I'm a level 12 druid pack master. I run with 2 wolf companions. I've taken boon companion twice and applied it to each of my companions trying to keep them both close to my level. At 12 they are equivalent to 10 and 10 (effective druid levels). Instead of having them become fall further and further behind, I want to awaken one and have it become my cohort. The remaining companion will then get put back to full power and the other levels will get a new companion that will be useful out of combat (like a hawk to scout with or something).
How will stats change once I awaken my companion?
Will it still be large?
Will it lose the feats it has gained while traveling with me?
What about the ability points it has gained?
What about class levels, it says that awakened animals gain class levels, but how many? Her effective character level will be 10 via my leadership score.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken
Here is what I think happens:
It restarts at level 2 as a wolf with wolf stats but a d10 for hit die instead of 8 and higher cha/int. Then I apply 8 levels of whatever class I want it to have (leaning towards druid or ranger). When it hits 6 Hit die it gets large and gains +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.
At level 10 it will be 2 wolf, 8 (class) It will have 2 attributes to spend while leveling and spend feats at 3,5,7, and 9.
Or if possible we just ignore the 2 levels in wolf all together and give it 10 levels in the class just using the wolf stats as a baseline.
The other way I see it could be done is that it keeps the levels of animal companion (9) and gains 1 level in ranger/druid. This would take much less rebuilding and lets the wolf keep its history a bit more.
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Isn't this covered pretty well in the Animal Archive player companion?
no, it talks about how they would likely act and what classes they would likely pick. as for rules all it says is:
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
"An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount." It will not gain the benefits of being an animal companion and neither will you. You may treat it as what an awakened animal would be from the bestiary/MM.
I'd probably keep the (animal) levels, stats and feats on an awakened animal the same as the level it was awakened, with advancements from levelling after that. A level 7 Wolf is not going to go from a Large animal to a Normal sized one just because it's been awakened, is it?
My suggestion would be to base your cohort on an Awakened Dire Wolf. Thus it will remain Large and have more HD than a regular wolf.
This helps maintain the idea that it is your former animal companion.
But the Awakened animal doesn't keep any of the AC bonuses, since it is no longer an AC.
There is a post about this on the Ask James Jacobs thread; basically, the now Awakened former Animal Companion keeps all the stats it had previously, including size, HD, Feats, etc, gains 2 additional HD but also loses all abilities from being an Animal Companion that aren't basically physical in nature, like Link, Share Spells, Devotion, etc.
Thereafter, you can gain XP under the cohort rules and advance the now cohort with character class levels.
The old HD do not change, but the new HD become based on being a Magical Beast; nothing like BAB, etc change at all except for the new Additional HD gained as a Magical Beast. From then on, use advancement of the class levels the Awakened Animal chooses.
The animal doesn't automatically gain levels right then and there except the 2 HD from being Awakened; it starts with its new Awakened Animal HD then starts to gain XP to gain levels (that is if you are level enough to have the new Awakened Animal as a cohort to begin with).
So it would be a class level 9 animal companion level 1 Ranger once it hits level 10? Basically losing its animal companion class abilities (share spells, link, devotion & evasion) for not being an animal companion any more?
I'd probably keep the (animal) levels, stats and feats on an awakened animal the same as the level it was awakened, with advancements from levelling after that. A level 7 Wolf is not going to go from a Large animal to a Normal sized one just because it's been awakened, is it?
This is what I was thinking too, for flavor this wouldn't make sense. But, doesn't a wolf get bigger when it's advanced beyond 6 or so anyway?
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There is a post about this on the Ask James Jacobs thread; basically, the now Awakened former Animal Companion keeps all the stats it had previously, including size, HD, Feats, etc, gains 2 additional HD but also loses all abilities from being an Animal Companion that aren't basically physical in nature, like Link, Share Spells, Devotion, etc.
Thereafter, you can gain XP under the cohort rules and advance the now cohort with character class levels.
The old HD do not change, but the new HD become based on being a Magical Beast; nothing like BAB, etc change at all except for the new Additional HD gained as a Magical Beast. From then on, use advancement of the class levels the Awakened Animal chooses.
The animal doesn't automatically gain levels right then and there except the 2 HD from being Awakened; it starts with its new Awakened Animal HD then starts to gain XP to gain levels (that is if you are level enough to have the new Awakened Animal as a cohort to begin with).
That's an absolutely terrible idea. The abuses that would cause from anyone who takes 5 minutes and thinks about it are insane.
If folks are complaining about what 1 animal companion can do in combat now imagine a druid running around with 10 of them all with a free level in ranger.
The wording of Awaken pretty specifically says that only one obeys the caster of Awaken at a given time, unless they gain benefits/have a vested interest in doing so. You could awaken multiple Animal Companions, but all you'd achieve generally is having a bunch of sentient animals with class levels and no obligation to help you. You've created a fully functioning animal community. Good for you. Only one will fight to defend you.
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The text for awaken has a loophole you could drive a truck through.
Here, I'll show you.
no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.
Simply put it in their best interest (or more likely use a charm/dominate monster) spell and have as many as you want.
I can see a druid taking an entire wolfpack as animal companions one at a time then awakening them and having them protect his forest/their hunting grounds.Worse yet, have them take adventurer classes and guide them in seeking their fortune and way in the world as a benevolent mentor.A druid with a decent diplomacy/bluff score and a believable story can get an entire forest of awakened critters on his side.
A pack of 9 super intelligent, super wolves with 9 HD and class levels is
what, a CR 14+ challenge the druid can do within 2 weeks of hitting 9th level ?
Hmmm... That might make a good adventure for my PC's.
<scribbles notes>
That's an absolutely terrible idea. The abuses that would cause from anyone who takes 5 minutes and thinks about it are insane.
If folks are complaining about what 1 animal companion can do in combat now imagine a druid running around with 10 of them all with a free level in ranger.
How would this be any different than making a whole bunch of friends and teaching them to fight (gain class levels)?
I'm not counting on the awakened wolf to follow me due to awakening it. I count on it being my cohort because I'm its friend and I took the leadership feat.
A druid with a decent diplomacy/bluff score and a believable story can get an entire forest of awakened critters on his side.
The same way anyone could get an entire humanoid village on their side, training for the "evil" that is coming.
In fact, couldn't a druid do this already without the awakening spell? Just release and get a new animal companion constantly until they are all the higher level. That's really what the question is: "What happens when an animal companion is released?"
Hmmm... That might make a good adventure for my PC's.
<scribbles notes>
Yes, yes it does...
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Animal companion is a class feature. Once you release or sever the bond or change things so its not an animal the bond is severed.
Take bestiary stats and apply awakened.
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Animal companion is a class feature. Once you release or sever the bond or change things so its not an animal the bond is severed.
Take bestiary stats and apply awakened.
This. A familiar reverts to normal and an animal companion reverts to normal. It doesn't keep the amazing bonuses for being a companion after it no longer is one. Plain old wolf with awaken on it.
So, once an animal companion is released it forgets everything it learned while adventuring beside the druid? There is no flavor to support this, nor is there any ruling I can find.
But, you vote is to go back to being a wolf level 2 and take 8 levels of ranger?
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So, once an animal companion is released it forgets everything it learned while adventuring beside the druid? There is no flavor to support this, nor is there any ruling I can find.
But, you vote is to go back to being a wolf level 2 and take 8 levels of ranger?
It work both ways. If you want a different companion you can release the old one and the new one you call will have all the benefits of a AC appropriate to a druid of your level, even if it has never gone on adventures and never gained experience. I would like clearer rules about what happen to an AC when a druid dies or dismiss it, but it is clear that, rule wise, it will lose all the benefits that the druid gave it. What is not clear4 is if it will happen immediately, after some minute/hour/day or what. I.e. if the druid dies, the AC revert immediately to his original form and probably dies as now it is a relatively weak creature (or if you are a low level druid with a tiger companion, it actually become more powerful)? It will maintain its abilityes till the end of the day and no more? or until the druid is raised/reincarned of that option is no more applicable?
Stats before gear: (Awakened rolls of 11int 4cha)
Str 25, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
AC: 22 (10+ Dex 3+ Nat Armor 10- 1 large)
Health (9d8+1d10+50)
Saves 12/10/4
Bite: +15 (2d6+10+Trip)
Power Attack: +13 (2d6+16+Trip)
Feats: Weapon Focus (bite), Power attack, Improved Natural Weapon, combat reflexes, +1 feat
Ranger: +2 Favored enemy
Str 21, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
AC 15 (Dex 2 + Nat Armor 4- 1 Large)
Health (10d10+50)
Saves 12/9/3
Bite: +15 (2d6+7+Trip)
Power Attack: +12 (2d6+16+ Trip)
Feats: Improved Natural Weapon, Power attack, Weapon Focus (bite), combat reflexes, +3 feats
Ranger: +4/+2 Favored Enemy (Shared as a move action)
Spells: 2- 1st level // 1- 2nd level
It's interesting to see what the difference would be. 2 Feats, better favored enemy vs higher str/dex.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, once an animal companion is released it forgets everything it learned while adventuring beside the druid? There is no flavor to support this, nor is there any ruling I can find.
But, you vote is to go back to being a wolf level 2 and take 8 levels of ranger?
The game has rules, and it doesn't much care about flavor, reality, or anything else that isn't a rule.
So, if it has these rules, where are they? I can't find anything about what happens to an animal companion that has been dismissed.
When open to interpretation, I tend to go with realism and flavor rather than not.
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AS stated here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k5tw?Dismissing-Animal-Companions#3
The way you can make an animal minion that retains its enhancements after it stops hanging out with you is via the awaken spell.
But, if he maintain his physical advancements... And want to have it as your cohort, you must have the pre-reqs to keep him your cohort, Lvl 12 (Lvl 10 + Awaken) requires 17 of Leadership score. Counting the -2 for having a companion, your level 12, you still need a +7 Charisma (or others Leadership) bonus to reach the minimum requirement to maintain your ex-companion Awakened wolf.
There is a good explained text here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken
PS: In my mind, Awaken and ex-Companion, should be Templates.
Stats before gear: (Awakened rolls of 11int 4cha)
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
It's interesting to see what the difference would be. 2 Feats, better favored enemy vs higher str/dex.
just to be clear. when you awaken it it does not magically gain 8 class levels. You have to drag it along for it to earn those levels. That is why Cohorts have a section on how to award them xp.
by that post and the Ask James Jacobs thread, it's pretty clear that it will keep its stats from being an Animal Companion. Also it gains 2 HD (I kept missing that).
So, I'm 12 the wolf is effectively 9 (10th druid level = 9 HD for the AC) so it will be 11th level. We will likely hit 13 during this quest so, a level 11 cohort should be perfect. It will have the same stats/skills/feats prior to being awakened (+int/cha), gain a feat for hitting 11, and will take its first class level at 12.
When dealing with magic, I go with realism too.
That's just common sense.
What else would you go with if rules don't exist for it?
just to be clear. when you awaken it it does not magically gain 8 class levels. You have to drag it along for it to earn those levels. That is why Cohorts have a section on how to award them xp.
I understand that is how it is supposed to be.
So, I'm 12 the wolf is effectively 9 (10th druid level = 9 HD for the AC) so it will be 11th level. We will likely hit 13 during this quest so, a level 11 cohort should be perfect. It will have the same stats/skills/feats prior to being awakened (+int/cha), gain a feat for hitting 11, and will take its first class level at 12.
In my opinion, a 9 HD Awakened former Animal Companion is perfect as a 11th level Cohort Base creature. It usually works out perfectly for an Awakened former Animal Companion to be 2 cohort levesl higher, unless they can fly; if they can fly, I add another Base Cohort level to the mix.
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What else would you go with if rules don't exist for it?When dealing with magic, I go with realism too.
That's just common sense.
Balance, and flavor, I suppose.
You must see the hilarity of referring to "realism" and "common sense", when adjudicating results of magical effects, in a fantasy world.
It's not an attack, but just a general observation.
by that post and the Ask James Jacobs thread, it's pretty clear that it will keep its stats from being an Animal Companion.It is? Because it was pretty clear he would lose the AC benefit and gain the Awaken benefit to me.
The way you can make an animal minion that retains its enhancements after it stops hanging out with you is via the awaken spell.
enhancements are the stat buffs, level increases, feats, etc that it obtained while being an animal companion. So, if the only way to retain them is to awaken them, then it seems awakening them would let them keep them.
Yup; it retains everything but would lose the things that depend on that link with you. The new HD affect hp and BAB and saves as normal. And yes, you'd need Leadership for it to be a cohort... but chances are good an awakened animal companion will be too powerful for that, frankly. The best bet is to simply let the awakened animal companion (aka the GM, who now controls it) make its own decisions.
Pretty sure I've got the best answer I'm going to find. Thanks for the help everyone.
What else would you go with if rules don't exist for it?When dealing with magic, I go with realism too.
That's just common sense.
Balance, and flavor, I suppose.
You must see the hilarity of referring to "realism" and "common sense", when adjudicating results of magical effects, in a fantasy world.
It's not an attack, but just a general observation.
I understand the "Why are you trying to use realism when, you know, dragons..." argument, but when the rules aren't clear logic needs to step in and fill in the gaps. The laws of physics aren't thrown out the window just because of the existence of magic.
I mentioned flavor along with realism, but I guess it's a point of view on how you see the bond between the druid and their animal companion. I see more like a strong friendship than a magical link. The AC is getting stronger fighting along side you because it is gaining xp the same as you are (but behind the scenes). I don't see how he would forget to fight once he left your side...
If it is nothing more than a magical link then I guess shrinking and forgetting how to fight would make sense when dismissing an animal companion. I guess in this case the druid is spending constant energy to keep his AC powered up?
Balance is a fair thing to translate a rule on, even in this unbalanced system. As, I've shown above either translation would have been about the same balance.
Sorry I'm late to the debate, but I do have to agree with Rylar's last post. I see the bond between Druids/Rangers and their animal companions as one of a genuine companionship, not one of magical compulsion.
Balance is an important thing to consider, but ultimately there is no "right or wrong." As it says in the CRB, p. 9, under the heading "The Most Important Rule" - "...While they [the rules] are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs."
In the end, it's up to him and his GM. If the GM says the companion abilities are magical and dependent on the Druid, I guess it becomes an Awakened Wolf from the Bestiary. If the GM agrees that the relationship is more conventional, and the wolf gaind it's bonuses from XP, I see no reason the wolf should be de-leveled simply because it became sentient.
Either way, it should make for some very interesting roleplay, and that's the most important thing... ^_^
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What else would you go with if rules don't exist for it?When dealing with magic, I go with realism too.
That's just common sense.
Balance, and flavor, I suppose.
You must see the hilarity of referring to "realism" and "common sense", when adjudicating results of magical effects, in a fantasy world.
It's not an attack, but just a general observation.
I understand the "Why are you trying to use realism when, you know, dragons..." argument, but when the rules aren't clear logic needs to step in and fill in the gaps. The laws of physics aren't thrown out the window just because of the existence of magic.
I mentioned flavor along with realism, but I guess it's a point of view on how you see the bond between the druid and their animal companion. I see more like a strong friendship than a magical link. The AC is getting stronger fighting along side you because it is gaining xp the same as you are (but behind the scenes). I don't see how he would forget to fight once he left your side...
If it is nothing more than a magical link then I guess shrinking and forgetting how to fight would make sense when dismissing an animal companion. I guess in this case the druid is spending constant energy to keep his AC powered up?
Balance is a fair thing to translate a rule on, even in this unbalanced system. As, I've shown above either translation would have been about the same balance.
By that logic, when you call a new AC after yours has died or been sent away it will be the basic version of the AC or at most the standard animal form instead of a Ac appropriate to your level.
Animal companions are not templated creatures from the bestiary. There is nothing to remove, and no way to turn them into the non-AC version of themselves, because such a creature does not exist. A wolf AC is not an ordinary wolf to which something has been done, mechanically. Ex-ACs, whether they are awakened or turned into skeletons, are treated the same way as any other creatures. Start with their character sheet, apply the stated changes, done.
Diego, the RP explanation there is that due to your renown as a highly skilled Druid or Ranger, you attracted a far more powerful companion than you did when you first obtained an Animal Companion. Much like the Leadership Feat and Cohorts.
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I'm with Mojorat, Fake Healer, and Blackbloodtroll on this one.
If you want a 'realism' explanation, here goes. You are a druid. You get power by plugging into this nebulous, partially sentient battery of power. You have to do (or not do) certain things to maintain that power feed. The animal companion plugs into you and channels part of that power, becoming something more in the process. Without that connection, it loses those things, like an unplugged appliance.
Or think of it like steroids. You take them and work out and you bulk up. If you work out without them, you don't get as big. If you take them and don't work out, you have the problems without the benefits. An animal companion is on steroids. It has the juice (druid power) and the workout (adventuring). An animal without the juice may still get bigger (hit dice) from working out (adventuring) but not as quickly or even as big. An animal companion with juice (druid power) whose druid doesn't work out (adventure) doesn't really change. If an animal loses it's juice (druid power) it will lose it's mass over time and no amount of working out will allow him to keep all of it... unless he finds an alternate source of juice/supplements (class levels) from a new workout (solo/other adventuring).
...I am not, in any way, condoning the use of anabolic steroids.
Like most analogies, I'm pretty sure you can poke all the holes in them you want, as they're rushed and imperfect, but you get the idea. An animal companion doesn't learn things. It's getting it's power from the druid. Without the druid, no power. An animal companion is a CLASS FEATURE after all.
It's hard to reconcile the mechanics of animal companions with anything that makes real-world sense. A high level druid can find an endless number of super-horses, each one powerful enough to kill an elephant. Why not sell them and use the money to build a nature reserve? I think I favor the idea that they lose their bonuses along with their link with the PC.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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endless number of super-horses ... Why not sell them and use the money to build a nature reserve? I think I favor the idea that they lose their bonuses along with their link with the PC.
If it worked that way you could buy them as Ex-Animal Companions's, you could Wild Shape into any level of Animal Companion (because they are not Templated), and any number of other strange interactions other than Awakening one.
Te'Shen- As I said if you see them getting magical energies from the druid then I can totally see why you would say they shrink back down to "normal creatures". For my translation of the flavor it doesn't make sense.
Matthew- I feel the same here about leadership. Selling your cohorts into slavery will effect your leadership. If you do it, you wont be able to find a new cohort. In the same way, if you dismiss your animal companion to sell him into slavery you wont be able to find a new one. Also you probably wont be able to cast any spells or wildshape. Paladin's aren't the only class that can "fall".
James- Sure, wildshape into a level 10000 bear for all I care, you still only gain the stats wildshape gives you...
Who said anything about slavery? If ac kept their power everyone in mygroup would have a pet tiger and we would all ride super horses... in fact ill have two dire tigers will take about 10 days for 10 animals... because th ability to train a super horse in 24 hours isn't mystical.....
I think I favor the idea that they lose their bonuses along with their link with the PC.
If you take away an AC's abilities, what exactly do you think is left?
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Diego, the RP explanation there is that due to your renown as a highly skilled Druid or Ranger, you attracted a far more powerful companion than you did when you first obtained an Animal Companion. Much like the Leadership Feat and Cohorts.
Because an normal animal, with an animal intelligence, care about my renown and fame, right?
And because the wood are full of 7 HD, large wolves for my Druid to call them.Where are those exceptional creatures when they aren't in a druid/ranger/cavalier service? I can call them with a day long ritual, so the aren't so rare. But I never meet one when wandering around. Your RP explanation don't work.
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TL;DR Answer: Animal Archive may explicit the rules of Awaken Animal Companion thing. Core rules have nothing about it. JJ said "the animal companion becomes a magical beast and retains its stats it gained as your animal companion".
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Why do people tend to exagerate the oposite PoV to ridicularize the whole idea?
Is selling Ex-AC Awakened a Druid related action? Neither an evil Druid do that. By doing that the Druid would lost his power due the "ceases to revere nature". What is this have to be with the Leadership feat?
James Jacobs said (at least) twice what heappen when an AC Awakes by that spell. I understand that those answers must be included in the Official FAQ, since Awake the AC is a common idea of druids. Remember that after you Awaken the AC he become an NPC, so you must spend some Diplomacy or Leadership to keep him around.
Besides:
One of the surest ways to complicate the relationship between an adventurer and her animal companion is to cast awaken on the beast. The moment the spell takes effect, an animal companion ceases to be a class feature, and instead becomes a person—an NPC whose Intelligence has increased by 3d6 (potentially making it as smart as or smarter than the caster), and who has an increased Charisma score and knows at least one spoken language.
An adventurer considering awakening his animal companion should keep in mind the awaken spell's potential drawbacks. Most pointedly, awakened animals can no longer serve as companions, and the character must follow the rules for Leadership if he wishes to take the animal as an official cohort. Further, an intelligent animal can be difficult to manage. After awakening, animals are predisposed to be friendly toward whoever cast the spell— in this case, presumably their masters. Yet if an animal was mistreated during its time as a companion, or is treated poorly after its awakening, that friendliness is mixed with a sense of confusion that can last anywhere from a few moments to a few hours as the animal reconciles the abuse with the great gift it's been given. Since awaken is not a charm or mind-control spell, there's nothing to prevent awakened animals from resenting mistreatment in the same way a normal person of their intelligence level would, and they're no more inclined to be automatically servile than anyone else. More than one careless druid has found her awakened animal companion refusing to follow instructions, leaving to pursue its own goals, or even seeking vengeance for its former “enslavement.”
Let it go people.
Unless it's an PFS game (which the JJ answer and Animal Archive could embase enough IMHO), I see no problem with maintain your Awaken AC as a Cohort.
Mojorat- How are you getting extra animal companions? you aren't releasing any. Releasing an animal companion isn't just a mechanic it's an action you take. You let them go back into the wild.
RJ- you keep the extra str/dex, natural armor, Feats, Skills (though since it has higher int it gets many more), ability improvements, and hit dice.
Diego- One of 2 things. The day long ritual calls upon a "stronger" version of the animal that you otherwise are unlikely to find. Or your druidic magics find the animal and transform him into the appropriately powered animal companion (likely though aging effects imo).
I used to quote JJ to bolster my points, but I've been burned by that way of thinking quite enough. I would consider his input as any other experienced gamer's educated opinion. Do not assume that his thinking on this issue is better or more correct just because he's a dev.
If it were me DMing, I would rebuild the AC as a cohort. For the most part, you should be able to duplicate its feats, abilities, etc. as you level it up. It's so much surer if you start this cohort NPC from scratch instead of trying to come up with a fair conversion. It's not that much work to do it this way. I haven't worked it out, but I have a feeling adding two HD to an AC would make its Cohort Level to high for you to qualify for anyway. Just rebuild it. That way, you know it's legit, and no one can accuse you of taking advantage, which is generally I personally see any effort like this. Awaken says that the animal is no longer a animal companion. Why make it complicated? Take 20 extra minutes to work it up and be firmly legal.
Trust me, I've spent the "20 extra min". The characters have similar power levels each way they are built. The higher str of the AC is countered by things like favored enemy and a higher base attack from class levels.
The awakened cohort would normally be too powerful, but being a pack master means that they are weaker to begin with. Thus it will be perfect for me to use as a cohort.