Killing cheesers


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Sovereign Court

Does this kill most cheese builds off?

-25 point build
-Core / APG only assumption (thus synthesist summoners, broodmasters, etc. are banned)
-Above also bans all Magus and Gunslinger builds
-Core races only. No ARG.
-Flat ban on all homebrew, psionics, 3PP, 3.5e etc.


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Define cheese?

Liberty's Edge

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MrSin wrote:
Define cheese?

Yeah. I'm curious myself.


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It'd kill off most of my interest in playing...

What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?


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graystone wrote:
What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?

Psionics might be some of the more balanced and less cheesey of the lot too.

Dark Archive

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By cheese do you mean powerful, optimised character builds who can dominate the game sometimes?

If so, a 25pt Human or Elven Wizard with some metamagic is probably one of the most powerful things in the game and utterly core so... no, no it doesn't remotely. To answer your question.

Try talking to your players and finding a middle ground between what they want to play and what you want to run, if you ask them not to make super optimised characters (and are clear on what that means to you) you might be surprised what a little communication can do instead of arbitrarily trying to limit their options before talking things out.

Also, not a rules question, you'd be better served in the Advice forum.


MrSin wrote:
graystone wrote:
What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?
Psionics might be some of the more balanced and less cheesey of the lot too.

This is true.

Sovereign Court

MrSin wrote:
graystone wrote:
What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?
Psionics might be some of the more balanced and less cheesey of the lot too.

It's also completely 3rd party and not even allowed in PFS..


Actually, I'm having a similar problem with my group. I have a weird mix of 3 complete noobs, two people with some experience, and one straight powergamer. I decided to do some feat reworking to balance things out, and went ahead and made the flavor of the campaign completely clear to everyone (which meant some things had to be banned/altered).

But the other decision I made was more difficult, please give me some help if I'm utterly wrong here. I'm GMing for a new group soon and have made the following decision:

I had to make sure there wasn't a huge power disparity between the veteran and the newbies, so I decided to take a look at the non-core stuff. I already explained how every class but Summoner and Alchemist was out of flavor, and I also didn't want to deal with either of those classes, so core classes only. Then I looked to the spellbook and decided to ban everything that wasn't core with one stipulation: if they want a non-CRB spell, they can ask me and then we can put it in the game. If you do get a non-CRB spell, then NPC's get it too.

The whole point was to make it more friendly for the newbies, who no longer HAVE to sift through huge spell lists, but can if they want to grab a spell or two. This also puts a stop to the powergamer's antics, as he bends the rules and tries to pull some ridiculous stuff, pulling rules from every book on Paizo and D20.com, I wanted to limit everyone's options a little bit but give them the opportunity to expand once the newer players had become comfortable with their resources.

Please do help me out on this, I want to make sure these new guys get acclimated properly without being thrown into the deep end with a dude who already knows everything better than I do.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
graystone wrote:
What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?
Psionics might be some of the more balanced and less cheesey of the lot too.
It's also completely 3rd party and not even allowed in PFS..

What's your point? 3rd party =/= imbalanced or gamebreaking, and dreamscarred press's psionics is probably neither of those. Quiet a bit of core pathfinder is considered imbalanced, which is why I asked you to define cheese.


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Fetchystick wrote:
I already explained how every class but Summoner and Alchemist was out of flavor, and I also didn't want to deal with either of those classes, so core classes only.

Whats wrong with Alchemy?

The Alchemist is one of the better balanced classes in the game.


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Why do you have to avoid a power imbalance?

This is a real question. It is not necessarily the case that it matters hugely to the players who aren't straight powergamers. They may be just fine with roleplaying for fun and admiring the Big Numbers from the person who likes making big numbers.


Scavion wrote:
Fetchystick wrote:
I already explained how every class but Summoner and Alchemist was out of flavor, and I also didn't want to deal with either of those classes, so core classes only.

Whats wrong with Alchemy?

The Alchemist is one of the better balanced classes in the game.

Do enlighten me actually. I've never had the experience of playing as or even with an alchemist. For real, I'd 100% like to know why an alchemist is so balanced because I'd like to understand it well enough to put into my campaign.


Fetchystick wrote:
Do enlighten me actually. I've never had the experience of playing as or even with an alchemist. For real, I'd 100% like to know why an alchemist is so balanced because I'd like to understand it well enough to put into my campaign.

Its a 3/4 BAB class who's not a spellcaster but has a number of buffing options. At worst they NOVA and burn their bombs for the day ASAP or you have a perma hasted invisible beast morph/vivisectionist with six natural attacks and pounce. A buffed up alchemist can be a real monster in melee. Usually neither of those happen though.

Compare to say, a wizard who decides he wants to conquer the world using his magic or a pounce charger superstitious/beast totem barbarian.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
graystone wrote:
What 'cheese' is worth cutting off the vast majority of books?
Psionics might be some of the more balanced and less cheesey of the lot too.
It's also completely 3rd party and not even allowed in PFS..

3rd party is cheese? And what you suggested isn't allowed in PFS either so I'm REALLY confused on what your point is.


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Well, it'll kill most cheesers because coming out that harsh will kill off most players' desire to play. Suthainn said it well: Talk to your players before trying to ban everything. You look less like a tyrant, you'll get more respect from your players, and they will be able to play the character they want to rather than being forced into a rather restrictive list of choices.


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Fetchystick wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Fetchystick wrote:
I already explained how every class but Summoner and Alchemist was out of flavor, and I also didn't want to deal with either of those classes, so core classes only.

Whats wrong with Alchemy?

The Alchemist is one of the better balanced classes in the game.

Do enlighten me actually. I've never had the experience of playing as or even with an alchemist. For real, I'd 100% like to know why an alchemist is so balanced because I'd like to understand it well enough to put into my campaign.

They're psuedo but not really casters. They can't take Craft Wondrous Item and break the game's wealth system like most casters outside of weird tricks like picking up a SLA and taking it that way but everyone can do that so...

They can't do it all but do well in their specialties. Outside of certain archetype combinations(Beastmorph/Vivisectionist, just don't let someone take them together), they make competent melee combatants without being overpoweringly so compared to martials.

Rangedwise, Bombs are useful but limited. It's incredibly easy to run out. With discovery support they make versatile secondline combatants with their status effect bombs. It's easy to nova with bombs with certain combinations but the 4 encounters a day adventure paradigm keeps that strategy mitigated.

Their Achilles Heel is their Will Save which will never be great without heavy investment.

They make solid team players with the Infusion discovery which lets others drink the extracts they prepare. Their extracts are versatile due to being able to act like a Wizard does and keep slots open and can prepare them in a minutes time. They start with Brew Potion which helps ease the stress on whomever is keeping the party going with cheap healing potions.

TLDR: Alchemists are like Bards in that they make team play more effective and desirable by virtue of being in the party. The Alchemist player is encouraged by their class features to share the love around to get the most out of their abilities. Seeing someone drink your standard action 1st level Enlarge Person extract and stomp face is incredibly satisfying. Your party thanking you and coming to you for potions is also satisfying.


seebs wrote:

Why do you have to avoid a power imbalance?

This is a real question. It is not necessarily the case that it matters hugely to the players who aren't straight powergamers. They may be just fine with roleplaying for fun and admiring the Big Numbers from the person who likes making big numbers.

I'm just trying to make it easier for the newer players to navigate. Don't forget, I'm letting the powergamer add spells as well (as long as he doesn't try to dump the whole list on me at once), and maybe this system could let them explore and learn about specific spells in the non-CRB that could help them out with interesting effects.

I've played with this guy before, and he's damn good at the game, but I don't know if I can trust him to roleplay. I haven't seen any real roleplay come out of him, and if we have a guy in a roleplay group who isn't buying it and focuses only on the numbers, I don't know how that will affect the group dynamic.

Thanks for all the advice so far, maybe I have been a bit too strict a GM...


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The title suggests you are trying to kill your players.


alchemicGenius wrote:
Well, it'll kill most cheesers because coming out that harsh will kill off most players' desire to play. Suthainn said it well: Talk to your players before trying to ban everything. You look less like a tyrant, you'll get more respect from your players, and they will be able to play the character they want to rather than being forced into a rather restrictive list of choices.

This is great. I gave them the banlist information way in advance and said to talk to me if there's anything they want to change so they can play a particular character. There's still a huge amount of time before we can actually start (because of scheduling conflicts) but I'll have to talk to them in more detail about it. If someone is particularly disappointed because they can't play a thing that they want, I'll gladly make an exception. I'm a balance freak, but maybe I should try to repress that a bit more as a DM.


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Rpg golden rule : everyone have fun at the table.

Thats your primary job. All the rest is fluff and puff whit candy as an excuse to relax and have fun. My neighbors use beer instead. I like fishing and joke telling or outright nonsense and gaming for the same result.
Have fun. Enjoy the time spent whit your group and plan your next BBEG to epic fail after a good fight.

Shadow Lodge

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Rocks.


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The best way to deal with percieved cheese (because it is a perception issue) is form a social contract with your players.

One key thing to remember is a crb wizard at 15 pt buy is stronger than anything you might ban.


Amen


Mojorat wrote:
a crb wizard at 15 pt buy is stronger than anything you might ban.

LOL Sad but true...


If you have to ban things to prevent cheese, you've already lost.

The point at which you can bring balance to the game is when you talk with the players about what will make for a fun game that everyone enjoys.

Once you're to the point of banning things because players will abuse them, it is too late, and as noted, CRB wizards are insane with skilled play.


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Fetchystick wrote:
This is great. I gave them the banlist information way in advance and said to talk to me if there's anything they want to change so they can play a particular character. There's still a huge amount of time before we can actually start (because of scheduling conflicts) but I'll have to talk to them in more detail about it. If someone is particularly disappointed because they can't play a thing that they want, I'll gladly make an exception. I'm a balance freak, but maybe I should try to repress that a bit more as a DM.

Well, as long as you keep communication open like that, it should be all good. I wouldn't worry too much about your group's optimizer unless they have been problematic and unreasonable in the past. I think really the only classes I'd look out for is maybe the summoner for the new players. Contrary to what a lot of people say, I don't think it's an overpowered class (Wizard beats it out any day of the week if you're clever enough), though the bookwork for one can be overwhelming for a new guy. Alchemists are actually a really nice class for someone who doesn't quite know what they want to do because their class features support a myriad of play styles (ranged combat, melee combat and secondary support "casting"). When it comes down to it though, as long as everyone's having fun, you're doing it right.


alchemicGenius wrote:
Alchemists are actually a really nice class for someone who doesn't quite know what they want to do because their class features support a myriad of play styles (ranged combat, melee combat and secondary support "casting").

Alchemist can also be really awful because they're split in so many directions.

Grand Lodge

the real issue here is not about "Cheese" but the perception of character builds a Good DM will be able to adjust any game to all levels and styles of play.

Lazy DM's usually call everything "Cheese"

First i would advise looking at your player group. if you have a bunch of players that will make optimized characters then optimize to suit. if you have a mix of players have a mix of challengers. give different characters something else to do in combat. outside of combat most "cheese" characters are useless so use situations that make them use skills they are not proficient in. they will either diversify and therefor stop being cheesy or they will find those encounters difficult.

Lantern Lodge

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If pointbuy is concern, why not use an ability scores array?
You get to control the ability score distribution and prevent things like stat dumping.

You can even give a series of arrays with different pointbuys, for example:

14,14,14,14,13,12 - 25 points for an even distributed array

16,14,14,12,12,10 - 24 points for 1 stat boosted, even distributed array

18,13,12,10,10,8 - 21 points for a 1 stat maxed array

...etc

So you can help MAD classes or give players that pick a more even distributed array of ability scores a boost.

BTW, the above is just a suggestion, you can surely decide on having arrays that are balanced in terms of pointbuy for everyone.

Grand Lodge

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Lets see.

You want to prevent cheese, so you are giving the power gamer 25 point buy caster class, with license to cherry pick spells, while banning anything that could possibly compete with him....

Are you sure you understand what cheese looks like?

Silver Crusade

Well I have a game where the only book I am allowing is the Core Rule book. That's it.

Ability scores: Roll 4d6x6 drop lowest assigned as desired.

My players are happy with the game. They just finished investigating Auntie Baldwin's House of Recovery.

I have one

elven cleric of Iori

Human Rogue

Human Paladin

Gnome Sorcerer

One of my players, the one with the gnome sorcerer, wanted to use the "False Focus" feat. I explained to him, that the other three were starting out, and all they had access to was the core rule book, and I didn't think it was fair to allow him access to something the other players didn't have access to.

He explained his "conman idea" using wands etc to mimic casting spells. So I suggested that we could simply allow him to use his bluff skill which he already has to do so.

So my players are enjoying their characters.


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Cheese is subjective so it really depends on your group and this is not a rules question.


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Fetchystick wrote:

Actually, I'm having a similar problem with my group. I have a weird mix of 3 complete noobs, two people with some experience, and one straight powergamer. I decided to do some feat reworking to balance things out, and went ahead and made the flavor of the campaign completely clear to everyone (which meant some things had to be banned/altered).

But the other decision I made was more difficult, please give me some help if I'm utterly wrong here. I'm GMing for a new group soon and have made the following decision:

I had to make sure there wasn't a huge power disparity between the veteran and the newbies, so I decided to take a look at the non-core stuff. I already explained how every class but Summoner and Alchemist was out of flavor, and I also didn't want to deal with either of those classes, so core classes only. Then I looked to the spellbook and decided to ban everything that wasn't core with one stipulation: if they want a non-CRB spell, they can ask me and then we can put it in the game. If you do get a non-CRB spell, then NPC's get it too.

The whole point was to make it more friendly for the newbies, who no longer HAVE to sift through huge spell lists, but can if they want to grab a spell or two. This also puts a stop to the powergamer's antics, as he bends the rules and tries to pull some ridiculous stuff, pulling rules from every book on Paizo and D20.com, I wanted to limit everyone's options a little bit but give them the opportunity to expand once the newer players had become comfortable with their resources.

Please do help me out on this, I want to make sure these new guys get acclimated properly without being thrown into the deep end with a dude who already knows everything better than I do.

Co-opt the powergamer into helping build he newbies' characters. Note that I said help build, not just hand them a completed character sheet. Make sure that you know what concepts the newbies have first so that you can be sure that they are getting what they asked for and not just a random uber monster.

This should ensure that the newbies get effective characters and they should have some elements of system mastery explained to them. Now they will know why some choices work and some are simply non viable.


My suggestion is to keep it to PRD-only books (which allows everyone to peruse them online if need be, so non powergamers can find things), and allow the retraining rules for feats, skills, spells, archetypes and class abilities. This will allow your less experienced players to course correct their characters and really take time to develop the 'schtick' they want to play (and not be dead-ended). The powergamer inevitably already knows what they want to play.

As someone else mentioned, having strong encounters incentivizes the powergamer to help the others. When you send a few level-appropriate encounters their way back to back, and they have to drain all their single use items just to survive, the powergamer is going to want to have a strong and balanced party (if only to avoid bankruptcy).

Dark Archive

You said the powergamer likes to bend the rules. Sounds to me the problem is he cheats instead of optimizing.

Are you offering 25(very high) point buy to persuade people notto dump stat? Is that what you call cheese? If you are biased against dump stats, you have to blatantly say, no dump stating.

I think you are just asking for trouble by giving people so many point buy. Consider asking the experienced players and the deeply into it player to try to tone down the.optimizing a bit and/or use a smaller point buy. Kind.of like handicapping themself to keep the new people from feeling like they are way in over their head compared to the others.

Not everyone Cates much for the character acting aspect of the game. If you are worried how the power gamer will fit in in that reguard. Make it a point to ask them to make an effort.

Ask yourself if you actually like PF. It us a heavy rules based system. Are you wanting to play PF or just has an easier time to recruit such players as they easier to find? You may want to search for another system.

As much as I hate to say it. Some players just don't fit with a particular group. I have had cases where I realised I was not having fun with them, they weren't having fun with me, it was best for all concerned that I split off.


How is this harsh? Frankly, the points are too high.


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FLite wrote:

Lets see.

You want to prevent cheese, so you are giving the power gamer 25 point buy caster class, with license to cherry pick spells, while banning anything that could possibly compete with him....

This.

I recently played a level 1 wizard at 25 PB and already at this level I dominated the game. And the best part: He was build for flavour. Sure, this early it wasn't by using spells but by using his school ability and the advantages of high point buy.

Build:

If anyone is interested some things on his build:

Int>strength>con>dex>wis>cha
Half-Orc with chain fighter and sacred tattoo alternate racials.
Earth school wizard
Pig familiar
Fate's favoured trait

What was he like: He looked and behaved like a peasant wandering about with his little pig friend and his Flail at his side.

Combat: The acid cloud school power is rather strong at low levels. Coupled with some spells and the ability to hit hard in melee (good strength and +1hit and dmg to opponents standing on the ground) he had an answer to everything the GM threw at us.


As other said, everyone should have fun. If a player is powergaming, talk to him, see the problem.

Anyway, every build has its flaws anyway.

I loved the "GM's guide to Challenging Encounters" (don't have the link here, but it's on the forum), it will probably help you balance your encounters for your players.

Basically: Everyone should have fun and shine in game from times to times... But don't always go easy on them. Your player is the best sniper in the word ? Make enemies go melee fighting to change the pace of things.

You world should adapt to you party. If they mass-murder, one day or another they'll attract more powerful to stop them. Intelligent enemy, and even better mastermind nemesis will try to collect informations and use them against them.


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Read this as "-25 Point Buy", as in, a negative amount.

Yeah, that should do the trick.

Welcome to Sandpoint. Your characters all keel over and die. Would you like to play again Y/N


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Read this as "-25 Point Buy", as in, a negative amount.

Yeah, that should do the trick.

Welcome to Sandpoint. Your characters all keel over and die. Would you like to play again Y/N

I bet they all died of dysentery.


Or madness. Madness is cool!

For other advices, I like to stay Core (books from the PRD), and add some Chronicles stuff I can adapt to my world. 20 pts builds too. For now, didn't have to complain too much (except those damn eastern weapons!), and things are working pretty smoothly.

But it's the player-GM relation that will do the trick.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Does this kill most cheese builds off?

-25 point build
-Core / APG only assumption (thus synthesist summoners, broodmasters, etc. are banned)
-Above also bans all Magus and Gunslinger builds
-Core races only. No ARG.
-Flat ban on all homebrew, psionics, 3PP, 3.5e etc.

This fails to deal with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Oracles or Sorcerers so to answer your question, No.

Hilariously it also leaves persisent spell, dazing spell and spell perfection in play.


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I'll still maintain that the "OMG!!! Its so overpowered!!!" is down to either the GM or the Player not actually using the feat/class feature/item/spell/Baba-Ji love specialist as written correctly.

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