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Ultimately what it comes down to is Reverse Flash has to exist for Flash to exist, and Flash has to exist for Reverse Flash to exist.
The two are inexorably linked and as long as one exists so will the other. In essence they are both Fixed points in time for each other. Their every meeting is a Fixed point
Ultimately what it comes down to is Reverse Flash has to exist for Flash to exist, and Flash has to exist for Reverse Flash to exist.
The two are inexorably linked and as long as one exists so will the other. In essence they are both Fixed points in time for each other. Their every meeting is a Fixed point
That *almost* makes sense. I like it.
And..I am glad Patty figured it out.
Sill don't like her, but I no longer hate her.
It is in their past, therefore it's a fixed point in their timeline.
You can't change the past because the mere fact it's in the past makes it a fixed point? That would mean no time traveler could change anything when going back in time; all of history is in his past.
You can't change anything in your own personal past, but other people can make changes to your timeline? That seems grossly unfair and doesn't seem to serve any possible law of temporal conservation. And where does your personal timeline begin anyway -- with your own conception? your parent's first meeting?
Barry has changed the past within his own timeline, perhaps twice. He "always" was present at his mother's death, fighting with Reverse Flash, but he may not "always" have been there in a dual adult role, when he went back to stop himself from saving his mom. He definitely changed the past when he prevented the tsunami and saved Cisco's life.
As soon as Cisco died, that death became part of the [immediate] past, his and Barry's. Why is Nora's death different just because it happened years earlier? Events can't simply "age" into fixed points; if they did, there'd never be any danger of altering the distant past. All points would have aged to a fixed state.
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Events can't simply "age" into fixed points; if they did, there'd never be any danger of altering the distant past. All points would have aged to a fixed state.
Actually I've seen a story where this was exactly the case. They called it Temporal Inertia. The further an event is from the time traveller, the more "weight" it has and thus the more difficult it is to change.
Actually I've seen a story where this was exactly the case. They called it Temporal Inertia. The further an event is from the time traveller, the more "weight" it has and thus the more difficult it is to change.
It wouldn't be a bad concept if it were used consistently, but can't be applied here; Reverse Flash was able to change an event centuries in his past -- killing Nora Allen -- yet Barry isn't able to change that history after a mere 14 years?
Did her murder acquire the inertia Thawne had to overcome to make the change, reinforcing it as a point in time? Would that mean her murder could only be undone from a point farther in the future than Thawne's starting point (a point with more interia to overcome than Thawne had to?)
If so, does that mean that no change to history by a time traveler from Barry's future can ever be undone by Barry?
If so, can Barry get around that by travelling to the far future and coming back from there to make the desired change?
You're asking too many questions for a comic book show.
No. The plot writers decided to use time travel and s+%+ty sudo--logic to justify bad writing.
Actually I've seen a story where this was exactly the case. They called it Temporal Inertia. The further an event is from the time traveller, the more "weight" it has and thus the more difficult it is to change.It wouldn't be a bad concept if it were used consistently, but can't be applied here; Reverse Flash was able to change an event centuries in his past -- killing Nora Allen -- yet Barry isn't able to change that history after a mere 14 years?
Did her murder acquire the inertia Thawne had to overcome to make the change, reinforcing it as a point in time? Would that mean her murder could only be undone from a point farther in the future than Thawne's starting point (a point with more interia to overcome than Thawne had to?)
If so, does that mean that no change to history by a time traveler from Barry's future can ever be undone by Barry?
If so, can Barry get around that by travelling to the far future and coming back from there to make the desired change?
Was her being killed a change though?
In this episode RF gets the idea of killing Barry's mom because Barry told him he did it. The idea possibly hadn't even occured to him before that point.
It kind goes back into that Mutual Fixed Point idea I mentioned.
Mom dying motivates Barry to go into criminal investigation, this directly leads to him becoming the Flash, which ultimately creates the Reverse Flash.
Killing her guarantees the creation of both.
Saving her negates the creation of both and creates the paradox.
RF's End is Barry's begining. Barry's Legacy is RF's begining. The two have such a tanglled timeline that events have to unfold in a way that allows for the next meeting. RF has to reach the end of his Timeline for Barry's to start. Barry has to leave a Legacy to inspire RF. For either of them to try and end events before the proper time will result in things like Cysco being a paradox casualty.
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Right? "I used to admire you, then I found out my destiny was to be your greatest enemy?" WTF?
It was a really good episode. The scene on the train was so sweet :)
The scene on the train was, I thought, the worst part. "Ooh, send help, Barry, there's a man with a gun!"
Really? She's a police detective, Barry. Doesn't that strike you as the slightest bit contrived? Why did she call you? Why not a direct line to the CCPD? You idiot.
It was a really good episode. The scene on the train was so sweet :)The scene on the train was, I thought, the worst part. "Ooh, send help, Barry, there's a man with a gun!"
Really? She's a police detective, Barry. Doesn't that strike you as the slightest bit contrived? Why did she call you? Why not a direct line to the CCPD? You idiot.
Combined with the part where he basically admits to her that he lied to her face for no good reason and she just accepts it.
You know... At this point, this thread should be renamed "The Flash TV Series" or something.
I hate time-travel plots... Did I mention I hate time-travel plots? Because I really do! With the passion of a thousand suns!
I actually LOVE Time travel plots with much love.
This one however... wasn't a good one. I utterly hated the gobbely-g**@ that Harry was spouting about Thawnes' timeline starting in the future. Eddie shooting himself ERASED Thawne. Not the Thawne of NOW... but erased that he had ever been born in the first place, along with a hundred ancestors inbetween.
I knew they would be bringing RF back somehow, but this was a really terrible way to do it. I am curious if Legends of DCU will be this strict with their Time shenanigans.
Actually I've seen a story where this was exactly the case. They called it Temporal Inertia. The further an event is from the time traveller, the more "weight" it has and thus the more difficult it is to change.It wouldn't be a bad concept if it were used consistently, but can't be applied here; Reverse Flash was able to change an event centuries in his past -- killing Nora Allen -- yet Barry isn't able to change that history after a mere 14 years?
Did her murder acquire the inertia Thawne had to overcome to make the change, reinforcing it as a point in time? Would that mean her murder could only be undone from a point farther in the future than Thawne's starting point (a point with more interia to overcome than Thawne had to?)
If so, does that mean that no change to history by a time traveler from Barry's future can ever be undone by Barry?
If so, can Barry get around that by travelling to the far future and coming back from there to make the desired change?
Was her being killed a change though?
In this episode RF gets the idea of killing Barry's mom because Barry told him he did it. The idea possibly hadn't even occured to him before that point.
It kind goes back into that Mutual Fixed Point idea I mentioned.Mom dying motivates Barry to go into criminal investigation, this directly leads to him becoming the Flash, which ultimately creates the Reverse Flash.
Killing her guarantees the creation of both.
Saving her negates the creation of both and creates the paradox.RF's End is Barry's begining. Barry's Legacy is RF's begining. The two have such a tanglled timeline that events have to unfold in a way that allows for the next meeting. RF has to reach the end of his Timeline for Barry's to start. Barry has to leave a Legacy to inspire RF. For either of them to try and end events before the proper time will result in things like Cysco being a paradox casualty.
It was stated lsat season, that RF moved up the timeline. Flash was SUPPESED to be created much later, but Thawne took Wells place and built the McGuffin 10 years earlier. So even without Nora dying, The Flash accident was still supposed to happen.
I actually LOVE Time travel plots with much love.
This one however... wasn't a good one. I utterly hated the gobbely-g++@ that Harry was spouting about Thawnes' timeline starting in the future. Eddie shooting himself ERASED Thawne. Not the Thawne of NOW... but erased that he had ever been born in the first place, along with a hundred ancestors inbetween.
I knew they would be bringing RF back somehow, but this was a really terrible way to do it. I am curious if Legends of DCU will be this strict with their Time shenanigans.
It never really made sense... If Thawne was erased from the timeline, then he wouldn't have murdered Barry's mother... And Barry would have never become The Flash.
Time-travel is a horrible plot device because it creates too many plot holes and inconsistencies. I can count on one hand the number of times it worked... And most of those actually worked despite the time travel shenanigans, not because of them.
I actually LOVE Time travel plots with much love.
This one however... wasn't a good one. I utterly hated the gobbely-g++@ that Harry was spouting about Thawnes' timeline starting in the future. Eddie shooting himself ERASED Thawne. Not the Thawne of NOW... but erased that he had ever been born in the first place, along with a hundred ancestors inbetween.
I knew they would be bringing RF back somehow, but this was a really terrible way to do it. I am curious if Legends of DCU will be this strict with their Time shenanigans.
It never really made sense... If Thawne was erased from the timeline, then he wouldn't have murdered Barry's mother... And Barry would have never become The Flash.
Time-travel is a horrible plot device because it creates too many plot holes and inconsistencies. I can count on one hand the number of times it worked... And most of those actually worked despite the time travel shenanigans, not because of them.
Yep. Killing Eddie in season 1 was a stupid way to end the season. It made a lot of plot holes that COULD have been dodged around if they had chosen a different method.
AT LEAST the sky opened up and the worlds were torn asunder by the paradox... that SOMEHOW got stabilized. They at least acknowledged the impossibility. Still, their explaination for RF coming back didn't work for me.
I'm ALSO of the belief, that they SHOULD have altered the timeline. Just boot everything a few years ahead, age up some characters and 'this is how it was supposed to be,' with the new timeline. That would have been kind of fun.
it's the whole Flashpoint paradox stupidity. They made such a HUGE deal about how stupid and selfish Barry was trying to stop Zoom from killing his mom.... when THAT was the retcon. It's not wrong to STOP Zoom from changing the past, and all you mess up would be the 'wrong' timeline. It was no more wrong for him to change the 'Rebirth' Timeline then it was for him to change the Flashpoint timeline.... but everyone was Ok with that...
If Iris ever manages to integrate herself into the A-plot again (don't hold your breath), how do you think she will react to finding out that Team Flash basically convinced her fiance to commit suicide, given that it didn't even actually get rid of Thawne?
Maybe with them meeting Eobard while wearing his own face, they can finally stop referring to the season 1 Reverse Flash as "Wells".
If Iris ever manages to integrate herself into the A-plot again (don't hold your breath), how do you think she will react to finding out that Team Flash basically convinced her fiance to commit suicide, given that it didn't even actually get rid of Thawne?
Hopefully she will be outraged and leave the series forever... Gods... What an unlikable character... Shes either dull, pointless, annoying or all of the above. -.-'
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Right? "I used to admire you, then I found out my destiny was to be your greatest enemy?" WTF?
Back in the Wally West Flash series, where they seem to have pulled heavy elements of this story from, they do a much better job of explaining things.
In that story, Thawne is shown to be pretty much a psycho obsessed Barry Allen Flash fanatic. He finds the cosmic treadmill in an antique shop, and murders the guy who won't sell it to him (showing he's already unhinged). Eobard then uses his entire fortune to give himself Flash powers so he can use the treadmill, travel back in time, and meet Barry Allen.
Only he overshoots, finding himself in the Wally West Flash era. While touring the Flash Museum, he comes across the revelation of himself being the enemy of Barry Allen and, ultimately, being killed by his hero. He snaps. A lifetime of admiration curdles into hate. Hilarity ensues.
Right? "I used to admire you, then I found out my destiny was to be your greatest enemy?" WTF?Back in the Wally West Flash series, where they seem to have pulled heavy elements of this story from, they do a much better job of explaining things.
In that story, Thawne is shown to be pretty much a psycho obsessed Barry Allen Flash fanatic. He finds the cosmic treadmill in an antique shop, and murders the guy who won't sell it to him (showing he's already unhinged). Eobard then uses his entire fortune to give himself Flash powers so he can use the treadmill, travel back in time, and meet Barry Allen.
Only he overshoots, finding himself in the Wally West Flash era. While touring the Flash Museum, he comes across the revelation of himself being the enemy of Barry Allen and, ultimately, being killed by his hero. He snaps. A lifetime of admiration curdles into hate. Hilarity ensues.
Still one of my absolute favorite Wally West runs ever. This took a lot from that story, but really watered it down to simple bulletpoint. That story SHOULD have been the metaplot of the whole first season.
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The plot writers decided to use time travel and s!$~ty sudo--logic to justify bad writing.I'm amused by "sudo--logic".
Logic you have to accept because the speaker has root access?
Could be worse. Could be Sussudio logic.
What I really found lackluster is RF's explanation of why he HATES the Flash so much. It makes no freaking sense to me.Right? "I used to admire you, then I found out my destiny was to be your greatest enemy?" WTF?
Apparently, exposure to the Speed Force—much like exposure to Pym particles without proper protective shielding—causes brain damage:
Reverse Flash + Speed Force = sociopath murderer
Zoom + Speed Force = sociopath murderer
Barry Allen + Speed Force = occasional killer of bad guys, horribly mistreats girlfriends, often displays poor logic
Jay Garrick + Speed Force = often displays poor logic, mopey doofus (plus cellular decay)
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They could have made it interesting if the Reverse Flash wasn't already the Flash's enemy and instead Barry attacking him when he is stranded in time and then telling him that he killed him made him their enemy. If the Reverse Flash still idolized Barry at this point, it would have been a neat trick of how their timelines intertwine non linearly. Instead they waste the opportunity.
They could have made it interesting if the Reverse Flash wasn't already the Flash's enemy and instead Barry attacking him when he is stranded in time and then telling him that he killed him made him their enemy. If the Reverse Flash still idolized Barry at this point, it would have been a neat trick of how their timelines intertwine non linearly. Instead they waste the opportunity.
That's still on the table. We've seen Flash Meet Reverse Flash... We've seen Reverse Flash figure out where Flash comes from... but we haven't seen yet when Reverse Flash FIRST met Flash. Any other conflicts will automatically have Barry Hating Thawne
I hope we see some future shenanigans with Barry and Thawne in Legends of Tomorrow. I found it VERY strange that he'd already fought Flash... but didn't know what time period he was from.
In the old days, Thawne ALWAYS came to the past to mess with Barry. It made this sound like there were a lot of time traveling adventrues where they were all over the place.
Can't stand the horrible write out of Patty, just to avoid another Felicity circumstance and set him up with boring Iris.
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I don't think we have any indication that Iris is going to be the goal of Barry, and do we know that Patty is leaving for real, rather than for a bit, in order to evolve her character into the CSI character she was meant to be?
I like Barry and Patty together, but I want to see Patty's badassery stop backfiring. I can't believe they would write her out for good. Unlike Felicity, Barry and Patty are a couple in the comics.
I don't think we have any indication that Iris is going to be the goal of Barry, and do we know that Patty is leaving for real, rather than for a bit, in order to evolve her character into the CSI character she was meant to be?
I like Barry and Patty together, but I want to see Patty's badassery stop backfiring. I can't believe they would write her out for good. Unlike Felicity, Barry and Patty are a couple in the comics.
You have more faith in the writers than I do. They wrote her off and even gave her a touching farewell. She will never be a love interest for Barry again, and probably wont be brought back into the show.
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You have more faith in the writers than I do. They wrote her off and even gave her a touching farewell. She will never be a love interest for Barry again, and probably wont be brought back into the show.I don't think we have any indication that Iris is going to be the goal of Barry, and do we know that Patty is leaving for real, rather than for a bit, in order to evolve her character into the CSI character she was meant to be?
I like Barry and Patty together, but I want to see Patty's badassery stop backfiring. I can't believe they would write her out for good. Unlike Felicity, Barry and Patty are a couple in the comics.
I thought the same thing about Linda Park, but they brought her back.
Also posted in the Supergirl thread
Good to know that DC likes destroying all continuity they have created.
You have more faith in the writers than I do. They wrote her off and even gave her a touching farewell. She will never be a love interest for Barry again, and probably wont be brought back into the show.I don't think we have any indication that Iris is going to be the goal of Barry, and do we know that Patty is leaving for real, rather than for a bit, in order to evolve her character into the CSI character she was meant to be?
I like Barry and Patty together, but I want to see Patty's badassery stop backfiring. I can't believe they would write her out for good. Unlike Felicity, Barry and Patty are a couple in the comics.
I said no such thing. I simply said we don't have evidence of the contrary. And we certainly don't have evidence that Barry/Iris is going to be a thing again. They aren't making either one more tender or meaningful to each other...they seem like normal, brother/sister/best friends at this point.
It could go either way. I would just be surprised that they only brought Patty in for a few shows and then axed her when she and Barry clearly have excellent chemistry.
I stand by my statement that you have more faith in the writers than I do.
You seem to have poor expectations from them, while I do my best to avoid the constant deluge of spoilers out there and maintain no expectations from them. I'm just basing my speculations off what we've seen happen or foreshadow. It's not a matter of faith in the writers per se, just thoughts on what has been teased and potential directions to take it in. It is entirely possible, even likely, for that not to be the case.
If I could make DC shows stop doing one thing, it would be killing off/burying characters on shows that do not exist within the same canon.
If I could make them stop doing two things, the second would be an immediate ban on the use of 52. Every stupid address, every hotel room, every secret lab, all 52.
I'm lying of course, if I could get them to do one thing, it would be to put out an assassination contract on any one involved in PR releases that are basically just spoilers. I'm so sick of them.
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So I think I have got this season figured out.
The recent poster of Flash holding a lightning bolt plus the Supergirl crossover lead me to the following. This is all speculation on my part but I might be right so Spoilers anyway.
The poster isn’t Flash holding a lightning bolt. It’s Flash grabbing hold of a Lightning bolt.
In the up coming visit to Earth 2 I think Barry will find himself going faster. The team realizes that he is now tapping into the Speed Force of earth 1 and 2. This is the key to defeating Zoom, Barry must travel the multiverse to tap into more and more of the speed force (grabbing the lightning). This trip will include a visit to Supergirl Earth and maybe even <old tv show> Flash earth.
Finale: Flash returns more powerful then he has even been but is afraid of the magnitude of his new speed. As Zoom threatens everyone around him Barry lets go of his fear and becomes the Ultimate Speedster to defeat Zoom
Cliffhanger: Barry can’t slow down. Getting faster and faster he vanishes right before the eyes of friends and family.
Season 3 opener: Barry is walking around the city which is frozen in time, trapped at Super Speed. Meanwhile his friends realize what has happened and come up with a plan to save him. They must Splinter off some of the Speed Force into other people. Due to events these people end up being Jay, Jessy and in a “surprise” twist Wally.
Barry’s conflict for the season is about holding back for fear of going too fast again, while at the same time Wally just wants to keep going faster.
So I think I have got this season figured out.
The recent poster of Flash holding a lightning bolt plus the Supergirl crossover lead me to the following. This is all speculation on my part but I might be right so Spoilers anyway.** spoiler omitted **
I like it.
Only issue:
I like Earth 2 Iris a lot better.
So, en route to Earth-2 we saw: a Flash, an Arrow, Supergirl, Grodd, and a Legion flight ring. Anything else?
Also, on speed dial on the phone at Barry & Iris's house: Eddie, Bruce, Hal and Diana.
