Inner Sea Gods feats


Rules Questions

51 to 70 of 70 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Yes, but the human player and the game element NPC can't exist as a game without the other. People are definitely more important outside the game, but in game all are contiguous parts to make the whole playable. If you put more emphasis on one, the whole is damaged.

I consider the NPCs and story elements the providence of the GM, and a good part of his fun as well as his toolset. Diminishing that toolset, by skewing all parts toward the players advantage, takes away from the GMs capability to make a good story. Some GMs can work around that, but not everyone. If I didn't have fun as a GM, even though my players were, I'd probably not be playing the game.

Liberty's Edge

MrSin wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
Faith isn't precisely magic. Gods pass normal limits.

No, I mean, its literally not magic. Magic follows rules in the game like shutting down in an AMF, so does supernatural and spell like, even if they're divine. These abilities would be noted if they were magical in effect.

Fomsie wrote:
And amazingly enough, some classes, spells or abilities are designed to have specific limitations and not just be an all you can eat buffet... have to make choices and sacrifices.
Well, there's "You need to choose a class that fits your style" and there's "You can use an axe or a sword" but there's also "but the sword is totally awesome and there's no good reason to choose the axe because the sword is Axe+2" and "And you need to arbitrarily worship this one setting specific deity to do this totally mundane but flavorful thing" and there's "And I won't work with you to do anything flavorful unless it was already in the book and if the book didn't say that in the first place I'd totally let you do it".

Maybe it would be better to say that you have to worship X in order to learn the feat? Stories abound with those that learned a style of fighting then abandon the church/jedi/nation and use the style against their former allies.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I really don't think there's going to be an either/or solution to this. In some cases you have feat options where the prerequisites make sense, then there are feat options that have unnecessarily restrictive prerequisites, and then there are feats where the restriction make no sense what-so-ever.

Courage in a Bottle is a good example of the first kind of feat. Cayden Cailean is, to the best of my knowledge, the only deity who includes both alcohol and bravery in his areas of concern. A feat that provides a benefit when you combine the two makes for a cool and very thematically appropriate option.

Diabolical Negotiator is a good example of the second kind of feat. While I find the feat very fitting for a worshipper of Asmodeus, I think it would also be a good fit for a character worshipping:

Iomedae (Goddess of Honor)
Irori (God of Self-perfection)
Mephistopheles (Archdevil of Contracts and Secrets)
Grundinnar (Dwarven God of Friendship and Peace)
Kols (Dwarven God of Duty, Honor and Promises)
Eritrice (Empyreal Lord of Debate, Opinions, Truth)
Seramaydiel (Empyreal Lord of Communication)
Zohls (Empyreal Lord of Truth)
Titivilus (Infernal Duke of Lies, Propaganda, Rhetoric)

Therefore I find the Asmodeus-only restriction needlessly restrictive.

Finally we have the third kind of feat, where the restrictions really doesn't make any sense. Advanced Defensive Combat Training is described as "You are a master at defending yourself from all manner of combat maneuvers", provides a +4 bonus to CMD, and it is only available to members of the Bellflower Network.

Apparently only secretive halfling slave liberators are interested in mastering the art of defending themselves from combat maneuvers?

If these feats came up at my table I'd keep the restriction on Courage in a Bottle, loosen the restrictions on Diabolical Negotiator to allow more deity options, and remove the faction restriction on Advanced Defensive Combat Training completely.

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:

I really don't think there's going to be an either/or solution to this. In some cases you have feat options where the prerequisites make sense, then there are feat options that have unnecessarily restrictive prerequisites, and then there are feats where the restriction make no sense what-so-ever.

Courage in a Bottle is a good example of the first kind of feat. Cayden Cailean is, to the best of my knowledge, the only deity who encompasses both alcohol and bravery. A feat that combines the two makes for a cool and very thematically appropriate option.

Diabolical Negotiator is a good example of the second kind of feat. While I find the feat very fitting for a worshipper of Asmodeus, I think it would also be a good fit for a character worshipping:

Iomedae (Goddess of Honor)
Irori (God of Self-perfection)
Mephistopheles (Archdevil of Contracts and Secrets)
Grundinnar (Dwarven God of Friendship and Peace)
Kols (Dwarven God of Duty, Honor and Promises)
Eritrice (Empyreal Lord of Debate, Opinions, Truth)
Seramaydiel (Empyreal Lord of Communication)
Zohls (Empyreal Lord of Truth)
Titivilus (Infernal Duke of Lies, Propaganda, Rhetoric)

Therefore I find the Asmodeus-only restriction needlessly restrictive.

Finally we have the third kind of feat, where the restrictions really doesn't make any sense. Advanced Defensive Combat Training is described as "You are a master at defending yourself from all manner of combat maneuvers", provides a +4 bonus to CMD, and it is only available to members of the Bellflower Network.

Apparently only secretive halfling slave liberators are interested in mastering the art of defending themselves from combat maneuvers?

If these feats came up at my table I'd keep the restriction on Courage in a Bottle, loosen the restrictions on Diabolical Negotiator to allow more deity options, and remove the faction restriction on Advanced Defensive Combat Training completely.

Specific gods can have their own secrets that are shared only with their worshipers. I think this is also a reason why we have some feats that don't have an actual physical restriction but a thematic one. It actually gives more depth to actually worshiping a specific deity.

I find this applies to specific groups as well. If a specific group teaches you a group specific secret that stays with in the group then that gives a bit more depth. I don't like when every like minded group under the sun knows the same things. I like a bit of variety and a bit of seclusion.


shallowsoul wrote:

Specific gods can have their own secrets that are shared only with their worshipers. I think this is also a reason why we have some feats that don't have an actual physical restriction but a thematic one. It actually gives more depth to actually worshiping a specific deity.

I find this applies to specific groups as well. If a specific group teaches you a group specific secret that stays with in the group then that gives a bit more depth. I don't like when every like minded group under the sun knows the same things. I like a bit of variety and a bit of seclusion.

...Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't mind feats being restricted to specific deities (see Courage in a Bottle) or specific organizations. However I would like there to be a logical reason for why this particular feat is only available to that particular deity.

I find it frustrating when the feat itself is very general, useful and fitting to many characters with a variety of backgrounds, but is now shackled to one particular deity or faction.

In this case, Wisdom to Diplomacy and being able to move a creature more than one step with Diplomacy is a great feat, but I don't see it particularly closely linked to Asmodeus vs the numerous other deities that deal with negotiation, mediation, communication, and so on. Therefore, I think it should be available to the other deities as well.

If the feat focused more closely on how Asmodeus uniquely uses Diplomacy, then I'd probably regard it differently.

All that said, people have different tastes. YMMV.

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Specific gods can have their own secrets that are shared only with their worshipers. I think this is also a reason why we have some feats that don't have an actual physical restriction but a thematic one. It actually gives more depth to actually worshiping a specific deity.

I find this applies to specific groups as well. If a specific group teaches you a group specific secret that stays with in the group then that gives a bit more depth. I don't like when every like minded group under the sun knows the same things. I like a bit of variety and a bit of seclusion.

...Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't mind feats being restricted to specific deities (see Courage in a Bottle) or specific organizations. However I would like there to be a logical reason for why this particular feat is only available to that particular deity.

I find it frustrating when the feat itself is very general, useful and fitting to many characters with a variety of backgrounds, but is now shackled to one particular deity or faction.

I understand where you are coming from but I believe the disconnect is in the bolded part. Just because a deity specific feat would be useful to the general public, doesn't mean it needs to shed it's restriction just for the sake of everyone being able to take it.


shallowsoul wrote:
I understand where you are coming from but I believe the disconnect is in the bolded part. Just because a deity specific feat would be useful to the general public, doesn't mean it needs to shed it's restriction just for the sake of everyone being able to take it.

That's not what I said. Please read the quote in context.

I don't mind a feat being restricted to a specific deity, but if it is restricted there should be a logical reason for it.

"Asmodeus is good at debating" isn't a logical reason for why only Asmodeus clerics get a feat that makes them good at diplomacy when I can easily name 10 other deities that have "good at debating" on their resume.

If a feat is restricted to a specific deity it should be because it is uniquely appropriate to that deity. "I'm good at diplomacy" is hardly a unique attribute.

An appropriate feat for a worshipper of Asmodeus could be something like "Initiate of Asmodeus":
Diabolical Negotiator - You gain a +4 Profane bonus to Diplomacy. This bonus increases to +8 if you have a the power to grant the target's deepest wishes (privy to GM adjudication).
Honor the Bargain - You gain the benefits of Smite Evil 1/day, but can only target creatures who refuse to honor a lawful contract you have previously made with them. You may smite creatures of any alignment with this power.
Insidious Influence - Irregardless of your alignment, you are not considered an evil character within the context of the "associations" section of the paladin's Code of Conduct.

That feat covers his approach to negotiation with an emphasis on shortcuts and temptation, how he views broken agreements, makes Asmodeus worshippers more palatable in a good-aligned party (Asmodeus is generally the only evil deity that is widely "accepted"), and helps explain how the Hellknight orders can have paladin members in good standing.

Moreover the format easily lends itself to creating multiple "initiate of x"-feats, each tailor-made to a specific deity. The other deities that also deal with debate and negotiation could get a similar bonus to diplomacy but with a different circumstance bonus as well as other powers uniquely designed for them.

Obviously the language needs to be cleaned up and I pulled the numbers out of a hat, but you get the idea.

Scarab Sages

I think there's another way to look at it. You can still accomplish a lot of what these feats make *easier*, for sure. Take Fey Friend. You can most definitely still become friendly with the fey-folk by being on good terms with them, respecting their ways, high Diplomacy, all that jazz. It just so happens that if you *also* worship the Eldest, well hey, that's a bonus, which is why you can take this feat.

Devilish Pride, while inherently prideful in name, is very much Asmodean tied by the mechanics. It's a bonus to your Will save against all non-Asmodeans. That one is fairly specific to the religion, though I'm sure a GM could re-skin it for other religions as needed. It just so happens that Asmodeus takes extra care to protect the minds and thoughts of his chosen few.

Potion Glutton? Yeah, don't really have anything there. Urgathoa is all about preaching gluttony, which is why maybe they've learned how to imbibe magical potions in a speedier manner... but less ties here.

In short, I think *most* of the religious feats in question make perfect sense the way they are. They by no means prevent people from getting similar bonuses or following similar paths.


Karui Kage wrote:
I think there's another way to look at it. You can still accomplish a lot of what these feats make *easier*, for sure. Take Fey Friend. You can most definitely still become friendly with the fey-folk by being on good terms with them, respecting their ways, high Diplomacy, all that jazz. It just so happens that if you *also* worship the Eldest, well hey, that's a bonus, which is why you can take this feat.

But of course you can't take a feat for that. That would be silly. You need to worship a god to know about them! Not spend your time with them or anything. At least not until they make another feat for that. Its also a somewhat weak feat. The big point is, this feat that's perfect for that guy? No dice! Unless you convert, but that can be compromising in itself. or houserule, but YMMV.

Karui Kage wrote:
Potion Glutton? Yeah, don't really have anything there. Urgathoa is all about preaching gluttony, which is why maybe they've learned how to imbibe magical potions in a speedier manner... but less ties here.

Urgothoa is gluttony and undeath yeah, so gluttony makes sense! But another thing is that the trait is ridiculously powerful and says that drinking a potion is normally a move. Lots of 'silly' there imo, but again, subjective.

Karui Kage wrote:
They by no means prevent people from getting similar bonuses or following similar paths.

Sort of, these feats at all may never get a reprint that says "Anyone can take them". In PFS of course there is no houserule option. Butterfly sting in particular got a "Convert or lose it" treatment. Ouch!


I will say, that despite not having problems with mechanical restrictions due to fluff/worshipped deity/story reasons, regarding issues with deities, I don't think as a designer I would have chosen 'feats' to be the mechanical thing to play with regarding deities. I'm not sure which mechanic would be more ideal, but I don't think 'feats' are the best choice due to the disconnect between extraordinary abilities and divine power.

@MrSin - in issues between a PC and a deity, if I'm unsure how best to handle a situation, I will err on the side of the player (because they are critically important to the game), but if I am sure regarding a mechanical issue I won't hesitate to apply it - even if it has detrimental effects on a given PC.

Scarab Sages

Quote:
But of course you can't take a feat for that. That would be silly. You need to worship a god to know about them! Not spend your time with them or anything. At least not until they make another feat for that. Its also a somewhat weak feat. The big point is, this feat that's perfect for that guy? No dice! Unless you convert, but that can be compromising in itself. or houserule, but YMMV.

Of course you can take a feat for it. Skill Focus, Persuasive, numerous traits. There are plenty of other ways to influence your diplomacy or sense motive or bluff. It just so happens that if you worship the Eldest, it adds an extra option and a convenient way to get a bonus on all three just for them.

If I recall, there's some first world themed traits, a first world themed summoner archetype, etc.

Again, these are all *options*. Ways to get a bonus. Very few of these are a feat that present the *only* way to get the mechanic in question, like Potion Glutton. I'm not defending all the religious feats, but they just represent such a small percentage of all the available options, and rarely seem to present incredibly unique bonuses (rarely). I just don't see them as a big issue. :S

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few posts. Let's not bring personal attacks/previous drama into the thread thanks.


MrSin wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
As for the making sense part, my understanding is that flavor wise you don't 'know' how to do these things, instead your Deity is granting you power/miracles/etc that allow them to happen. They are powered by Faith, you lose the faith, you lose the power.
They aren't magical, so that explanation is out.

The gods magically grant them, the ability itself exists only because the god allowed the character the knowledge.

It's like... imprinting skills (or feats). The god grants it, and will take it away if you stop worshiping them.

The ability itself isn't magical, just how it got granted.

Think of it as an instant effect spell, that the god can undo.

51 to 70 of 70 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Inner Sea Gods feats All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.