).

There no rule for it. So there;s no cost for it.

This isn't something PFS would do on its own because its a pretty big rules change

This isn't something PFS would do on its own because its already kinda restrictive with animal companions.

If the main team were going to do something like this, they would have done it with the animal archive and they didn't.

2) While some classes gain animal companions, is it possible for them to keep the same animal and increase its hit die rather than obtain a new animal? a 7HD Horse versus a Tiger(6HD) or Advanced Template Tiger... How should this be implemented (if at all).

No idea what you're asking here. You changed too many variables in your example.

3) I do not see any restrictions on Animals taking levels in classes, such as fighters or NPC classes like expert.

Nothing allows it. Since nothing allows it its not allowed.

[Azothath]

racing horses and having a able fighting mount seems to be a point of pride among the wealthy and those with spare coin. It seems to be a simple topic to say - how much would a 3HD horse cost me?

I think this could be modeled and incorporated into PFS Organized Play as it's not that difficult and it would affect a decent percentage of the players. Thus it's a reasonable chat topic for musing.

[Nefreet]

PFS doesn't create rules. That's the job of the Design Team.

If such rules are ever created, PFS will either implement or ban them. That is the extent of interaction with the rules that PFS takes.

There are already six different types of Horses available for purchase: Light Horse, Combat Trained Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Combat Trained Heavy Horse, Pony and Combat Trained Pony. You are certainly free to purchase a herd of them if you wish* and roleplay them as your champion collection of Qadiran-bred desert horses.

*only one allowed during combat, of course.

[CathalFM]

Stephen Ross wrote:

racing horses and having a able fighting mount seems to be a point of pride among the wealthy and those with spare coin. It seems to be a simple topic to say - how much would a 3HD horse cost me?

I think this could be modeled and incorporated into PFS Organized Play as it's not that difficult and it would affect a decent percentage of the players. Thus it's a reasonable chat topic for musing.

While your real world example of better horses is accurate you have to think about how this would affect the game.

"Hey you animal companion classes, guess what you can suck-it because I just bought me a nice high HD horse. Thats right money beeyotchs, it solves everything!"

Basically it would really devalue the animal companion, this is why there are only basic non-class mounts/horses available. Or.... at least thats my opinion :)

[CathalFM]

Nefreet wrote:

PFS doesn't create rules. That's the job of the Design Team.

If such rules are ever created, PFS will either implement or ban them. That is the extent of interaction with the rules that PFS takes.

There are already six different types of Horses available for purchase: Light Horse, Combat Trained Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Combat Trained Heavy Horse, Pony and Combat Trained Pony. You are certainly free to purchase a herd of them if you wish* and roleplay them as your champion collection of Qadiran-bred desert horses.

*only one allowed during combat, of course.

Aren't you meant to be studying, tut tut ;)

Agree with all of the above btw

[Azothath]

Nefreet wrote:

PFS doesn't create rules. That's the job of the Design Team.

If such rules are ever created, PFS will either implement or ban them. That is the extent of interaction with the rules that PFS takes.

There are already six different types of Horses available for purchase: Light Horse, Combat Trained Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Combat Trained Heavy Horse, Pony and Combat Trained Pony. You are certainly free to purchase a herd of them if you wish* and roleplay them as your champion collection of Qadiran-bred desert horses.

*only one allowed during combat, of course.

thank you for your insight

I agree and understood that before I posted, so we are all on the same page there. I'd expect a hands down "not legal" in the rules forum. I think my intent was more general in nature and mused on what should be and doable with an assigned cost. One could say the topic wandered from the get go 8^)
I don't expect any rules to come out of this - not my intent either.
On difficulty, a horse with 3HD in a published source included in Additional Resources would address this issue and so it's not that hard, it's just something not in the scope of PFS but of Paizo.
The cost of said critter is why it lands here and I think it's a reasonable topic to discuss... pro or con.

As I said,

Azothath wrote:

really I'm just posting to see discussion on this topic... it IS a chat board.

[Nefreet]

CathalFM wrote:

Aren't you meant to be studying, tut tut ;)

*sighs and steps away from the keyboard*

[Azothath]

I have requested to move the posting - hopefully it will land in the Pathfinder/General Discussion board.

[The Beard]

nosig wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

You ask about new rules being "implemented", but as a VL you should know that's not how things work.

If you want to purchase a 7 HD Horse, you're totally free to do so. Just make sure it's an available item from a legal Additional Resource and add it to your ITS.

Same thing for a Horse with levels in Fighter. I'm sure it's somewhere in Animal Archive. I see people walking around all the time with them.

??? have I wondered into the twilight zone? animals with PC levels? what?

I do not recall ever seeing anyone with an animal with PC levels... even in a home game, let alone in PFS.

My usual group had somebody playing in a Rise of the Runelords game as a wolf with class levels. Suffice to say it was rather humorous, though regrettably short lived.

But if you think about it, it's not that hard of a thing to accomplish. Just slap awaken on the animal and hope you don't get terribad rolls and bam. Well, assuming you're doing things outside of PFS, after all. Doesn't exactly fly here.

[Avatar-1]

nosig wrote:

??? have I wandered into the twilight zone?

I am going to use this line in a game one day

[Matthew Pittard]

Speaking of Rise of the Runelords.. the only sight Ive ever see of an Advanced Horse. Even if our Ranger gave it that Narrow feat. Then we started on the treated poorly jokes.

Id also want Squealy Nord to be advanced.

[Klarkash-Ton]

you'd have to review We'd be goblins three!

[Charlie Bell]

Matthew Pittard wrote:

Speaking of Rise of the Runelords.. the only sight Ive ever see of an Advanced Horse. Even if our Ranger gave it that Narrow feat. Then we started on the treated poorly jokes.

Id also want Squealy Nord to be advanced.

A heavy horse is an advanced horse:

PRD wrote:

Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template. In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inflicts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6. As with a light horse, a heavy horse can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.

[Andreas Forster]

The Beard wrote:

My usual group had somebody playing in a Rise of the Runelords game as a wolf with class levels. Suffice to say it was rather humorous, though regrettably short lived.

I also play a wolf with class levels in Rise of the Runelords, although he's actually a wolf shaman druid who runs around as a dire wolf all the time ^^

Stephen Ross wrote:

so on 2) you are saying the creature gains HD or the PC may opt for a different animal.

I'm surprised nobody caught that one.

The player can not opt for an additional animal instead of increasing his current companion's HD unless he's got an archetype that explicitly says he can. But as far as I know, those archetypes are all illegal in PFS.

[nosig]

Andreas Forster wrote:

...snipping...

Stephen Ross wrote:

so on 2) you are saying the creature gains HD or the PC may opt for a different animal.

I'm surprised nobody caught that one.

The player can not opt for an additional animal instead of increasing his current companion's HD unless he's got an archetype that explicitly says he can. But as far as I know, those archetypes are all illegal in PFS.

actually I think he was talking about taking a different animal companion, as in replacing the first one with a different animal, not gaining an additional animal.

Different animal, not additional animal.

Dismiss the current animal, call a new one.

[Azothath]

seems the topic is staying here.

well - I was really trying to foster chat about higher hit die mounts for purchase and I think I've made that abundantly clear. Right now they are not available. As the cost is central to the topic it would seem that PFS player would have a vested interest (thus board placement). My original post could have been clearer (ahh well...). I've seen sillier topics and I thought I'd put the creativity out there to good use... lol... you can see the results.

As I was talking about modelling the cost (which is central to this chat, and PFS players are pretty price conscious) companions and familiars and such are an existing model. So companions were one way to get to the HD, just there isn't any cost associated with the scaling. Other animals are priced out in the Animal Archive with various HD and abilities. So there was a thread of parallelism there.

In my research on the topic #3 popped up as it follows the rules for monster PCs which was interesting and linked levels to HD, and thus for PFS chronicles to level. I'm not aware of any monster PCs in the campaign, but it was an interesting thought.

There are other animals out there with costs, but why go crazy for a tiger or try to reskin something into a horse... it'd be far easier to have a 3 or 4 HD horse that you could purchase. There are just no rules or critters like that at the moment.

At higher levels animals and such become a liability due to deadly spells. It would be nice to have your horse survive a fireball or two. Secondly - a lot of higher level characters would buy a horse with more HD. So it would affect a decent percentage of the players.

As I've said it seems a simple and doable area... just if it is done via a monster entry Paizo has to print it then PFS say it's ok to purchase. Not a big deal. A rule to scale HD and cost would be better.

now that I've clarified what I'm asking, and we've chatted about what is and isn't available as of 5/21/2014, things will get a bit more creative.

[BigNorseWolf]

Con:

Makes a class feature available for gold
Adds a pet for everyone
Takes up more combat time
Substantially increases the party's power
Requires pfs to make its own rules

Pro:

....?
I don't see any reason FOR doing this.

[Andreas Forster]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Adds a pet for everyone

There's already a way for everyone to get a pet that gains HD as the character gains levels. You need to own "Faiths and Philosophies" and take 2 feats (Nature Soul and Animal Ally).

I don't think it's a good idea to put a price tag on this. If you want to have a pet with increasing HD, use one of the many ways to get an animal companion. Being able to pay for an animal with increasing HD just devaluates animal companions.

[BigNorseWolf]

Andreas Forster wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Adds a pet for everyone

There's already a way for everyone to get a pet that gains HD as the character gains levels. You need to own "Faiths and Philosophies" and take 2 feats (Nature Soul and Animal Ally).

I don't think it's a good idea to put a price tag on this. If you want to have a pet with increasing HD, use one of the many ways to get an animal companion. Being able to pay for an animal with increasing HD just devaluates animal companions.

If you have a magic item that can give three feats (nature soul, animal ally, boon companion) people would be banging down the doors to buy it.

[Azothath]

okay - so let's see what is available as a purchased mount...

Additional Resources page under Animal Archive {my comments}, "Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase {as animal companions}. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased. Goblin dog is restricted for purchase and only available to goblin PCs;"

so opening Animal Archive...(unless noted they are combat trained and sz:large, inserting horses and some humorous ones, not an exhaustive list);
Pony(2HD) sz:med 45GP
Kangaroo(1HD) sz:med < (less than) 50GP, exotic saddle but free saddlebag?
Bison(5HD) <80GP, I assume it also counts as 100+ emergency trail rations.
light Horse(2HD) 110GP.
Riding Dog(2HD) sz:med 150GP.
Wolf(2HD) sz:med <155GP.
giant Porcupine(3HD) sz:med <205GP and a special saddle and pair of pliers to pull out the quills...
giant Skunk(5HD) <290GP.
heavy Horse(2HD+2) 300GP.
Lion(5HD) <305GP, hold on when it pounces...
giant Chameleon(4HD) <355GP, a bit slow but you seem to float along in the air and its got a cute tongue...
dire Wolf(5HD) <385GP, of course you have to make Handle Animal checks (at worst DC15+HD+2) daily.
Tiger(6HD) <505GP, hold on when it pounces...
Grizzly Bear(5HD) <1115GP, a bit slow for a mount but faster than that giant Snapping Turtle...
dire Lion(8HD) or dire Tiger(14HD) <1060GP, of course you have to make Handle Animal checks (at worst DC15+HD+2) daily.
Axe Beak(3HD) requires a special chronicle to open it up for purchase at <1505GP.
Rhinoceros(5HD) <1505GP, CHARGE!
Woolly rhinoceros(8HD) <3005GP, a better charge and trample.