Bear in mind this is not talking about PvP.
Except that there's a trait for every save, which adds +1 or even more.NPC's don't get traits.
The issue of having DC's outpace saves only occurs if you play rocket tag or glass cannon.Nope, it applies as a natural outgrowth of offence being easier to boost than defence because offence is largely based on one stat while defence is based on 3.
Ah, so you're comparing how fast PLAYER CHARACTER DC's can outpace MONSTER Saves? Sure. No doubt that with all the extra books and stuff a optimized PC can blow away a straight AP equal CR creature.
Ok, but boosting offense with one attack (+4 Int say) and spending 16K gets you +2 to one form of attack, while spending 16K gets you +4 to all 3 saves. Thus defense is twice as easy to boost.
Heroism. Seems to be the biggest answer to how everyone brings the saves up. Heroism would grant a 10% shift on saves...
good save 60%.
poor save 30%.
Greater shifts it another 10%
good save 70%.
poor save 40%.
This is close to what I was hoping to see. Still crunching numbers, I want to see how this looks across levels.
Or I spent nothing since you can just cast Fox's Cunning.
Meh. It lasts only a short time. Are you gonna spend the first round of every combat casting it?
Meh. It lasts only a short time. Are you gonna spend the first round of every combat casting it?
Or I spent nothing since you can just cast Fox's Cunning.
Is your party scout competent?
Because that determines the efficacy of buffs.
This is interesting but it ignores the fact that Paizo NPC's and monsters are almost never min/max'd. In fact they are built to challenge very average 15 point build characters and often have "sub-par" builds based on the "story" and not number crunching.
This is really only an issue in PvP or if you have a GM creating his own monsters and NPC's and pumping them to the max because his players have done likewise in a never ending arms race.
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Ugh, let me look up the post I've been over this before...
Base line weakest saves in the game success rates from beta
Ah, found it: the thread you were looking for
Ugh, let me look up the post I've been over this before...
Base line weakest saves in the game success rates from beta
Ah, found it: the thread you were looking for
Thanks for the links Abraham, I really do appreciate everyone's help. It feels like one of those times when you have been doing something for so long and the "why" of it finally starts to become clear.
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Numbers Crunchified!
I used DEX/CON/WIS 10.
I gave a Cloak of Resistance with a bonus of 1/3 level maxing at 5 at 15th level.
I used Starting INT 16, Leveled up INT.
I gave the PC an Headband of Vast Intelligence of +2 at 9th, +4 at 14th, +6 at 17th.
Increasing base stats by 2 shifts save +5%
Feats shift save +10%
Stat booster can shift +5-15%
Heroism shifts +10%
Greater Heroism shifts +20%
Pale Green Ioun Stone shifts +5%
Luck Stone shifts +5%
- Level----------1
- Good Chance----40%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------2
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------3
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-35%
- Level----------4
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-35%
- Level----------5
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------6
- Good Chance----55%
- Average Chance-40%
- Level----------7
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-35%
- Level----------8
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-25%
- Level----------9
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------10
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------11
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-25%
- Level----------12
- Good Chance----55%
- Average Chance-35%
- Level----------13
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-25%
- Level----------14
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-25%
- Level----------15
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-30%
- Level----------16
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-20%
- Level----------17
- Good Chance----40%
- Average Chance-15%
- Level----------18
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-20%
- Level----------19
- Good Chance----45%
- Average Chance-20%
- Level----------20
- Good Chance----50%
- Average Chance-20%
I am trying to get a feel for how often people take the Save enhancing feats. If you get a chance please comment on this save feat thread.
Also, if you get a chance, please comment on these threads. I am trying to get a feel for what items people have at what level and where they want to end up.
Once again, thank you for your help.
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Caster DCs scale faster than Saves will. This makes Casters immensely powerful as eventually they can always target a bad save with a deadly effect.
The issue is not just casters and saving throws. A similar issue exists with AC and attack bonuses.
If your not involved in PvP, the issues is not how fast a player run caster can scale DC's. The issue that would need examination is how fast do encounter DC's scale when compared to player saves.
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@Broken: thanks for driving these topics. I'm also quite interested in the answers. I'm tinkering on an alternative for the Big Six, but I've been frustrated by a lack of data. See, most people agree that the power of the Big Six is factored into the CR of monsters; but I haven't gotten any consistent answers on what bonuses you're expected to have at given levels.
Caster DCs scale faster than Saves will. This makes Casters immensely powerful as eventually they can always target a bad save with a deadly effect.The issue is not just casters and saving throws. A similar issue exists with AC and attack bonuses.
If your not involved in PvP, the issues is not how fast a player run caster can scale DC's. The issue that would need examination is how fast do encounter DC's scale when compared to player saves.
Attack bonuses work that way by design: The question at high level isn't 'will my first attack hit', it's 'will my iterative attacks hit'.
Am I better off Power Attacking and hitting twice or not Power Attacking and hitting three times?The only thing that works like that for spellcasters is 'using lower level spells' (since you'll run out of your max spell level quickly if that's what you're doing every round). But a lower level spell is only 1-4 DC lower (If you're casting a spell five spell levels below your max, you're running out of gas. Usually those slots are used on passive buffs or attack spells that don't require saves.) That's still better than a martial's first iterative, comparatively speaking.
@Broken: thanks for driving these topics. I'm also quite interested in the answers. I'm tinkering on an alternative for the Big Six, but I've been frustrated by a lack of data. See, most people agree that the power of the Big Six is factored into the CR of monsters; but I haven't gotten any consistent answers on what bonuses you're expected to have at given levels.
Since Saturday I had started working down this very path. I think I have a viable fun solution that requires little change to the current system. I stumbled in its development on Sunday when I started looking at the big 6 caster "weapon".
I wanted to add a caster weapon that boosted to hit with spells and incremented the save DC of spells. That is where I fell into this rabbit hole.
As it stands, I feel the system I have been working on could be used to remove five of the common items.
Also in my development I only included a single stat booster into the level up process. Secondary stat boosters , if required would need to come from another source.
From a mile high view I feel that the changes could make for a more enjoyable game for players who are less into optimization. It also has the benefit of shrinking the Christmas tree effect, allowing non caster class to feel a little bit better about not needing "magic" to keep them viable. At least that is my opinion, I am partial.
My line of questions is me trying to understand the core principles of a successful character build, expectation of play success and rampant mining of the forum for knowledge and ideas.
Thank you guys, I will post my integrated big 6 theory after a little more R&D.
@Broken: thanks for driving these topics. I'm also quite interested in the answers. I'm tinkering on an alternative for the Big Six, but I've been frustrated by a lack of data. See, most people agree that the power of the Big Six is factored into the CR of monsters; but I haven't gotten any consistent answers on what bonuses you're expected to have at given levels.
Trailblazer has an analysis of that based on 3.5.
For instance, based on WBL and the usefulness of the big six it expects you to get a +2 stat enhancer at 6th, a +4 at 12th, and a +6 at 18th.
Trailblazer has an analysis of that based on 3.5.
For instance, based on WBL and the usefulness of the big six it expects you to get a +2 stat enhancer at 6th, a +4 at 12th, and a +6 at 18th.
Awesome! Maybe it has some of answers I am looking for.
Thank you Voadam.
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Caster DCs scale faster than Saves will. This makes Casters immensely powerful as eventually they can always target a bad save with a deadly effect.The issue is not just casters and saving throws. A similar issue exists with AC and attack bonuses.
If your not involved in PvP, the issues is not how fast a player run caster can scale DC's. The issue that would need examination is how fast do encounter DC's scale when compared to player saves.
Attack bonuses work that way by design: The question at high level isn't 'will my first attack hit', it's 'will my iterative attacks hit'.
Am I better off Power Attacking and hitting twice or not Power Attacking and hitting three times?
It has been stated that the reason NPC AC does not scale as rapidly as player attack bonuses is so that higher level players feel more powerful.
Why should this be any different for casters?
Caster DCs scale faster than Saves will. This makes Casters immensely powerful as eventually they can always target a bad save with a deadly effect.The issue is not just casters and saving throws. A similar issue exists with AC and attack bonuses.
If your not involved in PvP, the issues is not how fast a player run caster can scale DC's. The issue that would need examination is how fast do encounter DC's scale when compared to player saves.
Attack bonuses work that way by design: The question at high level isn't 'will my first attack hit', it's 'will my iterative attacks hit'.
Am I better off Power Attacking and hitting twice or not Power Attacking and hitting three times?It has been stated that the reason NPC AC does not scale as rapidly as player attack bonuses is so that higher level players feel more powerful.
Why should this be any different for casters?
I made no comment on 'should'. Just on what is.
But I suppose the point I was trying to say is that iterative attacks spread your benefit over several dice with wildly varying results: from no hits to four crits. Saving throws are much more all to nothing than attack rolls, and are never penalized as far as iteratives.
That means the math is a lot more of a knife edge than attacks rolls. A fighter who maxes out his attack roll to get +5 more than average gets one extra hit on his iteratives. A wizard who has a +5 on his DCs has a lot bigger of a change in his performance.
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I should probably point out the benefits to saving throws achieved by simply multiclassing. Base saves stack, and dipping a class or two can raise several saves by +2 or more each.
-Matt
Why should this be any different for casters?
One other thing: a fighter specializes in stabbing things with a pointy bit of metal (or in some cases, bludgeoning things with a heavy piece of metal). He gets to do more damage and stuff, but mostly he gets to 'feel more powerful' by being more assured of hitting.
A level 1 fighter has a good chance to miss an orc. A high level fighter will basically always hit the orc, and iteratives mean he has a decent chance to kill that orc's friends on the same turn. That feels more powerful.
Casters, instead, feel more powerful because they are getting more powerful effects. A first level wizard can conjure a magic missile that roughly replicates being stabbed by a strong person. A 5th level wizard can kill a room full of 'ordinary' people with a fireball instead. A high-level wizard can teleport, turn his foes into frogs, and generally warp reality to his whim.
Spellcasting has a built-in way to make low level and high level different: it doesn't need overwhelming chances of success, too.
I got an idea! Lets turn this on its head.
How often do you expect to pass your good save vs. a 1st level spell?
How often do you expect to pass your poor save vs. a 1st level spell?
Thank you for your help!
Whoops,
I meant if you were level 20.
How often should you pass a good/poor save vs. a level 1 spell?
Caster DCs scale faster than Saves will. This makes Casters immensely powerful as eventually they can always target a bad save with a deadly effect.The issue is not just casters and saving throws. A similar issue exists with AC and attack bonuses.
If your not involved in PvP, the issues is not how fast a player run caster can scale DC's. The issue that would need examination is how fast do encounter DC's scale when compared to player saves.
Attack bonuses work that way by design: The question at high level isn't 'will my first attack hit', it's 'will my iterative attacks hit'.
Am I better off Power Attacking and hitting twice or not Power Attacking and hitting three times?It has been stated that the reason NPC AC does not scale as rapidly as player attack bonuses is so that higher level players feel more powerful.
Why should this be any different for casters?
Because spells can be more all or nothing than hitting for hp damage. I agree that the issue is mostly enemy DCs against player saves but this is still a major issue as NPC casters are not uncommon. The effects of having NPC spellcasters be so powerful compared to PCs can be fairly negative and make players of higher level characters feel less powerful.